Playing a cleric of Zyphys


Pathfinder Society

Shadow Lodge 5/5

I've always liked somewhat negative, but not outright evil clerics. After much reading (and what little reading there is for the lesser gods), I've found that I like the pantheon of Zyphys quite a bit. Graveyards, accidental death and tragedy? Sign me up! Unfortunately after reading the actual background of the God I was heartbroken as it just didn't fit what I expected at all. Furthermore, I know for PFS play I cannot be evil (which is fine, I never wanted to be).

So here's my question. Could a character with this same exact misunderstanding as a PFS character? I would play him as a Neutral (alignment wise) priest of Zyphus that believes in the concepts of accidental death, watching over graveyards, and most importantly the importance of learning through tragedy but who fundamentally doesn't understand why the God is doing what he's doing. Basically he'd ignore all the negatives as "false lies perpetuated by a jealous Pharasma trying to extend her reach). Would you be upset if I sat down at your table? Am I fundamentally misunderstanding how the gods and their priests work? What do you think?

Dark Archive 4/5

MisterSlanky wrote:

I've always liked somewhat negative, but not outright evil clerics. After much reading (and what little reading there is for the lesser gods), I've found that I like the pantheon of Zyphys quite a bit. Graveyards, accidental death and tragedy? Sign me up! Unfortunately after reading the actual background of the God I was heartbroken as it just didn't fit what I expected at all. Furthermore, I know for PFS play I cannot be evil (which is fine, I never wanted to be).

So here's my question. Could a character with this same exact misunderstanding as a PFS character? I would play him as a Neutral (alignment wise) priest of Zyphus that believes in the concepts of accidental death, watching over graveyards, and most importantly the importance of learning through tragedy but who fundamentally doesn't understand why the God is doing what he's doing. Basically he'd ignore all the negatives as "false lies perpetuated by a jealous Pharasma trying to extend her reach). Would you be upset if I sat down at your table? Am I fundamentally misunderstanding how the gods and their priests work? What do you think?

From the campaign guide: You may choose to worship an evil god, but keep in mind that your alignment has to be within one step of your god’s alignment. For clerics, this is an especially important choice since their choice of deity influences their ability to either channel good or negative energy

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Todd Morgan wrote:
From the campaign guide: You may choose to worship an evil god, but keep in mind that your alignment has to be within one step of your god’s alignment. For clerics, this is an especially important choice since their choice of deity influences their ability to either channel good or negative energy

I understand rules from an alignment/don't play evil perspective (which is why I planned on being neutral); I guess I'm looking for a bit more of a "fluff" based response. Would my perspective character make your GM cringe in horror or would I somehow be violating the spirit of the law.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

We've got a few negative but not evil gods to choose from in the setting; Calistria and Gorum spring immediately to mind, but some of the minor gods like Besmara, Sivanah, Hanspur, or Groetus should also work well... if you want to play up the anti-Pharasmin angle, Groetus is actually a great choice. Zyphus, though, is a pretty obvious bad guy.

The only way I see this type of Zyphus priest working at all is if he's basically a heretic. Which is in and of itself kind of interesting... but probably beyond the scope of the PFS to be able to really handle.

The BIG issue, of course, is that evil gods are often used to spur cultists and bad guys in the game. By saying "you shouldn't worship evil deities" in the PFS, we're not only trying to prevent PVP activity, but also awkwardness when, say, your cleric of Zyphus might end up going on an adventure where the plot is "wipe out this Zyphus cult."

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Thanks James. I like putting the twist on the characters sometimes, but you're right, I've already been involved in helping wipe out one cult, I'd hate to have to count myself amongst the casualties in some future endeavor.

In your opinion, would you consider Zyphys and Rovagug the two to keep away from or are there others (in general that is)?

And what the heck are you doing answering posts on a Sunday night?


MisterSlanky wrote:
In your opinion, would you consider Zyphys and Rovagug the two to keep away from or are there others (in general that is)?

I think Lamashtu, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon are probably also on that list as well, though a creative character concept could make them work. I have a Kuthite monk who's into self-mutilation to improve herself and condition herself for the inevitable pains of life. Yeah, she's a cutter. But she has no problem going after a Kuthite cult, because they tend to want to hurt others instead of using pain to better themselves. Anyway, any evil god is going to be a challenge to play in some situations and with some fellow players. It's tough to avoid Asmodeus, since Cheliax is one of the five factions. I think he's the only evil deity that one can easily play in PFS, as long as you focus on his lawful as opposed to evil tendencies.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

MisterSlanky wrote:
In your opinion, would you consider Zyphys and Rovagug the two to keep away from or are there others (in general that is)?

I would actually keep away from ALL evil deities. They're evil for a reason, after all.

MisterSlanky wrote:
And what the heck are you doing answering posts on a Sunday night?

Taking a time out from working on Pathfinder #35! POW! :-)

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

James Jacobs wrote:
I would actually keep away from ALL evil deities. They're evil for a reason, after all.

