Hello,
I have tried to convert the old D&D 3.0 eladrin ghaele monster class from Savage Species to an azata ghaele for pathfinder.
For those who don't know Savage Species, the feats and ability score increases in the table replace those of table 3-1 in the core rulebook.
Feedback would be appreciated. :-)
I think the only thing you missed was the SR 25, maybe graduate it in 10/15/20/25. Otherwise, it looks very good.
I think the only thing you missed was the SR 25, maybe graduate it in 10/15/20/25. Otherwise, it looks very good.
Thanks. I was unsure about the SR 25, because Holy Aura gives SR 25 against evil and I thought this was it. If they have a separate SR, I guess it should be added at level 3. Either as class level +5 or Hit Dice +12.
Nope you're right, that is how I would do it too--forgot about the Holy Aura. I'm going to try and talk the DM into letting me run one of these in an upcoming campaign. Thanks for the write up.
Nope you're right, that is how I would do it too--forgot about the Holy Aura. I'm going to try and talk the DM into letting me run one of these in an upcoming campaign. Thanks for the write up.
Could you tell me how it works, if your DM allows it? :-) I was kinda shocked when I realised that the new ghaele gets another +8 on ability scores on top of the old adjustments, but it seems that in Pathfinder all races and classes have become stronger.
Common is not an automatic language?
No, it never was. Ghaele either have to sacrifice a bonus language for that or wait until they get truespeech (and hope that they have a speaker of a planar language in the party who can translate for them ;)).
There's no Level adjust in Pathfinder, so why would you make the character over 20 levels, when its only a 13 HD creature.
There's no Level adjust in Pathfinder, so why would you make the character over 20 levels, when its only a 13 HD creature.
Because even though there's no level adjustment in Pathfinder the ghaele has become even more powerful than it was in D&D 3.X (okay, it seems in Pathfinder everybody is more powerful than in 3.X, still..). And the combination of two good saves, good BAB, 6+Int skill points, +14 Strength, +10 Con, +8 Wis and +6 to Int and Charisma (and the +2 to Dex), cleric spellcasting, a gaze attack that can literally let you walk into an enemy army of evil creatures and slay them by the dozen just by looking and a bunch of useful spell-like abilities can be really crazy. If you roll a 18 during character creation and put it into Strength you will end up with Strength 32. Sure, part of that will be needed to offset the lack of 7 levels that would've given you a higher BAB, but the damage increase makes up for that.
There's no Level adjust in Pathfinder, so why would you make the character over 20 levels, when its only a 13 HD creature.Because even though there's no level adjustment in Pathfinder the ghaele has become even more powerful than it was in D&D 3.X (okay, it seems in Pathfinder everybody is more powerful than in 3.X, still..). And the combination of two good saves, good BAB, 6+Int skill points, +14 Strength, +10 Con, +8 Wis and +6 to Int and Charisma (and the +2 to Dex), cleric spellcasting, a gaze attack that can literally let you walk into an enemy army of evil creatures and slay them by the dozen just by looking and a bunch of useful spell-like abilities can be really crazy. If you roll a 18 during character creation and put it into Strength you will end up with Strength 32. Sure, part of that will be needed to offset the lack of 7 levels that would've given you a higher BAB, but the damage increase makes up for that.
but in 3.5 All outsiders had 3 good saves and 8+ Int skill points, I'd just make the player use the slow xp progression and do it over 13 levels.
but in 3.5 All outsiders had 3 good saves and 8+ Int skill points, I'd just make the player use the slow xp progression and do it over 13 levels.
But they didn't have the d10 HD. If you want to make the player take the slow progression and get all the special abilities in 13 levels that's your call, but the effect would be around a Level Adjustment of +1. You would get a crazily overpowered character who as soon as he's done with his ghaele class could go into fighter to get a lot of bonus feats and take full advantage of his high ability scores.
Compare a ghaele with adventurer-typical basic ability scores to a normal level 20 character. And then make the same comparison with a ghaele who has 6 additional class levels as a fighter and the feats and ability score adjustments that come with that.
but in 3.5 All outsiders had 3 good saves and 8+ Int skill points, I'd just make the player use the slow xp progression and do it over 13 levels.But they didn't have the d10 HD. If you want to make the player take the slow progression and get all the special abilities in 13 levels that's your call, but the effect would be around a Level Adjustment of +1. You would get a crazily overpowered character who as soon as he's done with his ghaele class could go into fighter to get a lot of bonus feats and take full advantage of his high ability scores.
Compare a ghaele with adventurer-typical basic ability scores to a normal level 20 character. And then make the same comparison with a ghaele who has 6 additional class levels as a fighter and the feats and ability score adjustments that come with that.
yea, but would they take fighter levels or continue the cleric spell progression?
I know when i create NPCs I take advantage of the spell progression over taking fighter levels.
I'm just trying to find an happy medium that doesn't use level adjust, and until Pathfinder comes up with a way, to do that I would prefer not to use 3.5 methods.
There's no Level adjust in Pathfinder, so why would you make the character over 20 levels, when its only a 13 HD creature.
in 3.5 Savage Spieces, the Ghale was a 20 level creature. I ran one along side the party in a 3.5 campaign as the party's healbot, and bespite having low health relative to the rest of the party, survivability was never an issue.
