Had a game last night in which our four 6th-level adventurers fought a trio of cyclops. We had stumbled upon them in some ruins and decided to attack them in order to rescue some hostages they were apparently holding.
The fight started well due to our getting a round and a half worth of actions before the enemy could even react. As the fight went on, however, our characters started to lose ground due to their incessant use of Cleave and Great Cleave. Eventually we wizened up and spread out, resorting to reach weapons and ranged attacks.
We got back our advantage and pressed on.
After a number of rounds, the three cyclops realized they were in dire straights. Suddenly, they had a flash of insight of how they might be saved. They each charged a character, each landing and confirming a natural 20 crit attack roll with their greataxes.
Three of our four characters went down and the fourth was easily overwhelmed by the three brutes despite their weakened state.
We knew this was going to be a hard fight, but the flash of insight ability pretty much guaranteed we never really stood a chance. We are now hostages ourselves and must find a way to free ourselves before we become the morrow's dinner.
Has anyone else been on the wrong side of this monster ability? Did it strike you as a little unbalanced as well?
Seems to be played as written and not too powerful, though all 3 doing it at the same time/vs staggered over a few rounds might have been a bit DM -botish.
Well, wouldn't the flash of insight have revealed to the 'clops that a synchronized charge would give them the best odds for survival? I say that partly tongue-in-cheek, I'd be pissed if that happened to my party too. At least the DM didn't TPK the party...
Zo
Umm, the fact that the ability allows fudging the roll shouldn't probably mean that it allows you score a critical hit IMO. Crits should be strictly a result of a die ROLL. This is more like taking 20 on a skill roll.
The ability allows you to choose you a die roll. It is nothing like taking 20. I don't consider the ability broken however since the crit still has to be confirmed with an actual roll, and fighting giant types on their terms(melee) is not a good idea.
As to whether or not the DM was wrong*, depends on the playstyle the group is used too.
*By wrong I mean in bad taste to play more brutally than he/she normally would.
PRD:
Flash of Insight (Su) Once per day as an immediate action, a cyclops can peer into an occluded visual spectrum of possible futures, gaining insight that allows it to select the exact result of one die roll before the roll is made. This effect can alter an action taken by the cyclops only, and cannot be applied to the rolls of others.
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PRD:
Flash of Insight (Su) Once per day as an immediate action, a cyclops can peer into an occluded visual spectrum of possible futures, gaining insight that allows it to select the exact result of one die roll before the roll is made. This effect can alter an action taken by the cyclops only, and cannot be applied to the rolls of others.
I personally would still rule that it requires an actual roll in the threat range to threated a critical. Although I would probably give the roll to confirm some sort of circumstance bonus, maybe a +5. But that's just me, other opinions may vary.
The ability allows you to choose you a die roll. It is nothing like taking 20. I don't consider the ability broken however since the crit still has to be confirmed with an actual roll, and fighting giant types on their terms(melee) is not a good idea.
s of others.
Agreed. God forbid the Cyclops crits of its own accord, then uses Flash of Insight to maximize the damage roll. 75 damage from a CR 5 monster is pretty rough, but them's the breaks.
Zo
The ability allows you to choose you a die roll. It is nothing like taking 20. I don't consider the ability broken however since the crit still has to be confirmed with an actual roll, and fighting giant types on their terms(melee) is not a good idea.
s of others.Agreed. God forbid the Cyclops crits of its own accord, then uses Flash of Insight to maximize the damage roll. 75 damage from a CR 5 monster is pretty rough, but them's the breaks.
Zo
Would they really get to pick all the dice in the damage roll, or just one die out of the bunch?
Also, the three cyclops still had to confirm their crits (which they did thanks to their charge bonuses).
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I may be way off here, but it sounds like your party fell more to poor tactics than the crits at the end.
There's no reason you should have been getting cleaved even if you were in melee. For cleave to work you need two targets adjacent to each other. Even if you had four party members swarming one cyclops you could still have positioned yourselves so that no two were adjacent. [edit] considering they were flat footed for 1.5 rounds you pretty much had free reign of the battle board without fear of AoOs. [/edit]
Finally, if you're going to disengage from a melee opponent they are going to charge you if you let them. You can use things like terrain or other opponents/higher hp pcs as blockers. Spreading out in open terrain is an invitation.
They have 65 hit points (80 if you consider their ferocity ability) 19 Ac and crap reflex and will saves. At least one should have been focus fired down in the first round considering you got the surprise round AND won initiative.
Hm. I have to admit that having a very good shot at doing 9d6+48 damage is pretty powerful for a CR 5 creature.
I hadn't yet read the cyclops description. What a cool ability!
