I'm a veteran of 3.x, but new to Pathfinder. Our gaming group is just about to start a new PF campaign, and I'd like to play a monk, specifically a wuxia-style monk, ala Crouching Tiger (impossible leaps, grace over strength, etc.) or even the Matrix movies (yes, I know this was covered more by 3.x's psychic warrior feats). I see this character as generally peaceful and with the goal of personal enlightenment (probably LN).
Our DM has asked us to start at 3rd level and use the 24d6 "dice pool" method for generating ability scores. I've divided my dice up as such:
Str: 4
Dex: 5
Con: 3
Int: 3
Wis: 6
Cha: 3
I want a character that's combat-viable, but I really do want to concentrate on that acrobatic grace that so defines Crouching Tiger. I'm planning on a human character, and I'd prefer to stay as core as possible.
So, am I dividing up my ability dice in a reasonable manner? Which feats should I move toward (both for my first three levels and for farther down the road)? Any other suggestions?
Thanks!
I'm a veteran of 3.x, but new to Pathfinder. Our gaming group is just about to start a new PF campaign, and I'd like to play a monk, specifically a wuxia-style monk, ala Crouching Tiger (impossible leaps, grace over strength, etc.) or even the Matrix movies (yes, I know this was covered more by 3.x's psychic warrior feats). I see this character as generally peaceful and with the goal of personal enlightenment (probably LN).
Our DM has asked us to start at 3rd level and use the 24d6 "dice pool" method for generating ability scores. I've divided my dice up as such:
Str: 4
Dex: 5
Con: 3
Int: 3
Wis: 6
Cha: 3I want a character that's combat-viable, but I really do want to concentrate on that acrobatic grace that so defines Crouching Tiger. I'm planning on a human character, and I'd prefer to stay as core as possible.
So, am I dividing up my ability dice in a reasonable manner? Which feats should I move toward (both for my first three levels and for farther down the road)? Any other suggestions?
Thanks!
Read through Treantmonk's excellent Monk guide.
I recommend following the advice in the guide to rank Strength higher than Wisdom and Dex, so I would probably go with Str 5, Dex 5, Wis 5, which would still follow the advice in the guide, and stay true to the concept.
Read through Treantmonk's excellent Monk guide.
I recommend following the advice in the guide to rank Strength higher than Wisdom and Dex, so I would probably go with Str 5, Dex 5, Wis 5, which would still follow the advice in the guide, and stay true to the concept.
And, of course, the company filter blocks that site. Thanks, though...
The roleplayer in me says that you got the dice pool just right.
But that little devil on the other shoulder needs to point out that dexterity does very little for a monk. Don't get me wrong, AC is great, and you may flurry with shuriken now and then... But that is about it. If you want to be combat viable, strength is pretty important. It is really the only thing that will make your attacks effective. I would personally put 4 dice to dex, and 5 to str. Since you want to be wuxia style, I would max out accrobatics skill and choose feats that give you a running jumping style.
H Improved Initiative
1 Deflect Arrows
M1 Dodge
M2 Scorpion Style
3 Mobility
To quote from the guide since you can't read it:
Monks are all kinds of MAD (multiple ability dependant), AC is dependant on Dex and Wis, Stunning fist on Wis, HP on Con, Damage on Str, Combat Maneuvers on Str, Skills on Int...really, only CHA is a true "dump stat"
However, in the back of our brains, remember the question? ("How does this choice help the damage and/or combat maneuver problem?") So, based on that question, we can determine our primary ability score - at that ability score is Str.
Therefore, when you set your ability scores, they should be Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha
To quote from the guide since you can't read it:
Monks are all kinds of MAD (multiple ability dependant), AC is dependant on Dex and Wis, Stunning fist on Wis, HP on Con, Damage on Str, Combat Maneuvers on Str, Skills on Int...really, only CHA is a true "dump stat"
However, in the back of our brains, remember the question? ("How does this choice help the damage and/or combat maneuver problem?") So, based on that question, we can determine our primary ability score - at that ability score is Str.
Therefore, when you set your ability scores, they should be Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha
Thanks you. I was able to find the article on a non-Websensed site, and it did give some good advice. I'll have to tweak it some, since I don't want a number-crunching killing machine so much as a combat-capable monk that emphasizes ease of movement.
Thanks you. I was able to find the article on a non-Websensed site, and it did give some good advice. I'll have to tweak it some, since I don't want a number-crunching killing machine so much as a combat-capable monk that emphasizes ease of movement.
I would say to go for your original choice - I prefer speed to strength, really, and while strength may be optimal for dishing out damage, at higher level you are going to be using more from dice than from bonuses still.
That said, I would recommend Vital Strike feat tree as it will offset your inability to use your flurry of blows with your movement.
Crap, I didn't even think about the fact that FoB is a full-attack action. Well, crud.
I suppose, though, that my vision of this character (ala Crouching Tiger) isn't so much a fast character or one that darts in and out of combat so much as one that practically floats and embodies grace of movement.
Still, there are practical limitations to how high/far a character can jump in PF, even with the Jump spell or an insane Acrobatics check. The rules under the Acrobatics skill specifically state that no jump can allow you to move farther than your movement speed.
Granted, at high level monks have a pretty high speed (and can use ki to boost it even higher), but I don't see many PF effects that duplicate the 3.x wording "this effect allows you to jump higher/farther than your speed would normally allow."
The issue you're going to hit is that monks aren't really designed to be the Crouching Tiger type. The way they're mechanically set up, they really just do to things - trip/grapple people when they move, FoB when they don't. You're trying to make a character that's actively trying to not be made.
If 3.5 material is allowed, I'd say go with swordsage - it's a much closer fit to a wuxia style hero.