Resistances + Damage Reduction + ability to fly + cure light wounds at will = very hard to kill.
There's no Level adjust in Pathfinder, so why would you make the character over 20 levels, when its only a 13 HD creature.in 3.5 Savage Spieces, the Ghale was a 20 level creature. I ran one along side the party in a 3.5 campaign as the party's healbot, and bespite having low health relative to the rest of the party, survivability was never an issue.
Resistances + Damage Reduction + ability to fly + cure light wounds at will = very hard to kill.
Actually Savage Speices was a 3.0 book that was never, converted to 3.5, there was a few errata, but no conversion.
and yes your right I played one in a 3.5 game, but what I'm try to say is that we are talking about pathfinder now, not 3.5.
The people in paizo have made it clear they are not using level adjust. Now for your own game if you want to incorporate level adjust that is fine, I'm just looking for a way to do it with out level adjust.
There's no Level adjust in Pathfinder, so why would you make the character over 20 levels, when its only a 13 HD creature.in 3.5 Savage Spieces, the Ghale was a 20 level creature. I ran one along side the party in a 3.5 campaign as the party's healbot, and bespite having low health relative to the rest of the party, survivability was never an issue.
Resistances + Damage Reduction + ability to fly + cure light wounds at will = very hard to kill.
Actually Savage Speices was a 3.0 book that was never, converted to 3.5, there was a few errata, but no conversion.
and yes your right I played one in a 3.5 game, but what I'm try to say is that we are talking about pathfinder now, not 3.5.
The people in paizo have made it clear they are not using level adjust. Now for your own game if you want to incorporate level adjust that is fine, I'm just looking for a way to do it with out level adjust.
The only way I can think of to get rid of the level adjust and still be balanced is to make them a non-standard outsider. Make then a 20 hd creature, but use d6 for their HD(and +1 BAB per 2 HD).
13d10 is +13 BAB and 76 HP. 20d6 is +10 BAB and 72.5 hp. They end up losing 3 BAB, and 3.5 hp on average.
yea, but would they take fighter levels or continue the cleric spell progression?I know when i create NPCs I take advantage of the spell progression over taking fighter levels.
Well, if you start taking levels in cleric you get the spell progression but the rest is just a 6th level cleric in terms of energy channeling and other class features. If I wanted to powergame, I would stop with the spell progression and use mainly buffs, protection spells and heals. Instead I would go fighter for full BAB and the many bonus feats. Assuming you had a starting ability score of 18 in strength, get +14 from the ghaele class, and a belt of giant strength +6 and a two-handed sword made of adamantine you can sunder, disarm etc. perfectly.
I'm just trying to find an happy medium that doesn't use level adjust, and until Pathfinder comes up with a way, to do that I would prefer not to use 3.5 methods.
Are you really sure that they got rid of level adjustment? When browsing the monsters I find a lot where the CR doesn't match the Hit Dice. Under Monsters as PC's they say:
"For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes."
Now what is the difference between CR and Hit Dice if not a level adjustment?
yea, but would they take fighter levels or continue the cleric spell progression?I know when i create NPCs I take advantage of the spell progression over taking fighter levels.
Well, if you start taking levels in cleric you get the spell progression but the rest is just a 6th level cleric in terms of energy channeling and other class features. If I wanted to powergame, I would stop with the spell progression and use mainly buffs, protection spells and heals. Instead I would go fighter for full BAB and the many bonus feats. Assuming you had a starting ability score of 18 in strength, get +14 from the ghaele class, and a belt of giant strength +6 and a two-handed sword made of adamantine you can sunder, disarm etc. perfectly.
I'm just trying to find an happy medium that doesn't use level adjust, and until Pathfinder comes up with a way, to do that I would prefer not to use 3.5 methods.Are you really sure that they got rid of level adjustment? When browsing the monsters I find a lot where the CR doesn't match the Hit Dice. Under Monsters as PC's they say:
"For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes."
Now what is the difference between CR and Hit Dice if not a level adjustment?
but most of the monsters have had their HD increase to equal their CRs when you compare them to the 3.5 monster manual.
there are a few that have their CR either lower or higher then their HD.
it's a big ambiguous gray area :)
The only way I can think of to get rid of the level adjust and still be balanced is to make them a non-standard outsider. Make then a 20 hd creature, but use d6 for their HD(and +1 BAB per 2 HD).13d10 is +13 BAB and 76 HP. 20d6 is +10 BAB and 72.5 hp. They end up losing 3 BAB, and 3.5 hp on average.
I slept a night about that idea, and now see a few problems: You mess up the caster level progression, and I think you get even more Hitpoints than before. Assuming he has a base Con of 10 he ends up with 20. His normal HP are
13*5,5 + 13*5 = 136,5.
Now with your idea he gets
20*3,5 + 20*5 = 170
but most of the monsters have had their HD increase to equal their CRs when you compare them to the 3.5 monster manual.
there are a few that have their CR either lower or higher then their HD.
it's a big ambiguous gray area :)
True. And when in big ambiguous gray areas, go with whatever works. ;-) I'm curious to see how they will handle it in their Savage Species-version, but at the moment I only want to have a playable ghaele again without breaking the game, and for that a conversion of the existing monster class is the best way.^^