My players are going to hate you all after my next game :)
heheheheh
Hm. I have to admit that having a very good shot at doing 9d6+48 damage is pretty powerful for a CR 5 creature.
Where are you getting +48? Even assuming they are power attacking their bonus damage should be +13 (7 from strength and 6 from power attack) x3 is 39? Still nothing to sneeze at.
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They are also summable by 9th level druids with Summon Nature's Ally. Which is quite nice, especially if the druid has Augment Summoning.
Cyclops barbarians are even worse. They are CR6, but I doubt that many sixth level characters would survive 9d6+66 of damage (or 12d6+66 if the cyclops barbarian has vital strike as a feat).
Hm. I have to admit that having a very good shot at doing 9d6+48 damage is pretty powerful for a CR 5 creature.Where are you getting +48? Even assuming they are power attacking their bonus damage should be +13 (7 from strength and 6 from power attack) x3 is 39? Still nothing to sneeze at.
Oops..I misread the BAB of a cyclops. You're right.
As the fight went on, however, our characters started to lose ground due to their incessant use of Cleave and Great Cleave. Eventually we wizened up and spread out, resorting to reach weapons and ranged attacks.
How were the Cyclopsesis getting Cleave and Great Cleave set-ups anyway? If they weren't dropping the party, who/how were they cleaving/great cleaving incessantly??
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As the fight went on, however, our characters started to lose ground due to their incessant use of Cleave and Great Cleave. Eventually we wizened up and spread out, resorting to reach weapons and ranged attacks.How were the Cyclopsesis getting Cleave and Great Cleave set-ups anyway? If they weren't dropping the party, who/how were they cleaving/great cleaving incessantly??
Cleave and Great Cleave no longer require dropping your enemy, hitting them is sufficient now (although it now works only against adjacent enemies).
Cleave and Great Cleave no longer require dropping your enemy, hitting them is sufficient now (although it now works only against adjacent enemies).
Oh.... OUCH!!!
=)
Creative Director
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It's important to note that the cyclops's flash of insight affects only one die roll. It's basically intended to work on d20 rolls, but it can certainly work on ANY die roll... but not multiple dice. So if it does a 9d6 type attack, it would get to modify one of those d6s. Allowing it to modify all nine is a bit much.
It DOES work quite well to allow them to threaten critical hits, though... but not to confirm them (they'd still need to roll those, or vice-versa).
It's a nasty one, but like others have said, I'd be inclined to say that it might be more an issue of tactics here. Remember the traditional method of dealing with cyclops is blinding them in their sleep and making clever use of sheep.
It's a nasty one, but like others have said, I'd be inclined to say that it might be more an issue of tactics here. Remember the traditional method of dealing with cyclops is blinding them in their sleep and making clever use of sheep.
Not sure which of the PCs can make that Knowledge(Greek Poetry) check. :D
It's a nasty one, but like others have said, I'd be inclined to say that it might be more an issue of tactics here. Remember the traditional method of dealing with cyclops is blinding them in their sleep and making clever use of sheep.
Sheep. They're not just for Tomb of Horrors.
It's important to note that the cyclops's flash of insight affects only one die roll. It's basically intended to work on d20 rolls, but it can certainly work on ANY die roll... but not multiple dice. So if it does a 9d6 type attack, it would get to modify one of those d6s. Allowing it to modify all nine is a bit much.
It DOES work quite well to allow them to threaten critical hits, though... but not to confirm them (they'd still need to roll those, or vice-versa).
Thanks for the clarification!
Now I just don't want to see my GM use lvl 11 cyclops against us... Barbarians and Rangers auto-critting is not nice.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It's important to note that the cyclops's flash of insight affects only one die roll. It's basically intended to work on d20 rolls, but it can certainly work on ANY die roll... but not multiple dice. So if it does a 9d6 type attack, it would get to modify one of those d6s. Allowing it to modify all nine is a bit much.
James,
It's probably worthwhile mentioning this somewhere. The 3.5 convention is for a reroll to either (or be explicitly limited to a d20 or a particular type of d20 roll (saves, attacks, etc.) or to apply to an entire roll. Rerolling 9d6 (with, say, the luck mechanic from Complete Rogue) means reroll all nine dice. Reroll percentiles means reroll both the 10's and 1's digit.
It's fine for Pathfinder to interpret "reroll" differently, but I can't imagine anyone used to 3.5 rolling damage and thinking she could reroll only the worst die.
It's important to note that the cyclops's flash of insight affects only one die roll. It's basically intended to work on d20 rolls, but it can certainly work on ANY die roll... but not multiple dice. So if it does a 9d6 type attack, it would get to modify one of those d6s. Allowing it to modify all nine is a bit much.