The issue you're going to hit is that monks aren't really designed to be the Crouching Tiger type.
That and the wuxia genre is rather impossible to imitate without magic in a system not designed for it.
The much more significant missing ingredient, in my opinion, is the lack of willow step (ie. being able to stand on light branches/run on water/run on top of arrow fire). In the first edition Players Handbook, monks had body equalibrium which would allow them to do all of this. I think they should be allowed to move just as a phantom steed can move.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Some feats can "help" emulate it (Acrobatic Steps and Nimble Moves, for example), but you still don't get what you deftly termed "willow step."
Any ideas on how to do this? Perhaps I could give up some other monk ability to be able to do this. Perhaps we could houserule that spending 1 (or 2) ki allows me to reduce my body weight (is there a spell that does this?). What would be fair?
Given that monks can already dimn door, smash boulders with their bare hands (ie. hit as hard as adamantium), fall any distance without being harmed, etc., I really doubt that what's impacting monks is lack of magic.The issue you're going to hit is that monks aren't really designed to be the Crouching Tiger type.That and the wuxia genre is rather impossible to imitate without magic in a system not designed for it.
Of course that is STANDARD in D&D. In Wuxia, people float (not jump, float) to the top of a tree, then dance around and fight. Or fly at each other (actual flying) and fight or float from building to building while fighting.
Why not just emulate Willow Step with a combination of Slow Fall (monk ability) with judicious use of Boots of Spider Climb?
I would say to go for your original choice - I prefer speed to strength, really, and while strength may be optimal for dishing out damage, at higher level you are going to be using more from dice than from bonuses still.That said, I would recommend Vital Strike feat tree as it will offset your inability to use your flurry of blows with your movement.
I'm going to have to disagree with this advise. Strength is way wore important than dex. My lvl 5 monk has a damage bonus of +11 for single attacks and +9 for FoB. Even at lvl 20 2d10 averages to only 10 points of damage, I'm already doing more than that at a fraction of the lvl.
Str also helps determine CMB and CMD, which you will need if you wish to perform any manuovers.
Wisdom is actually more important than dex also, it adds to AC and CMD, as well as your stunning fist DC.
I'm not saying completely disregard dex, but 12 or maybe 14 should be good enough. You still want a reflex save bonus.
Again, the issue is that the monk from all of third edition isn't built for wuxia. It's made off of bad 70's kung fu movies where all they do is punch people and yell a lot. Consequently, that's all the monk was made to do.
Add level to accrobatics checks. That should do the trick. In 3.5 it wasn't that hard to get your ballance score up high enough to walk on water (DC40 IIRC). No reason you can't use it to ballance on trees as well. As for flying, I have never seen them actually fly in wuxia, just jump and float. They always have to come down and push off again. With the way jump checks work, you can hit obsurd jump distances to easily simulate wuxia. This would also be covered with bonus to accrobatics.
Add level to accrobatics checks. That should do the trick. In 3.5 it wasn't that hard to get your ballance score up high enough to walk on water (DC40 IIRC). No reason you can't use it to ballance on trees as well. As for flying, I have never seen them actually fly in wuxia, just jump and float. They always have to come down and push off again. With the way jump checks work, you can hit obsurd jump distances to easily simulate wuxia. This would also be covered with bonus to accrobatics.
You're still limited by your speed. Yes, I know a monk's speed gets quite high eventually, but at lower levels having an absurd Acrobatics skill doesn't really do much more than guarantee the success for shorter jumps and the like.
Plus, having a high Acrobatics skill doesn't reduce your effective weight; even in 3.x with a DC40 check you couldn't stand still on a liquid surface--you had to keep moving. I want the ability to stand still on impossibly thin branches and the like (as per the Crouching Tiger battle in the bamboo forest).
Of all the suggestions so far, I like the phantom steed one, though it seems much more powerful than the Slow Fall ability that it was suggested to trade off to get it.
If you want a wuxia monk, use monk/psycic warrior. Seriously - the psychic warrior powers are themed that way, it works like a dream.
Of course it seems much more powerful than the Slow Fall. That's because it is much more powerful than the Slow Fall. But, given that the monk is one of the weaker classes in the game and really needs an effective way to handle flying creatures, I don't consider this a problem.
Of all the suggestions so far, I like the phantom steed one, though it seems much more powerful than the Slow Fall ability that it was suggested to trade off to get it.
I prefer the replacement class ability that lets you run up walls up to your "Slow Fall" distance.
I prefer the replacement class ability that lets you run up walls up to your "Slow Fall" distance.
Of all the ideas so far, I like this one the most. It seems more balanced than the Phantom Steed idea (though I still really like that one).
If I was playing 3.x, I'd go the monk/psychic warrior route, but this is PF game with a group that's never played PF before, so we're trying to stay as core as possible (which, of course, is why I'm doing my darndest to swap out abilities and houserule my character--natch).
The 3.0 Oriental Adventures book has a 'blade dancer' prestige class for monks that is designed EXACTLY to do this.
Eberron has a 'temple sword' that is a monk weapon, so it can be used in a flurry. I don't know if you can finesse it, but a wis-dex monk would use fewer stats. Also do a bit less damage, but no character is good at EVERYTHING.
For those psychic duels, I'd go with Sense Motive and Improved Initative. Also quick-draw, possibly.
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You could also do quite well with monk/cleric. Instead of the highest level monk abilities (and you don't need adamantine hands to be be a wuxia-style warriot), take the appropriate cleric spells.
When you get to 7th level cleric, you can have air walk, after all.
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Actually, you just need one trade in monk abilities. Trade dimension door (a 4th level spell) for air walk, and you're 90% there.
Campaign settings for galorian has the temple sword too... basically an exotic long sword that is a monk weapon.