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Master Craftsman Feat. Help me Understand.


Rules Questions

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Aeshuura wrote:
This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Nah. You use your expert harlotry to persuade skilled craftsman to make you magic items at cost. It works mechanically and fluff-wise!

Hell, this might be my next character.

Grand Lodge

Dire Mongoose wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Nah. You use your expert harlotry to persuade skilled craftsman to make you magic items at cost. It works mechanically and fluff-wise!

Hell, this might be my next character.

Ok, in this special case, I'll allow it! ;p


Aeshuura wrote:
Charender wrote:


Then ignore that part about rings, that was beside my point. My point is that by RAW the craft skill you use doesn't have to have anything to do with the actualy thing being enchanted.

I could have 6 ranks in Profession:Harlot, take Master Craftsman for Profession: Harlot, get Craft Arms and Armor, and I can use my skill as a Harlot to craft a +2 sword.

This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Actually this is where the DM steps in and says read the feat description with a modicum of logic applied....

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.

Hello, and welcome to the forums.


Gallo wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
Charender wrote:


Then ignore that part about rings, that was beside my point. My point is that by RAW the craft skill you use doesn't have to have anything to do with the actualy thing being enchanted.

I could have 6 ranks in Profession:Harlot, take Master Craftsman for Profession: Harlot, get Craft Arms and Armor, and I can use my skill as a Harlot to craft a +2 sword.

This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Actually this is where the DM steps in and says read the feat description with a modicum of logic applied....

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.

Actually, you are reading the bolded section out of context and exactly backwards.

Spoiler:

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

That is the general rule about using skills to enchant items. The bolded sentence implies that you must use a skill appropiate to the item being enchanted or spellcraft.

Spoiler:

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

The section you bolded says you must use the skill for which you have master craftsman. That is a specific rule that overides a general rule. The specific rule in no way states or implies that you must use a skill that is appropiate to the task as hand...

That is RAW. Any craft or profession can be used to craft arms, armor, and wonderous items(with the appropiate feats). That interpretation allows you to have a master artist who draws beautiful art all over items, and makes them magical in the process or a master weaver who weaves magical threads into various items. It also allows you to have stupid things like enchanting with profession: animal husbandry. RAI, I would make the player come up with something that at least logically makes sense.


I think it can be read both ways. But does it really matter? It's not a great feat, has a pretty hefty cost, for a minor-to-moderate boon. Even in it's most liberal reading, it's not that great. In the stricter reading, it's suck-assiness 2 000.

And in the other thread on the matter, Craft: Armorsmithing was flavorfully used to describe crafting a magic ring, and Craft: Hairdresser was fantastically described being used to create magic armors.

Almost anything can be explained in a "rational" way, especially in a so magic-heavy world.

So, it can be read two ways.

Liberal reading:
- Feat is balanced.
- Fluff might be a little hard to explain in some cases.

Strict reading:
- Feat suxxorz.
- Fluff is often easy to describe, but on the other hand sometimes is unnessecary strict. You can't use profession (tanner) to make a magic leather armor, or proffession (herbalist) to make dust of appearance?

I know which reading I prefer, but it's mostly a matter of taste. Not really a big deal. How often will a PC pick this feat up, and how often will it be used in a "weird" way? And if a PC really, really, REALLY wants to be a cobbler so good he can use it to create magic weapons, are you really going to deny that because it might be a little hard to describe?

As long as a player isn't TRYING to disrupt the game by doing stupid things with this, there'll be no issue. And if he does, it won't matter if you solve this; he'll disrupt in it some other way. It's a player issue then, not a rules issue.


Charender wrote:


Actually, you are reading the bolded section out of context and exactly backwards.

Spoiler:

That is the general rule about using skills to enchant items. The bolded sentence implies that you must use a skill appropiate to the item being enchanted or spellcraft.

Spoiler:

The section you bolded says you must use the skill for which you have master craftsman. That is a specific rule that overides a general rule. The specific rule in no way states or implies that you must use a skill that is appropiate to the task as hand...
That is RAW. Any craft or profession can be used to craft arms, armor, and wonderous items(with the appropiate feats). That interpretation allows you to have a master artist who draws beautiful art all over items, and makes them magical in the process or a master weaver who weaves magical threads into various items. It also allows you to have stupid things like enchanting with profession: animal husbandry. RAI, I would make the player come up with something that at least logically makes sense.

Actually I'm quite comfortable that I am not.

If you think RAW means, for example that, a master leatherworker can enchant a sword's handgrip to make the sword magical then fill your boots (could you then swap the leather handgrip onto another sword to make that one magical?). Or that a master glassblower can put some pretty glass beading fringe on a breastplate to make it magical? But that does not make the actual sword or breastplate magical.

That enters the realms of the 3.5 ?weapon gems? (can't remember the exact name) where you could "plug in" things to your weapon to provide for a system of flexible, temporary weapon enhancements.

But to actually turn a lump of metal into a magical sword through the creator's skill alone (as an alternative to a spellcaster enchanting it) takes Craft" Weaponsmith.

Charender wrote:
That is RAW. Any craft or profession can be used to craft arms, armor, and wonderous items(with the appropiate feats). That interpretation allows you to have a master artist who draws beautiful art all over items, and makes them magical in the process or a master weaver who weaves magical threads into various items. It also allows you to have stupid things like enchanting with profession: animal husbandry. RAI, I would make the player come up with something that at least logically makes sense.

I agree a master weaver could make something like a Flying Carpet or a master leatherworker could create a Belt of Something-or-other. But just as a master swordsmith can't create a Handy Haversack, neither can a master leatherworker create a +1 Flaming Scimitar.

If that is what the Devs intended by the feat, then I'd love to get their thoughts on it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.
Hello, and welcome to the forums.

Thank you Mr Wolf :)

I actually follow these boards not because I am a total Pathfinder geek, but purely to get great examples to use in my day job in which I teach things like editing and reading comprehension skills to bureaucrats! Some of the extreme examples of obtuseness I encounter there have nothing on some of it on the boards.....


I think Lord oKOyA is Absolutely Spot On with the interuptation of this feat, furthermore all this guy or gal tried to do was help to answer a question someone had to see this person receieve this type of treatment for taking time out of his day to help a fellow gamer out is just sad.

Agree or disagree with the man, the whole magical item creation rules are not exactly the easiest to dicipher.

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