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Master Craftsman Feat. Help me Understand.


Rules Questions

51 to 72 of 72 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Aeshuura wrote:
This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Nah. You use your expert harlotry to persuade skilled craftsman to make you magic items at cost. It works mechanically and fluff-wise!

Hell, this might be my next character.

Grand Lodge

Dire Mongoose wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Nah. You use your expert harlotry to persuade skilled craftsman to make you magic items at cost. It works mechanically and fluff-wise!

Hell, this might be my next character.

Ok, in this special case, I'll allow it! ;p


Aeshuura wrote:
Charender wrote:


Then ignore that part about rings, that was beside my point. My point is that by RAW the craft skill you use doesn't have to have anything to do with the actualy thing being enchanted.

I could have 6 ranks in Profession:Harlot, take Master Craftsman for Profession: Harlot, get Craft Arms and Armor, and I can use my skill as a Harlot to craft a +2 sword.

This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Actually this is where the DM steps in and says read the feat description with a modicum of logic applied....

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.

Hello, and welcome to the forums.


Gallo wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
Charender wrote:


Then ignore that part about rings, that was beside my point. My point is that by RAW the craft skill you use doesn't have to have anything to do with the actualy thing being enchanted.

I could have 6 ranks in Profession:Harlot, take Master Craftsman for Profession: Harlot, get Craft Arms and Armor, and I can use my skill as a Harlot to craft a +2 sword.

This is when your GM should be stepping in and saying, I do not allow it. Because to allow this would be pure violation of the spirit of the rule. It just seems that it should be common sense. Don't you think so?

Actually this is where the DM steps in and says read the feat description with a modicum of logic applied....

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.

Actually, you are reading the bolded section out of context and exactly backwards.

Spoiler:

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

That is the general rule about using skills to enchant items. The bolded sentence implies that you must use a skill appropiate to the item being enchanted or spellcraft.

Spoiler:

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

The section you bolded says you must use the skill for which you have master craftsman. That is a specific rule that overides a general rule. The specific rule in no way states or implies that you must use a skill that is appropiate to the task as hand...

That is RAW. Any craft or profession can be used to craft arms, armor, and wonderous items(with the appropiate feats). That interpretation allows you to have a master artist who draws beautiful art all over items, and makes them magical in the process or a master weaver who weaves magical threads into various items. It also allows you to have stupid things like enchanting with profession: animal husbandry. RAI, I would make the player come up with something that at least logically makes sense.


I think it can be read both ways. But does it really matter? It's not a great feat, has a pretty hefty cost, for a minor-to-moderate boon. Even in it's most liberal reading, it's not that great. In the stricter reading, it's suck-assiness 2 000.

And in the other thread on the matter, Craft: Armorsmithing was flavorfully used to describe crafting a magic ring, and Craft: Hairdresser was fantastically described being used to create magic armors.

Almost anything can be explained in a "rational" way, especially in a so magic-heavy world.

So, it can be read two ways.

Liberal reading:
- Feat is balanced.
- Fluff might be a little hard to explain in some cases.

Strict reading:
- Feat suxxorz.
- Fluff is often easy to describe, but on the other hand sometimes is unnessecary strict. You can't use profession (tanner) to make a magic leather armor, or proffession (herbalist) to make dust of appearance?

I know which reading I prefer, but it's mostly a matter of taste. Not really a big deal. How often will a PC pick this feat up, and how often will it be used in a "weird" way? And if a PC really, really, REALLY wants to be a cobbler so good he can use it to create magic weapons, are you really going to deny that because it might be a little hard to describe?

As long as a player isn't TRYING to disrupt the game by doing stupid things with this, there'll be no issue. And if he does, it won't matter if you solve this; he'll disrupt in it some other way. It's a player issue then, not a rules issue.


Charender wrote:


Actually, you are reading the bolded section out of context and exactly backwards.

Spoiler:

That is the general rule about using skills to enchant items. The bolded sentence implies that you must use a skill appropiate to the item being enchanted or spellcraft.

