I'm not great at making characters so I'm coming to you all to see if you can help me. I want to make a Fighter who fights unarmed. my friends tell me I would just be gimping myself and that i should shut up and make a monk... Are they right. if you think they aren't can you give me some clues as to what feats i would need? Thank you
oscar
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Improved Unarmed Strike, obviously. What else is allowed?
If you're starting off at 1st, go high Str. The 1d3 damage won't be so bad if you're adding +4 or 5 to it. You won't take people down in a single hit like a greataxe user rolling high, but you will deal much more consistant damage.
An unarmed fighter can be done, and will have different pros and cons over a monk, but you will have to invest some feats in it. Which luckily you have.
If you can use PHB2, grab Versatile Unarmed Strike to deal with DR/slashing or piercing.
Depends if they allow 3.5 splat. Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords had a feat called Superior Unarmed Strike that gave you an unarmed damage progression weaker than the monk's. It would be nice for an unarmed Fighter or Barbarian. Otherwise, I'm not sure what to offer.
Superior Unarmed Strike makes it more playable. I think a fighter could use a gauntlet, too, to deal lethal damage and for enchantments, since he doesn't have to flurry with it.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack increases your damage
Wpn Focus and Wpn Specialization line for unarmed strike
Stunning Fist
Scorpion Style - Gorgon's Fist - Medusa's Wrath
Two-Weapon Fighting and related feats work with unarmed strikes
Vital Strike line will be a bad choice
And if you're going unarmed, might as well start picking up combat maneuver feats to make the most of it. Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm are the real winners. Grappling in particular can be very effective if you build for it. In fact, if I were building an unarmed fighter, Improved Grapple would be a higher priority for me even than Wpn Focus/Wpn Specialization.
And if you're going unarmed, might as well start picking up combat maneuver feats to make the most of it. Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm are the real winners. Grappling in particular can be very effective if you build for it. In fact, if I were building an unarmed fighter, Improved Grapple would be a higher priority for me even than Wpn Focus/Wpn Specialization.
Indeed. Drag your opponents 'down to your level' where you will own them. This doesn't work so good vs. monsters without weapons, or just plain really big monsters. And damage reduction will be a pain for you to overcome.
I'd suggest carrying a 2H weapon. You don't need to invest feats into it (except perhaps Power Attack, but that feat works for unarmed fighting just fine too), and you can use that when all your funky-fu isn't going to work very well (eg. Gelatinous Cubes).
Personally, I think Improved Unarmed Strike is something every fighter should shoehorn into his arsenal reasonably early. The situations where it's useful may be limited (disarmed, imprisoned, surprised), but in these cases it will probably save your bacon.
IUS is actually only useful for stuff that needs it as a Pre-Req, i.e. Imp Grapple.
Using spiked gauntlets will do better damage and bypass the AoO's anyways.
Enchanting both gauntlets and amulet of mighty fist will allow you to stack enhancements most efficiently once you get to mid-levels.
You will eventually hit (melee and maneuvers) better than a Monk with your Weapon Training and Imp/Grt WFocus, the only down side is that you have to meet DEX requirements for 2WF (I wouldn't really ever take Greater 2WF, personally). As mentioned, Grappling and Maneuvers generally are going to be your forte with Weapon Training applying to most of them.
Honestly, you REALLY want to start out with 1 level of Monk: +2 all Saves, 1d6 base damage (>1d8 Imp Nat Attack> 2d6 Enlarged), Imp Unarmed, Stunning Fist (not available until 8th level normally), one other Feat (probably Imp Grapple), good Class Skills, and (if you don't use gauntlets) flurry of blows giving you effectively +1 to hit on full attacks and 2WF for free. Actually, never mind, you CAN use spiked gauntlets most of the time, you just can't use them during flurries (this goes for full Monks as well).
Somebody mentioned Versatile Unarmed Strike from PHB2, there is a similar Feat from Paizo if you are playing within Golarion, you only have to have been trained by evil Nidalese monasteries (Hamatula Strike or something).
But honestly, the only reason I can see NOT to at least multiclass Fighter/Monk 50/50 is if your character concept must be non-lawful. If so, it's still viable to start out as a Monk at first level and be Chaotic - that's why you were kicked out, right? - and go Fighter/Barbarian from there.
