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I was surprised that I couldn't find a thread for this, though less so as I thought about it. Overall, this was an awesome mission. I ran it for a group of mine about a week ago and they loved it. The maze was creative, the boss was very cool, overall it was just a lot of fun.
There was only one question I could think of right now, maybe another one or two later if I remember them. Namely, when the PCs go into the maze, how long does each attempted check take? One part says each check takes an hour, but then the next paragraph or so says that each check takes 10 minutes. I went with the former, which led to a few people getting fatigued from lack of sleep. Which one should it have been?
And again, Crystal, awesome job at this mission!
It should be 1 hour for each check, which means it's possible the PCs rest in the maze.
It should read:
Finding the center of the Tangle requires 10 successful skill checks using the possible skills listed below. Every check represents 1 hour of travel while searching for clues. For each check, one PC is chosen to be the “Leader.” Only the Leader can make the relevant skill check to guide
her companions for that 1-hour block.
I'll fix that in the PDF tomorrow.
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Sweet, thanks Josh. Yeah, the PCs wanted to rest but a few were worried that if they took too long then their minotaur might be in greater danger. They rested for an hour after fighting the Whisperer so that one of them could get from Exhausted back to Fatigued, then charged in. They didn't think about using Lesser Restorations to get rid of the Fatigue itself, heh. Made the last encounter that much more interesting though!
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Maze? What maze?
At least the party did get a little surprise. The morlock led them into the room for the void whisperer without mentioning it. Believing in his insanity that he is immortal, and this is just the way it is, he marched on. Everyone pops into the void, and the party freaks as they see the gibbering mouther. The random die roll for attacking direction actually hits the morlock, and he dies in the first round. Well, the fight was tough, but the party makes it through with the bard and cleric temporarily blinded. After popping back into reality, the morlock stands up, shakes his head, and says "Wasn't that a ride!", then leads them into the next room and unlocks the intelligent door without setting off the trap. In the end, the morlock earns himself a silver holy symbol of Calistria for all his good work as well as ownership of the maze.
HAHA! Great story!
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Ok. I will keep that in mind for next time. Since I am still working on my first star as a GM, I didn't catch it.
But, I did manage to keep them busy in the last fight for ten rounds.
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The door went really easy for the party I ran for last weekend. The highest Int check I rolled was a 9. Easily beaten by the party Wizard.
The last fight was a bear though.
It did feel like getting thru the maze was a 4E skill challenge though.
My one major beef (and my players) was the Quadiran faction's
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I ran this yesterday with Tier 1-2.
Some lucky rolls and a well organised group powered through it in close to 3 hours.
The final encounter was cut short when the Ranger of the party won initiative and got off a critical longbow shot.
I guess when you write a Scenario you can't prepare for something like that!
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Ran this the other day.
I thought the design of the adventure was really well done and the BBEG fight was just freaking awesome.
However!
2nd and 3rd level PCs...
The PCs quickly grew weary of the maze. It took them 36 rolls to get through the maze. That meant 26 random encounters, which was essentially one trap after another repeat ad nauseum. They used a LOT of charges on their cure light wand. They also had to stop and rest.
When they came to the clever door, their response was a unanimous groan of disbelief that there was yet another puzzle. The room quickly flooded as they would close a water vent then manage to reopen it. Within 10 rounds they had not managed to get more than one vent shut off at a time. I finally allowed them to take 20 five times in a row just to get through the door (They had managed to get everyone hit with Water Breathing in time).
For the maze, I would have liked to seen either fewer checks required or a lower DC. I think this was really the most clever part of the scenario (a fantastic way to treat a maze). It just required too many successes at too high a DC.
I really enjoyed the concept of the Door, but after so much time spent with the maze, its flavor was lost on the party.
But everyone agreed the BBEG fight was a BLAST. Cthulhu-punk at its best really.
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Ah, you missed something...** spoiler omitted **
Yep missed that... If I had seen that it would have been a MUCH better game.
SOOOOOO it comes down to I just missed a key piece to making that maze fantastic.... dang it! lol :)
[Edit]: Wish that had been placed in the boxed text. So it would have been easier to see. :)
So, ummmm my bad! :)
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Reading over Abysiel's stat block again and trying to envision how his Site Mastery (Su) is going to play out. It says 'As a move action, he may move any one of the following ...'