James,
It's probably worthwhile mentioning this somewhere. The 3.5 convention is for a reroll to either (or be explicitly limited to a d20 or a particular type of d20 roll (saves, attacks, etc.) or to apply to an entire roll. Rerolling 9d6 (with, say, the luck mechanic from Complete Rogue) means reroll all nine dice. Reroll percentiles means reroll both the 10's and 1's digit.
It's fine for Pathfinder to interpret "reroll" differently, but I can't imagine anyone used to 3.5 rolling damage and thinking she could reroll only the worst die.
It's not a reroll. Before the roll is made you choose the outcome of a single die roll.
Unless you really want to kill their characters, what's the point?Now I just don't want to see my GM use lvl 11 cyclops against us... Barbarians and Rangers auto-critting is not nice.Cyclops Barbarians with scythes...
Many GMs optimize NPCs as much as a PC and expect the PCs to overcome the challenge. They design things within the rules and abuse the players with them, and the players like it. I know a number of GMs who would suprise the players with this, and the players in their games would look at them, piss and moan, and then gloat when they killed it. My group has a particularly interesting way of avoiding deaths, even when we should have them.
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Creative Director
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It's probably worthwhile mentioning this somewhere. The 3.5 convention is for a reroll to either (or be explicitly limited to a d20 or a particular type of d20 roll (saves, attacks, etc.) or to apply to an entire roll. Rerolling 9d6 (with, say, the luck mechanic from Complete Rogue) means reroll all nine dice. Reroll percentiles means reroll both the 10's and 1's digit.
It's fine for Pathfinder to interpret "reroll" differently, but I can't imagine anyone used to 3.5 rolling damage and thinking she could reroll only the worst die.
Yeah; as mentioned above, this isn't a reroll power. You pick one die's result before the rolling even happens.
It's important to note that the cyclops's flash of insight affects only one die roll. It's basically intended to work on d20 rolls, but it can certainly work on ANY die roll... but not multiple dice. So if it does a 9d6 type attack, it would get to modify one of those d6s. Allowing it to modify all nine is a bit much.
James,
It's probably worthwhile mentioning this somewhere. The 3.5 convention is for a reroll to either (or be explicitly limited to a d20 or a particular type of d20 roll (saves, attacks, etc.) or to apply to an entire roll. Rerolling 9d6 (with, say, the luck mechanic from Complete Rogue) means reroll all nine dice. Reroll percentiles means reroll both the 10's and 1's digit.
It's fine for Pathfinder to interpret "reroll" differently, but I can't imagine anyone used to 3.5 rolling damage and thinking she could reroll only the worst die.
There is no reroll. There is not even a roll at all. You pick one die and choose the number. Now for the percentage die I would allow the percentage to be chosen since the only reason it has two dice is because you need two die for the one number. Now if a DM tried to hold me to the "one die" for the D100 roll I would just purchase a hundred sided dice.
edit: Ninja'd twice
There is not reroll.
...
edit: Ninja'd twice
There is not a reroll. There is not even a roll at all. You pick one die and choose the number.
Haha! I ninja'd you from the future! Take that!
There is not reroll.
...
edit: Ninja'd twice
There is not a reroll. There is not even a roll at all. You pick one die and choose the number.
Haha! I ninja'd you from the future! Take that!
Now I have to erase the future so that never takes place.
Yeah; as mentioned above, this isn't a reroll power. You pick one die's result before the rolling even happens.
I totally get that, and agree with your clarification, however the rule still isn't as clear (to some) as it might be. Relying on your astute player base to discern the qualitative difference between singular and plural can get players' panties in a bunch.
Consider that when rolling for damage one tends to not roll a die at a time, and the same goes for percentiles. Percentile dice are regarded as a single die roll, even though they're two separate dice. The way you've described the rule, the cyclops could only predetermine the tens or the ones die. But what happens if the DM has one of those ridiculous d100 monstrosities? (Does anyone actually use those?) I understand this is uber-nitpicky, and IMO the issue is settled, but maybe this warrants a FAQ entry.
Zo
Many GMs optimize NPCs as much as a PC and expect the PCs to overcome the challenge. They design things within the rules and abuse the players with them, and the players like it. I know a number of GMs who would suprise the players with this, and the players in their games would look at them, piss and moan, and then gloat when they killed it. My group has a particularly interesting way of avoiding deaths, even when we should have them.Unless you really want to kill their characters, what's the point?Now I just don't want to see my GM use lvl 11 cyclops against us... Barbarians and Rangers auto-critting is not nice.Cyclops Barbarians with scythes...
Yeah, but if you really want a TPK, there are plenty of other ways to do this within the letter of the rules.