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack increases your damage
Wpn Focus and Wpn Specialization line for unarmed strike
Stunning Fist
Scorpion Style - Gorgon's Fist - Medusa's Wrath
Two-Weapon Fighting and related feats work with unarmed strikesVital Strike line will be a bad choice
And if you're going unarmed, might as well start picking up combat maneuver feats to make the most of it. Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm are the real winners. Grappling in particular can be very effective if you build for it. In fact, if I were building an unarmed fighter, Improved Grapple would be a higher priority for me even than Wpn Focus/Wpn Specialization.
Would Improved Natural Attack apply to a fighter fighting unarmed, if it does why don't Monks usually take it?
Personally, I think Improved Unarmed Strike is something every fighter should shoehorn into his arsenal reasonably early. The situations where it's useful may be limited (disarmed, imprisoned, surprised), but in these cases it will probably save your bacon.
+1, altho I would add the greatest use of all...barfights. With TWF and IUS you can get three attacks (with AoO) and still do nonlethal damage. Let the games begin.
Interestingly, this is something that a friend and I were talking about a couple weeks ago. This what what we came up with after that conversation using only PF material and he's a pure fighter.
I'd be interested in hearing how bad it is... ;)
Also, please notice he's almost gearless. Just something for thought when looking at his combat stats.
Male human Fighter 20
CG Medium humanoid
Init +4 ; Senses Perception +20
==DEFENSE==
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +4 dex)
hp 246 (20d10+40)
Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +7
==OFFENSE==
Spd 20 ft./x4
Melee Unarmed Strike +30/+25/+20/+15 1d3+12 19-20/x3
Melee Unarmed Strike +28/+23/+18/+13 1d3+12 19-20/x3 (2 weapon Fighting Mainhand)
Melee Unarmed Strike +28/+23/+18/+13 1d3+10 19-20/x3 (2 weapon Fighting Offhand)
Melee Dagger, melee +24/+19/+14/+9 1d4+7 17-20/x2
Melee Dagger, melee +24/+19/+14/+9 1d4+5 17-20/x2
Ranged Dagger, thrown +26/+21/+16/+11 1d4+7 17-20/x2
==STATISTICS==
Str 18, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +20, Cmb +24Cmd +38
Feats Armor Proficiency (Heavy) (PFCR 118), Armor Proficiency (Light) (PFCR 118), Armor Proficiency (Medium) (PFCR 118), Critical Focus (PFCR 120), Defensive Combat Training (PFCR 121), Gorgon's Fist (PFCR 124), Greater Grapple (PFCR 125), Greater Two-weapon Fighting (PFCR 126), Greater Vital Strike (PFCR 126), Greater Weapon Focus (PFCR 126), Greater Weapon Specialization (PFCR 126), Improved Critical (PFCR 127), Improved Grapple (PFCR 127), Improved Two-weapon Fighting (PFCR 128), Improved Unarmed Strike (PFCR 128), Improved Vital Strike (PFCR 138),
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +8, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Perception +20, Sense Motive +5, Stealth +20, Survival +14, Swim +8
Languages Common
Combat Gear Unarmed Strike, Dagger, Breastplate
Other Gear Armor & Shield, Weapons
Class Abilities • FIGHTER BONUS FEATS - At 1st level, and at every even level, a fighter gains a bonus feat from the Combat Feats list. (PFCR 55).
• FIGHTER WEAPONS AND ARMOR - A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). (PFCR 55).
• BRAVERY - As a fighter of level 20 you get +5 bonus to Will saves vs. fear. (PFCR 55).
• ARMOR TRAINING - Armor check penalty is reduced by 4 (to a minimum of 0) and maximum dexterity bonus is increased by +4. No movement penalty for medium or heavy armor. (PFCR 55).
• WEAPON TRAINING (Monk, Light Blades, Thrown, Bows) - You have the following attack and damage bonuses on chosen weapon groups: Monk +4, Light Blades +3, Thrown +2, Bows +1, . (PFCR 56).
• ARMOR MASTERY - Gain DR 5/— whenever wearing armor or using a shield. (PFCR 56).
• WEAPON MASTERY - At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (a ×2 becomes a ×3 for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type. (PFCR 56).