1) So if he takes a double move and no standard action he could use this twice? Can he also activate Site Mastery as a standard action?
2) Specifically for Paneling, once this is moved into place he is free to use the other two benefits of Site Mastery without causing this to change? The Paneling only needs to change if he wanted to block a different 1/4 of the chamber?
So round 1 he could do something like: move action to activate the paneling to the front 1/4 of the room (towards where the PCs enter) and then take a 2nd move action (or standard?) to use Pendulums attack on an obvious caster?
Round 2 casting hypnotism on the tanks and use a move action ready an Pendulums attack on a caster trying to cast?
If he grapples someone with the chains and burns his standard to maintain that what would be the damage he could inflict?
Any other practical advice from GMs who have run this already on how to get the most out of the totally awesome opponent?
1) So if he takes a double move and no standard action he could use this twice? Can he also activate Site Mastery as a standard action?
He can only use his Site Mastery ability as a move action (his only available standard actions are spells and his ray ability). He can do two move actions in a round, so he could activate Site Mastery twice.
2) Specifically for Paneling, once this is moved into place he is free to use the other two benefits of Site Mastery without causing this to change? The Paneling only needs to change if he wanted to block a different 1/4 of the chamber?
Correct. Once he sets the panel in place to gain full cover from that 1/4 of the room, it's there unless he takes another move action to move it.
So round 1 he could do something like: move action to activate the paneling to the front 1/4 of the room (towards where the PCs enter) and then take a 2nd move action (or standard?) to use Pendulums attack on an obvious caster?
Keep in mind that if he moves the panel to give himself total cover from the PCs, then they have total cover to him too (unless they're on the catwalk, which is a good reason to get to the catwalk). A better strategy would be to his a PC with the pendulum and then move the panels to block the PCs.
Round 2 casting hypnotism on the tanks and use a move action ready an Pendulums attack on a caster trying to cast?
Keep in mind, again, how total cover and spells work.
If he grapples someone with the chains and burns his standard to maintain that what would be the damage he could inflict?
The chains ability functions exactly like the animate rope spell.
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Also, two factions (Cheliax & Osirion) need to make maps. Why is the Osirion essentially an auto-success, but the Cheliax has to make a trained-only (Knowledge-Geography) skill check?
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I have played and now read the scenario.
I was delighted to see my half-orc monk have use of his scent ability, which I picked up for him with Keen Scent feat. I had thought this feat would never come to use.
The scenario had a very nice atmosphere to it, and the short descriptions inserted each time we succeeded in the navigation roll gave the story a nice touch, reviving it a bit and separating it from the dull dungeon crawls I'm so fed up with. The fights felt a little too easy even though we only had 4 characters in the group, one of which was my 2nd level monk. Scenario writers should avoid fights against a single opponent. Kudos for the final fight though, placing Abysiel outside melee attackers' reach at the beginning was a good move. Site Mastery was a good call, and the numerous skill checks needed to approach the enemy were all nice little details. So I give an A for the end combat.
I do have nitpicks about the scenario though:
* The DCs for navigating in the labyrinth are way over the top for Tier 1-2. A skill check DC 25 means the PCs normally succeed 10% of the time. And considering the other PCs can help only with the corresponding skill, it eliminates all knowledge checks (at least so a sane person would do).
* Scent ability can be used for tracking, and that's normally where it is used. According to Scent, a creature with survival can track with scent. Using this logic, the possible +5 bonus should have applied to Survival, not Perception. A ranger with track and an animal companion with scent would be in an odd situation, as the animal companion's scent wouldn't ease the task at all.
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I ran this scenario on Saturday and bumped into a few things.
On Tier 4-5 the combats excluding the last are woefully easy (I skipped the optional encounter). Six AC15/hp6 beetles on Tier 4-5 were a pain only because they managed to make partial charges and I rolled well.
Also on Tier 4-5 solving the labyrinth is a lot easier than on Tier 1-2. Lowest roll was 22, and thus they never bumped into any resistance. It was kind of dull.
The end fight was alright, but I noticed site mastery says I use grapple as if with animate rope. But how does grapple work with animate rope? Didn't find any mention and concluded that I use Abysiel's CMB (a weak +2).