And as they're evil, I think you're given some leeway for being selfish and watching as your god's "lesser" followers fall be the wayside, perhaps even participating in that fall. Leaves more room for you at the top, that way...

In all seriousness, though, the evil gods have the fun domains: darkness, madness, destruction, and trickery to name a few. I think you can work out a sound reasoning for worshipping who you worship (as you have done, Misterslanky) and get away with it. After all, look at all the Chelaxian faction players who worship Asmodeus. Is he okay for PCs simply because he's a "major" god as opposed to a minor god?

You can promote your god's desires in small ways and still be true to your party at any given table. There are a lot of different things that each god pays attention to. I would think that each person pays more attention to certain aspects than others. Even in modern Christianity, there are plenty of people who think it's okay to kill out of hand, so long as that person is not a "right thinking" Christian themselves. But, I'm pretty sure there's a little Commandment that is rather black and white about that act...

At any rate, if Paizo doesn't want players figuring out ways (in character) to worship evil gods, then that needs to be written into the Society rules: "There are plenty of gods in the pantheon of Golarion. One must be chosen, though evil gods are expressly forbidden."

Lantern Lodge

Based on the newest guide to organized play (v2.2) the only legal gods are:

table 7-2 pg. 18 of the guide to the pathfinder society

all on front cover of Dwarves of Golarion

pg. 10 of Elvels of Golarion

inside front cover of Gnomes of Golarion

inside cover of Gods and Magic

That's it so if your god is within any of the above legal sources then you're good as long as you are within you alignment restriction. The reasoning for stating a limitation of dieties is listed on pg. 19 of the guide to organized play under Selecting a Diety:

"dealing in abstract clerics is not something we want to see in an environment that’s supporting Paizo’s campaign setting."

Now, an easy confusion is that also on pg. 19 it states:

"The Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting has a rich assortment of
deities to choose from that should nearly always match the sort of cleric you’re trying to play"

For future note, this should probably be changed to "The World of Golarion ... " to avoid confusion with players thinking they may take any diety listed in the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting as no dieties from that book are legal for play unless they are also in the above legal sources.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Wow, didn't expect this one to have such a lively discussion.

I appreciate what James is saying, to an extent. He has a very good point - certain gods (especially those who's followers tend towards cultish behavior) may be extraordinarily difficult to play in PFS. I've already been tasked with rooting out and killing those involved with one evil deity during my current character's adventures, and I could easily see it happening again. This can put undo stress on a group in an setting where you may not be familiar with all the other players at the table, and frankly in PFS, I'm more inclined to help rather than harm group dynamics. One half of the reason I asked the question in the first place was because a cleric of Zyphus could cause far too much aggravation at a table, which I'd like to avoid.

What I'm not so sure I agree with is the statement that we should avoid following evil gods. The first thing I thought of was, "what about all those clerics of Asmodeus I've seen"? Additionally, as has been mentioned there are a lot of fun domains that won't ever see the light of day if we can't play with an evil god.

The other reason I asked the question was a strictly theoretical one, which I think James is uniquely qualified to answer. That question is, "is it possible to play clerics of a god who follow the god's tenants, but don't follow them in the same way as the majority of its followers". I hadn't thought the heretic angle, and I think that's an interesting way to take things. Will I do it for PFS? I'm still not sure. Zyphus is permitted under PFS play. It says so in the Guide to Organized Play where it states we can use any god from the cover of "Gods and Magic". However, just because it's permitted though doesn't mean that it's a good idea, which I think James has a very good point on.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

MisterSlanky wrote:
Wow, didn't expect this one to have such a lively discussion.

You didn't see all those threads on evil characters, did you? O.o

Personally, I would never want to play an evil character, or even a morally ambiguous one, in PFS play. Really, I wouldn't want to play one, ever, unless I had a compelling reason to (and you came up with a fun one - and then James came up with the heretic angle, which is fun as well).

However, the rules are open to the idea of it, and PFS in particular allows evil gods to be worshipped. So, I agree with questioning the stance that was made of, "No evil gods, period," because you're right: there are a ton of Chelaxian clerics of Asmodeus. I've even been at a table with a cleric of Norgorber. You can't say those gods are legal for play, then question people's motives when they want to play a worshipper of one of the minor evil gods.

Moreover, there are multiple adventures published by this company where one of the pregenerated characters is evil. If Paizo can justify that he's okay being in there doing good deeds (because, face it, any adventure is written around the concept of saving something or someone), then why can't one of these clerics we're talking about? And if the concern is the other players at the table, consider that, in those published adventures, Paizo teams that evil character up with a paladin. To me, that's a pretty good implication that this company believes that selfishness can get along with righteousness at the same table.

I say you give your guy a whirl. I'd enjoy seeing how he turned out. I'm pretty sure that we're all capable of coming up with reasons, in character, to work together. Even Republicans get along with Democrats. If you get presented with a situation where you're fighting your own god or his worshippers, figure out whether it serves your purpose. If it doesn't "recuse" yourself.

Dark Archive 4/5

MisterSlanky wrote:
Will I do it for PFS? I'm still not sure.