Spoiler:

The section you bolded says you must use the skill for which you have master craftsman. That is a specific rule that overides a general rule. The specific rule in no way states or implies that you must use a skill that is appropiate to the task as hand...
That is RAW. Any craft or profession can be used to craft arms, armor, and wonderous items(with the appropiate feats). That interpretation allows you to have a master artist who draws beautiful art all over items, and makes them magical in the process or a master weaver who weaves magical threads into various items. It also allows you to have stupid things like enchanting with profession: animal husbandry. RAI, I would make the player come up with something that at least logically makes sense.

Actually I'm quite comfortable that I am not.

If you think RAW means, for example that, a master leatherworker can enchant a sword's handgrip to make the sword magical then fill your boots (could you then swap the leather handgrip onto another sword to make that one magical?). Or that a master glassblower can put some pretty glass beading fringe on a breastplate to make it magical? But that does not make the actual sword or breastplate magical.

That enters the realms of the 3.5 ?weapon gems? (can't remember the exact name) where you could "plug in" things to your weapon to provide for a system of flexible, temporary weapon enhancements.

But to actually turn a lump of metal into a magical sword through the creator's skill alone (as an alternative to a spellcaster enchanting it) takes Craft" Weaponsmith.

Charender wrote:
That is RAW. Any craft or profession can be used to craft arms, armor, and wonderous items(with the appropiate feats). That interpretation allows you to have a master artist who draws beautiful art all over items, and makes them magical in the process or a master weaver who weaves magical threads into various items. It also allows you to have stupid things like enchanting with profession: animal husbandry. RAI, I would make the player come up with something that at least logically makes sense.

I agree a master weaver could make something like a Flying Carpet or a master leatherworker could create a Belt of Something-or-other. But just as a master swordsmith can't create a Handy Haversack, neither can a master leatherworker create a +1 Flaming Scimitar.

If that is what the Devs intended by the feat, then I'd love to get their thoughts on it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Any reading of the feat to suggest you can use a craft skill completely unrelated to the magic item you are making would take the level of obtuseness on these boards to new lows.
Hello, and welcome to the forums.

Thank you Mr Wolf :)

I actually follow these boards not because I am a total Pathfinder geek, but purely to get great examples to use in my day job in which I teach things like editing and reading comprehension skills to bureaucrats! Some of the extreme examples of obtuseness I encounter there have nothing on some of it on the boards.....


I think Lord oKOyA is Absolutely Spot On with the interuptation of this feat, furthermore all this guy or gal tried to do was help to answer a question someone had to see this person receieve this type of treatment for taking time out of his day to help a fellow gamer out is just sad.

Agree or disagree with the man, the whole magical item creation rules are not exactly the easiest to dicipher.


Berselius wrote:

I like this custom ruling on the the feat in question much MUCH better to be frank. It makes it easier than having to purchase the same feat for each type of craft or profession skill over and over again:

Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: At least 2 Craft or Profession skills with at least 5 ranks each.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on any Craft or Profession skill you possess 5 ranks or more in. Ranks in such skills count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats; substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the appropriate craft or profession skill for the check to create the specified item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Also, if anyone just a little peeved that the Dwarven racial bonus on crafting stone, metal, and gemstone items is gone?

I like this idea, I'm going to ask my DM if they'll allow it.

Also I have to ask, why are peopel arguing to make this feat useless or restricted? I set myself a challenge to make a human fighter, the most boring "normal" race/class combination possible, and see if I could make a badass who wasn't useless outside of fighting and this feat seems the best way to do that, making a fighter who can also make the magic weapons, armor and other items (I chose craft clothing which means most wondrous items apart from jewelry and boots or shoes)


*Turn Unthread!*


Where is the -5 penalty for not having the spell coming from?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

People are not arguing to make the feat useless, people are arguing about what the feat is. And the feat is painfully less than useful as written. You can only take it once, you can only choose a single skill to use it with, you still have to take the Item Creation feats, and anyone who gets spells (12/19 base classes, not including the hybrids and alternates) only need the Item Creation feat and Spellcraft and can do everything their Item Creation feat allows.

Your mundane human fighter will never be able to make weapons and armor with Master Craftsman. You get to pick Craft (armor) or Craft (weapons), not both (I would use xor but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work as a real word).