Also the faction missions are rather dreadful. I had a table consisting 1 Qadiran, 1 Chelaxian, and 3 Taldans. All of them received only 1 PA point. Chelaxian didn't have Knowledge (geography), Qadira didn't have Handle Animal (though he had some help from others, a paladin rolled 19, didn't make it), and the Taldans didn't get their ring without anyone realizing it.
And that's where I have the problem. A DC 20 Sleight of Hand is justifiable if there are people there to notice. I understand this includes Nuar. Still I don't think it's impossible to take Nuar out of the count by either casting sleep or something. Since there would be no one realizing it, should they even roll for it?
Also the Andoran faction mission clearly speaks of Abysiel Greensummer. The scenario doesn't at any point tell about the person. Venture-Captain Drandle Dreng doesn't recognize the name. WTF?!
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Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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Also the Andoran faction mission clearly speaks of Abysiel Greensummer. The scenario doesn't at any point tell about the person. Venture-Captain Drandle Dreng doesn't recognize the name. WTF?!
If you look at the BBEG, his name is Abysiel. Andoran's just need to bring his body back after you kill him. At the end of the scenario, it lists what the PCs need to accomplish and how to do so. I played through this as an Andoran and was kinda surprised that I needed to pay "proper respects" to the guy that was trying to kill us ;)
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If you look at the BBEG, his name is Abysiel. Andoran's just need to bring his body back after you kill him. At the end of the scenario, it lists what the PCs need to accomplish and how to do so. I played through this as an Andoran and was kinda surprised that I needed to pay "proper respects" to the guy that was trying to kill us ;)Also the Andoran faction mission clearly speaks of Abysiel Greensummer. The scenario doesn't at any point tell about the person. Venture-Captain Drandle Dreng doesn't recognize the name. WTF?!
I know the BBEG is Abysiel. But the PCs are never really told that. If anyone Dreng should be the one who knows this.
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Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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I know the BBEG is Abysiel. But the PCs are never really told that. If anyone Dreng should be the one who knows this.
You should play up the fact that the ledger that Cheliax factions members find in Abysiel's Chamber describes who the elf they just fought was, without going into the details that Cheliax is trying to hide.
Delirium's Tangle[/b]]
Abysiel’s ledger rests in plain sight on one of the
chamber’s many workbenches, and contains vague but
incriminating details about how the elf acquired Izryen’s
Hourglass from an antiquities trader from House Thrune
long ago. PCs from the Cheliax faction must see this
ledger destroyed to protect their ruling family’s tenuous
diplomatic relations with Kyonin.
Even running without Cheliax members, you should mention they find the ledger and descibe what it says.
Dreng really shouldn't have any knowledge of who Abysiel is, as he apparently had no idea the maze existed until Grandmaster Torch approached him about the missing Nuar. Even then, Torch only mentions the Maze is of elven design.
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Dreng really shouldn't have any knowledge of who Abysiel is, as he apparently had no idea the maze existed until Grandmaster Torch approached him about the missing Nuar. Even then, Torch only mentions the Maze is of elven design.
Exactly. Dreng shouldn't know about Abysiel since apparently this huge maze below Absalom was a new thing. But what I'm arguing is that the Andoran faction head, Captain Aldrin Moldis or something rather shouldn't know this either!
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Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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But what I'm arguing is that the Andoran faction head, Captain Aldrin Moldis or something rather shouldn't know this either!
[His name is Cpt. Colson Maldris FYI ;)]
You are correct, in that Maldris "shouldn't" know about the maze, but an argument could be made that the knowledge was on a "need to know" basis, and Dreng didn't need to know.
One could also say that one of Maldris' contact's came into some information, sold by a Sanitarium employee, about the ramblings of a patient. This contact passed the info onto Maldris, who had knowledge of a missing elf centuries ago from his contacts in Kyonin. Tiny bits of information that once put together created a faction mission =)
Really, the mission does show a "bit" of metagaming, but you can work around this and make it fit into the story, assuming any Andoran bothers to question in the first place.
I do have nitpicks about the scenario though:
* The DCs for navigating in the labyrinth are way over the top for Tier 1-2. A skill check DC 25 means the PCs normally succeed 10% of the time. And considering the other PCs can help only with the corresponding skill, it eliminates all knowledge checks (at least so a sane person would do).