Level 1 diviner with improved init -> CR 1/2
16 level 1 diviners -> Base CR + 8 -> CR 7
Level 10 Wand of fireball with 1 charge -> 450 gold -> 225 gold crafting cost
16 Level 10 Wands of fireball with 1 charge -> 7200 gold -> 3600 gold to craft
Even when you factor in the increased loot the wizards are carrying, the encounter is only CR8-9 by the book. If the encounter happens in a 20ft x 50 ft room, the PCs won't have enough room to spread out.
Just make sure you have an escape plan to get out of the room alive after you kill an entire group of level 8-9 players with 160d6 worth of fireballs in a single round.
My PCs min-max, so if I don't min-max my NPCs they are going to be too easy. You shouldn't pull things out with the sole purpose of killing the PCs.
Is there any time a character rolls a d100 in pathfinder/d20? Ok, maybe a rod of wonder or deck of many things. I do agree that it should work for percentile dice, but it seems like it wouldn't ever come up.
Is there any time a character rolls a d100 in pathfinder/d20? Ok, maybe a rod of wonder or deck of many things. I do agree that it should work for percentile dice, but it seems like it wouldn't ever come up.
The miss chance for concealment.
Is there any time a character rolls a d100 in pathfinder/d20? Ok, maybe a rod of wonder or deck of many things. I do agree that it should work for percentile dice, but it seems like it wouldn't ever come up.
Well, that and the fact that two d10 represent a d100, which would actually be one die.
Diviners rule.
Diviners rule.
I knew you were going to say that.
Is there any time a character rolls a d100 in pathfinder/d20?The miss chance for concealment.
Ah. Since those are all increments of 5% I've always used a single d20 to resolve concealment.
Is there any time a character rolls a d100 in pathfinder/d20? Ok, maybe a rod of wonder or deck of many things. I do agree that it should work for percentile dice, but it seems like it wouldn't ever come up.Well, that and the fact that two d10 represent a d100, which would actually be one die.
That was my point. James Jacobs referred to one physical die, while the term "die roll" can also refer to an amalgamation of dice and modifiers. The distinction between the physical d10 used to generate the 10s or 1s in a d% and the actual roll itself can be construed by some as nebulous. I'm thinking of a series of recent threads while writing this.
As an aside, why didn't the Flash of Insight authors just state the rule only applied to d20s? I mean, if it's one physical die it's unlikely a DM would have the monster waste it on changing one of the great axe d6s for damage, right? Almost everything else the monster would do is d20 based, and the rule becomes so much clearer if it's stated thus.
Note that I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Zo
But playing counter devil's advocate, a percentile roll is referred to as a d100. 3d6 are, well 3 (die) six. A d3 roll is a roll of an imaginary die with three sides, but there are some (granted, obscure) cases where you would roll 2d3, and that doesn't mean 1d6.
I'm just saying that I don't think the designation of one die really is that strange, and before I read this thread, I would have never assumed that, from the language, anything but one die would be affected.
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Creative Director
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As an aside, why didn't the Flash of Insight authors just state the rule only applied to d20s? I mean, if it's one physical die it's unlikely a DM would have the monster waste it on changing one of the great axe d6s for damage, right? Almost everything else the monster would do is d20 based, and the rule becomes so much clearer if it's stated thus.
Because we deliberately wanted to try out something new. A Flash of Insight DOES work with a d100 roll, so a cyclops could use his power to ignore a miss chance. Or pick the exact result when using a rod of wonder. And it also lets them manipulate weapon damage somewhat, but also spell damage. This ability lets them basically maximize an enervation ray, for example. It's almost ALWAYS going to be used for a d20 roll, I suspect, since most rolls in the game use d20s.
I'm just saying that I don't think the designation of one die really is that strange, and before I read this thread, I would have never assumed that, from the language, anything but one die would be affected.
Me either, but one shouldn't underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance. I learned my lesson (most recently) in the thread about delaying feat choice.
Almost everything else the monster would do is d20 based, and the rule becomes so much clearer if it's stated thus.
It's almost ALWAYS going to be used for a d20 roll, I suspect, since most rolls in the game use d20s.
I suspect we're in agreement here. Reiteration of my point that some folks might want this to be clarified in FAQ form eventually. Couldn't hurt, right?
This is almost completely off topic, but what (from a philosophical/logical standpoint) is the actual difference between a die roll consisting of 2 10-siders rolled to get a percentile and 3 6-siders rolled to get a number between 3 and 18? My best answer would refer to the d100 as being one of the basic "denominations" of random number generation (in the rpg oeuvre), but this seems somewhat weak on its face. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
Zo