Go on, you know you want to ...

Cheers,
Slip

The Exchange 5/5

MisterSlanky wrote:

Wow, didn't expect this one to have such a lively discussion.

I appreciate what James is saying, to an extent. He has a very good point - certain gods (especially those who's followers tend towards cultish behavior) may be extraordinarily difficult to play in PFS. I've already been tasked with rooting out and killing those involved with one evil deity during my current character's adventures, and I could easily see it happening again. This can put undo stress on a group in an setting where you may not be familiar with all the other players at the table, and frankly in PFS, I'm more inclined to help rather than harm group dynamics. One half of the reason I asked the question in the first place was because a cleric of Zyphus could cause far too much aggravation at a table, which I'd like to avoid.

What I'm not so sure I agree with is the statement that we should avoid following evil gods. The first thing I thought of was, "what about all those clerics of Asmodeus I've seen"? Additionally, as has been mentioned there are a lot of fun domains that won't ever see the light of day if we can't play with an evil god.

The other reason I asked the question was a strictly theoretical one, which I think James is uniquely qualified to answer. That question is, "is it possible to play clerics of a god who follow the god's tenants, but don't follow them in the same way as the majority of its followers". I hadn't thought the heretic angle, and I think that's an interesting way to take things. Will I do it for PFS? I'm still not sure. Zyphus is permitted under PFS play. It says so in the Guide to Organized Play where it states we can use any god from the cover of "Gods and Magic". However, just because it's permitted though doesn't mean that it's a good idea, which I think James has a very good point on.

I'd likewise encourage you not to try playing a follower of an evil deity unless you plan on doing so amongst your friends at a private PFS table. I've been involved in PFS for a while and had to mediate a fair number of disputes due to one player wanting to do something off-color and the rest of the table opposing the idea. Typically the "evil" player is just someone who wants attention and enjoys engaging in arguments about what the rules allow and don't allow. I'm not saying you are that sort of person Slanky, but that's the label that may be applied. It can consume time at the convention or gameday table and diminish the enjoyment for other players who don't enjoy arguments. For those reasons I'd suggest sticking to a mainstream, socially-acceptable evil deity like Asmodeus :)


I am curious about something. Since James has posted here, was this thread originally made in another forum and then moved here to the PFS forum? Because while James, and many others, are the official voice for Pathfinder in general, when it comes to PFS it is Joshua that is the official voice, as well as a couple of others he has named official answer givers, like Doug Doug.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
I am curious about something. Since James has posted here, was this thread originally made in another forum and then moved here to the PFS forum? Because while James, and many others, are the official voice for Pathfinder in general, when it comes to PFS it is Joshua that is the official voice, as well as a couple of others he has named official answer givers, like Doug Doug.

This thread was not moved, James just posted on it out of his own volition. While I appreciate that Josh is the head of PFS and his rulings stand, since what I'm talking is world-based, not rule based, I think his opinions go a long ways. I don't agree with them 100%, but I think his answer is fairly official given the topic.

Lantern Lodge

MisterSlanky wrote:


This thread was not moved, James just posted on it out of his own volition. While I appreciate that Josh is the head of PFS and his rulings stand, since what I'm talking is world-based, not rule based, I think his opinions go a long ways. I don't agree with them 100%, but I think his answer is fairly official given the topic.

Well, if this character is for the PFS then have to follow the guidelines within the guide for organized play period. Bear in mind that some dieties may be restricted due to the domains/ domain combinations they have access to in order to maintain balance. Also, a cleric is supposed to be a living entity of their god's will and for that the diety empowers him or her with all the cleric abilities. So if you are playing a heretic who doesn't fully comprehend a God's beliefs, then I don't think that God would empower the individual.


If you want to play the cleric of an evil deity in Pathfinder Society, that's totally legal within the boundaries of the PFS rules and legally-allowed deity sources.

Just remember a good rule for playing the cleric of an evil deity: don't play that character as an excuse to be a jerk.

Beyond that, good luck! Have fun!

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

If you want to play the cleric of an evil deity in Pathfinder Society, that's totally legal within the boundaries of the PFS rules and legally-allowed deity sources.

Just remember a good rule for playing the cleric of an evil deity: don't play that character as an excuse to be a jerk.

Beyond that, good luck! Have fun!

I was thinking more of a depressing morbid "Marvin the Robot" type, not a jerk.

"Oh woe to those who die an untimely death" *tends to his graveyard*. I'll think about working the heretic angle.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Just remember a good rule for playing the cleric of an evil deity: don't play that character as an excuse to be a jerk.

See, I don't think they need to be playing an evil god's cleric to be a jerk. Most of the people who are jerks don't even look for an excuse. And if you're playing a cleric of an evil god, Slanky, and you're a nice guy at the table, you have an edge on the jerk playing the paladin, frankly. If you're fun at the table, and know how to be a team player, I'd even be willing to let your character be a jerk, just because you're a nice guy. The jerk with the paladin? Not so much...

So, like The Man said:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Beyond that, good luck! Have fun!

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