It shouldn't be a -5 penalty, it should be a +5 to the DC for not having the prereqs (the spell prepared). "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet." Since a non-spellcaster can never have the spell prepared (though they should be able to get someone to supply it) they'll always need to increase the DC for not having the prereqs.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Your mundane human fighter will never be able to make weapons and armor with Master Craftsman. You get to pick Craft (armor) or Craft (weapons), not both (I would use xor but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work as a real word).

There isn't exactly a consensus on this. I cannot agree with this interpretation. In fact I'll go as far as to say that if you choose Craft (armour), you have to use Craft (armour) to enchant a sword, you absolutely cannot use Craft (weapons).

master craftsman wrote:
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.

The feat says you choose ONE skill. You use that ONE skill to qualify for Craft Arms and Armour AND Craft Wondrous Item. You MUST use that ONE skill to create any magic item using Craft Arms and Armour AND Craft Wondrous Items. That means yes you can use Profession (Restauranteur) to craft both a bag of holding and +5 full plate. There are absolutely no limitations on either the skill you choose or what feats/items it applies to.

It creates a specific exception to the normal craft item rules.


If you can show me where in the feat it creates that exception I'd love to see it. I see what you posted, "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." That's a restriction to what skill you can use for the check. Then if you go here you'll see that it specifies what skills you can use to make items.

Creating Magic Armor wrote:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
Creating Magic Weapons wrote:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).

You need to use the skill for making the item, no craft skill covers both armor and weapons.

Master Craftsman wrote:
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

This begins with a requirement to choose a skill, a bonus to that skill, a grant of an exception (ranks in skill count as caster level for qualifying for specific feats), an expansion to the previous statement that ranks also counts as CL while crafting, a restriction on how you can make the check, a clarification that certain rules still apply (increased DC for missing spell requirements), and a prohibition on certain items. The only exception granted is that ranks in the chosen Craft or Profession count as CL for the purpose of qualifying for Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Items. That's it.


It says you must use the chosen skill. It explicitly over-rides the skills in Craft Armour and Craft Weapons section.

The only skill you 'choose' is the one at the beginning of the Master Craftsman feat. So "must use the chosen skill" can only apply to the skill you chose when taking the Master Craftsman feat as the skills listed in the various craft feats aren't 'chosen' they are mandated.


dragonhunterq wrote:

It says you must use the chosen skill. It explicitly over-rides the skills in Craft Armour and Craft Weapons section.

The only skill you 'choose' is the one at the beginning of the Master Craftsman feat. So "must use the chosen skill" can only apply to the skill you chose when taking the Master Craftsman feat as the skills listed in the various craft feats aren't 'chosen' they are mandated.

...none of that provides an exception. Let me highlight it differently. "must use the chosen skill". So it requires you to use the skill you chose. It doesn't expand what the skill can do. Restriction, not exception.


Ok, so even if you disagree with me in the belief that explicitly it over-rides the normal craft rules lets try this: There are absolutely ZERO ways to use profession to create magic items, yet this feat let's you choose a profession skill - ANY profession skill - and use it to create magic items. If you could only select skills appropriate to the specific magic item the feat should not allow you to select an entire skill that is COMPLETELY unusable. That goes beyond an oversight/editing error/misunderstanding of the rules by the designer. It clearly goes to intent.

Also, It states you must use the chosen skill, nowhere does it say that the chosen skill must be appropriate to the item you are creating. Everything about the feat substitutes your chosen skill. This in totality over-rides the general rules.

But that is why I said no consensus. I doubt I'll persuade you and I haven't read anything yet that persuades me.


As someone already stated, profession: blacksmith, done.


_Ozy_ wrote:
As someone already stated, profession: blacksmith, done.

Unfortunately not, either it's irrelevant under my interpretation or doesn't work under the alternative. Either you can use any skill or you have to use the appropriate skill:

Creating Magic Armor wrote:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
Creating Magic Weapons wrote:
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).


Specific overrides general. The craftsman feat says that ranks in profession can be used.

Therefore, ranks in profession can be used.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Specific overrides general. The craftsman feat says that ranks in profession can be used.

Therefore, ranks in profession can be used.

That's what I maintain, but it doesn't have to be (blacksmith), it can be (hairdresser) for all the rules that care about it.

(not that I'd personally allow (hairdresser), as Charender says upthread I'd need some justification)

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