Ironically, I played it with a level 1 PC who had a +15 Perception modifier (half-elf with Skill Focus and high Wis), so we just took 10 on every check. The maze ended up being a bit anticlimactic.
Hogarth,
Is this how your PC got the +15 Perception:
1 rank
+3 class skill
+3 untyped bonus (skill focus)
+2 racial bonus (half-elf)
+1 trait bonus?
and then
+5 Wisdom bonus (buying 18 Wisdom, plus 2 to that ability score)
Yes. The trait is the Osirion one that makes Perception a class skill.
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I’m writing down some details from my session a few months ago to give the organizers an idea of what I expect from PFS scenarios. The premise of the scenario was excellent, the details were not (at least for me).
Here’s the background. A few months ago I ran this scenario for the first and last time. My home group had 4 PCs with an APL of 3 (all 3rd level), 2 rogues, 1 sorc, 1 2H fighter. Notice they had no healer (except UMD and the Sorcerer using an Infernal Healing wand).
Disclaimer: Before increasing the difficulty, I asked everyone if it was ok. Before anyone gets hostile about changing scenarios, I agree it’s bad to change scenarios too much when GMing for strangers. However, I would never run this scenario RAW, so I decided to experiment with my home group, and make it more interesting and more difficult. And it worked really well in the end, for a unique experience.
So here are the things I would improve. I’m sorry if I’m picking on Delirium, but these are things I’d like improved “in general” in PFS scenarios. Please try to read the feedback constructively.
Although Delirium had a great back story, the PCs will never learn about it. In general, I want the PCs to know the back story, through whatever plot device you have to use. If word count is an issue, use a single sentence and get the GM to write his own document. For example, I created 'the Journal of Tessara Greensummer', which explained the back story and was found in the maze.
Journal of Tessara Greensummer
These are excerpts from Tessara’s journal.
…………….
I’m not sure what’s happening to happening to my brother. His love for humankind has gone too far, he spends all of his time trying to find a way to stop or slow down time for them.
As if that matters! We elves are immortal and whether humans live for 80 years or 160 years, eventually they all turn to dust and fade away! In any case, he sits in his workshop whispering to himself; drawing strange manuscripts… he’s up to something. Something about his diagrams unnerves me.
…………….
He speaks in whispered tones about someone called… Vyric. I have no idea who it is. I also catch him speaking in tongues I don’t understand. The speech sounds alien, although it’s no language I’ve ever heard and I’ve lived more than 200 years.
…………….
It seems that Abysiel has sold much of his considerable fortune to purchase a minor artifact, Izryen’s Hourglass. He says it slows down time for anyone in close proximity to the hourglass. How is that supposed to help more than a few humans? Also, the hourglass can’t be carried so the humans would have to be in the same room the entire time! I suppose it’s not a bad purchase, it’s just quite a shock to spend more than 100 years of earnings in one day!
…………….
I rarely see Abysiel anymore. He spends his time under our mansion, with his dwarf miners and elven artisans, sculpting and creating who-knows-what. He forbids me to see his project.
…………….
He let me see his work. It’s a small maze. He says the maze amplifies the power of the hourglass and will slow down time for all of his friends. I doubt that, but it might give them a headache. I have no idea how he spends so much time there. It seems I’m not alone; the workers also can’t stand to be here more than a few days at a time.
…………….
It’s been 4 years now and I supposed it had to happen. After all the work that’s been done over the years with no income, he has finally sold his mansion to pay the enormous debts that he must owe. I suppose I’ll get my own apartment somewhere in the Ivy district. Somehow I think Abysiel will stay with his maze.
…………….
It’s been several weeks and I haven’t seen Abysiel. I’m going into the maze to find him, to talk some sense into him if it already isn’t too late. I feel like I’ve lost my brother…
…………….
I’m hopelessly lost and bleeding. I’ve called out to Abysiel, but no one answers. The maze is different now, almost like there’s no beginning or end. It changes on whim. Time and space are warped, it feels eternal, nothing makes sense. Why would he create this… thing? I feel like I’m losing my mind.
…………….
End of journal
I hope some GM somewhere gets some use of the journal.
Anyway, it would be nice if back story elements were included in the scenario, but if they can’t be included (for word count reasons); GMs should know to place something and where to place it.