Traits • Anatomist (Combat) - +1 to confirm critical hits (PFCT 3)
• Indomitable Faith (Faith) - +1 on Will saves. (PFCT 5)
The problem with an unarmed fighter, and the flaw wth the preceeding character, is that you don't get multiple attacks for high base attack bonus with natural attacks (PFCR p.182). So at high levels any unarmed fighter will be inferior to a weapon based fighter or monk, unless a feat has been introduced to change that.
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Would Improved Natural Attack apply to a fighter fighting unarmed, if it does why don't Monks usually take it?My monks do. There is some debate about if they can in PF, but in 3.5 it was ruled monks could. There was no such ruling for fighters, but IMO what is good for one is good for the other.
We'll be issuing an errata for that feat that adds this sentence to the feat:
"Improved Natural Attack can not be applied to unarmed strikes."
Unarmed strikes ARE still treated as natural weapons for most effects (particularly for the spell magic fang and for amulets of magic fang), but the Improved Natural Attack feat is an exception to that rule.
So! There ya go! Official errata! Sorry it took so long to nail it down.
The problem with an unarmed fighter, and the flaw wth the preceeding character, is that you don't get multiple attacks for high base attack bonus with natural attacks (PFCR p.182). So at high levels any unarmed fighter will be inferior to a weapon based fighter or monk, unless a feat has been introduced to change that.
Unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks, therefore BAB does apply to number of attacks.
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
That's only for the purpose of attacks of opportunity.
Unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks, therefore BAB does apply to number of attacks.
Maybe that's open to debate as well. Why else would people be suggesting Improved Natural Attack?
Because they're ignoring the fact that INA (officially) doesn't apply to unarmed strikes.
Core p.58 wrote: nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his
flurry of blows attacks.
Core p.149 wrote: Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Chapter 8).
Core p.182 wrote: You can make attacks with natural weapons in
combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes...
To me this is pretty clear that natural attacks and unarmed strikes are seperate.
That's only for the purpose of attacks of opportunity.“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Why do you say that? It's an equal level header as "Attacks of Opportunity", not a sub-section.
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To me this is pretty clear that natural attacks and unarmed strikes are seperate.
The INA discussion was about pg 58 saying that a monks unarmed strike is treated as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve the same. Hence monks could take Improved Natural Attack. I see no reason not to let a Fighter with Imp Unarmed Strike do the same.
Core p.149 wrote: Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Chapter 8).
I stand corrected.
Why do you say that? It's an equal level header as "Attacks of Opportunity", not a sub-section.That's only for the purpose of attacks of opportunity.“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
The part where it says, "and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed".
Those still fall under how I thought the rule worked.
To me this is pretty clear that natural attacks and unarmed strikes are seperate.The INA discussion was about pg 58 saying that a monks unarmed strike is treated as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve the same. Hence monks could take Improved Natural Attack. I see no reason not to let a Fighter with Imp Unarmed Strike do the same.
I don't want to rez the thread, but is a feat an 'effect'? I'm sure it would have said feats if it meant feat. If you've houseruled that the errata's not applicable then that's your call, but if you're arguing that the rules for natural attack feats apply to unarmed strikes, i've got to disagree.
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We can argue the definition of 'effect' in relation to the rules all we want, but we won't get anywhere.
I am not arguing that INA applies to unarmed strikes, only that it does to monks unarmed strikes. I feel the errata is unnecessary and contradicts printed material. (A paizo AP had a monk with INA.)
And in light of all this, I have no problems with a Fighter taking INA for his IUS. He's already worse off to begin with, not getting the improved damage die like the monk does.
Out of curiosity would you rule that he gets extra attacks from a high BAB?
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You could always just fight with gauntlets. That's effectively "unarmed" in an in character sense if not a mechanical sense, and you can still enchant them and deal a bit more damage.
Couple levels of monk might not be the worst idea though. Bonus feats are nice and the saves aren't anything to sneeze at.
In 3.5 D&D at least a lot of the hard core super damage fighterish types I saw really didn't care about the dice they were rolling, it was all in the power attack/smite/strength bonus/rawr damage. The trouble comes in when you lack the ability to two-hand a weapon.
As for making yourself too weak, well that all depends on your DM and your game. With a good strength score you can totally just plaster kobolds and goblins, but uppercutting dragons might be hard. I'd suggest looking into some good grappling feats.