For a place that warps time and space, everything was very banal and mundane. Not enough “weird” or experimental things happened imo.
- I changed 2 of the traps to “Confusion spell Traps”, and it was much more interesting to have the PCs lose their sanity for a few moments, and see how the rest of the party deals with it. I’d rather have less traps but more interesting ones.
- Instead of having a giant leech in the Void Whisperer encounter (and encounter in a shared dream, how cool is that? Reminds me of Nightmare on Elm Street), I instead had them encounter “shades / figments” of opponents in their past, with a few rounds between each encounter. These figments would act and converse with the party briefly before materializing. They were basically weak versions of the real thing: Skeldon Miregrold (Darkest Vengeance, they failed and he died), Rimetusk (Frostfur Captives), Hafshi Al’Moloch (Citadel of Flame). For PFS, this could have been a single fragment (with standard stats) and the GM just asks all players at the start of the game, “which opponent was the hardest or do you dislike the most playing PFS”. This is a good opportunity to “kill the PCs” if that’s the outcome, because there are no permanent effects.
- The puzzle door opens to anyone with 5 or less wisdom, because they’re also insane.
- I’d do more if I removed more encounters.
To sum up, I’d rather have LESS encounters but have the encounters be more unique and interesting.
When I say challenge, I don’t mean only combat challenge. It’s not our job to kill PCs, but I want them to work for their victories (all of them).
- I removed the option to use Perception to get through the maze, because the idea of following someone’s scent (unless you have the Scent feat or a tracking animal) is absurd. Also, skills like Perception are overused, and if someone actually does have K-Dungeoneering or K-Arcana, it makes having these skills obsolete since it's probable that the Perception check will be easier. I changed the skill check to use Survival and I decreased the DC by 4, so that unskilled groups still have a chance. This made the maze much more challenging. (My group had maybe 10 failed checks, not all of them by 5, before resolving the maze).
- If they fail their check to navigate the maze by 5, they encounter a confusion trap (max 2), however the leader will always suffer 1 Wis damage. This makes it more interesting because it builds tension and takes minimal time, so I don't have to "push the group through" to the end. This increases the tension, as players run out of Wisdom. This also increases roleplaying, as PCs go “insane”.
- I allowed the PCs the option to suffer 1d2 wis damage to get a +5 bonus on their roll, by allowing insanity to take hold, to understand the maze. Sort of Cthulhu-like, this is also an interesting option. The option can be presented without mentioning the bonus or the side effects, which is also interesting.
I took an APL 3 group “to the edge” when they were playing up to subtier 4-5 (and very non-optimized for this combat), but I think that’s the way it should be.
- I had Abyssiel awake and fully buffed. In my story, Abyssiel was still under the control of Vyric, but essentially powerless in Abyssiel’s broken body.
- I changed the feat ‘Point Blank Shot’ to ‘Improved Init’ (to give him a chance to act with a heavy ranged party).
- His 1st level spells are: Enlarge Person*, Mage Armor (for a respectable AC at subtier 4-5), Obscuring Mists (for heavy ranged), Infernal Healing (which works nice in the mists), and Hydraulic Push (which knocks people off the bridge. :) )
- His 2nd level spells are: See Invisibility*, Protection from Arrows (vs ranged), Defensive Shock
- His 3rd level spells are: Force Punch (for knocking people off the bridge).
- He was buffed with Mage Armor (AC 26 which is now respectable), See Invisibility, Defensive Shock, and Protection from Arrows.
- Since he was unable to move (he has no Dex bonus), so he was vulnerable to sneak attack (which was never explicitly mentioned in the scenario, but should have been).
- See the gems (or power sources) in the spiral corners? Those could be disabled using Disable Device (DC 15/20) (maybe even someone with k-Arcana could shut them off?), which would disable his control of Site Mastery for a few minutes (no attacks with pendulums etc). In those corners, it also happens to be outside Abyssiel’s line of sight, meaning he can’t attack the PCs there. I think it’s important to have different ways to solve boss combats, other than just “run in and kill”, especially for smart players. This solution was very similar to “Voice in the Void”, for those players that think about it.
- At subtier 4-5, I also had Nuar under the control of Vyric, but slightly weakened (‘young’ template with a minotaur). The PCs had to defeat Nuar without killing him (or… if they don’t think about it, they kill him). In any case, Abyssiel needs fodder in front of him and this made the encounter more interesting. Maybe the minotaur was too much, but not if the PCs are actually level 4-5.
Summary: Even with all these massive buffs, it was still possible to beat the encounter, even with four level 3 PCs. But more importantly, instead of just challenging, it was *different*, unique, cinematic, memorable, and interesting. If I played it RAW, Abyssiel would be dead in 1-2 rounds tops (with 2 rogues), and I can’t imagine that would have been fun for anyone.
Anyway, this is a summary of what I’d like to see in scenario.
1) Players should need to think. Or rather, intelligent players should be awarded for clever thinking (and these solutions should be built into the scenario instead of making me a cheating GM by adding them in). When solving puzzles, successful skill checks should sometimes give the players clues or hints on how to solve something, not necessarily auto-solve it for them. Imo. For example, I think the simple puzzles in Silent Tide were received better.
2) Creative solutions (and non-combat skills) should make some combat encounters easier.
3) Players should know the back story
4) The big encounter should not be too easy (although season 3 seems to be difficult, hopefully not too difficult.).
5) It would be better to have less filler encounters but more memorable encounters.
6) More (good) roleplaying moments are always welcome.
Thanks for listening.
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I removed the option to use Perception to get through the maze, because the idea of following someone’s scent (unless you have the Scent feat or a tracking animal) is absurd.
But then you missed the opportunity to make jokes about Nuar Spiritskin's cologne -- Drakkar Nuar, of course!
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I'm running this tomorrow and was wondering how the Grapple works with the chains? I says "as if using the animate rope spell". Does just require a ranged touch attack to grapple the opponent? Also, does it maintain the grapple without expending a standard action?
I am going to be running this in two weeks, so this is something I'll need to think about as well. A range touch attack sounds right, but it doesn't give an automatic grapple. It sounds a successful touch would grant a free trip attack (see blow about being used as a trip line) or cause the target to become entangled if they fail a reflex saving throw. I'll quote the relevent part of the spell description below.
The rope can enwrap only a creature or an object within 1 foot of it - it does not snake outward - so it must be thrown near the intended target. Doing so requires a successful ranged touch attack roll (range increment 10 feet). A typical 1-inch-diameter hemp rope has 2 hit points, AC 10, and requires a DC 23 Strength check to burst it. The rope does not deal damage, but it can be used as a trip line or to cause a single opponent that fails a Reflex saving throw to become entangled. A creature capable of spellcasting that is bound by this spell must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level to cast a spell. An entangled creature can slip free with a DC 20 Escape Artist check.
What does everyone else think?
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I have one question about this scenario:
Thx for the help!!
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The Chronicle actually says nothing about Nuar being killed. Either the players rescue him, or Grand Master Torch has to hire another organization to rescue him. Nuar begins the encounter unconscious but stable. The scenario does say that Abysiel plans on killing Nuar if the minotaur doesn't agree to stay with him, but whether that actually happens is not covered. It's probably in there in case the PCs ask Abysiel what his interest in The Minotaur Prince is. Nuar is unconscious until the PCs arrive.
So to summarize, if the PCs defeat Abysiel and save Nuar they get the favor. If they don't reach the last encounter or can't defeat Abysiel, they get the disfavor. There are some remote possibilities that my summary doesn't cover, but it should apply in 99% of the games you run.
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I need some help understanding how Hypnotism works in the final encounter (tier 1-2).
How have you all run it? The author seems to have a straightforward idea in mind (pcs disarmed briefly) but I'm not sure that exactly how the spell should function.
Relevent part of the spell-
A creature that fails its saving throw does not remember that you enspelled it."
So, at which attitude should we consider the pc's starting at? Hostile? Indifferent? Moreover, does the BBEG need to make diplomacy checks to get them to comply with the request? Does that depend on whether the PC's personally think throwing down their weapons is a unreasonable request?
If so, this spell becomes useless as most of those checks are quite high. And the BBEG doesn't have diplomacy. Unless they're attitude is being moved to helpful- then its possible.
Also, if they do throw down their weapons the spell seems to imply that they will not attempt to retrieve them during the fight as- "the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request."
But isn't that a bit too strong for a tier 1-2? Permanent disarm for possibly the entire party (2-8 HD of creatures).
