Maximum Initiative & delaying


Rules Questions


Hello,

I did non find something on it.

Following pg 203, if you dealy an action and take it in your next turn, you loose the action of that turn but your iniative rises to the point where you take the delayed action.

Is it possible that way to get an iniative that is higher then the Iniative your character would be able to get with an initiative check?

For example a character with a Ini Bonus of 1 does his check for the combat and rolls a 10 = Ini 11.
If he now delays his action into the next round - would he be able to act with an initiative of 25?

I personally think that there is a limit to your iniative - the max. you can get with a check - the character in the example is not able, even with delay, to get an iniative of 25. His maximum is 21. Even with delay.

One of my cogamers says, that there is no rule for that in the Core Rulebook.

I can live with getting ONE action at a higher then possible iniative when you delay - but I find it hard to imagine that this higher iniative would stay permanently for the fight.

Help please :)


Say you've got four players and one monster in a combat. Everyone rolls initiative. Player A gets a 20, Player B gets a 17, the monster gets a 16, Player C gets the 11 you mentioned above and Player D gets a 7.

Player A, Player B and the monster take their actions and it comes to Player C's action. Player C decides to delay his action until after Player A acts. His turn is now done and it's Player D's turn.

In the next round, Player A takes his second set of actions. Now, because Player C delayed until this point, he gets to act. This seems to put his initiative count somewhere between 20 and 17, but that doesn't matter. The number is just there to determine order and, after that, is useless. It's the order that's important, not the initiative value of that position.

In round 1, the order looks like this:
1 - Player A
2 - Player B
3 - Monster
4 - Player C
5 - Player D

In round 2 (and after) the order looks like this:
1 - Player A
2 - Player C
3 - Player B
4 - Monster
5 - Player D

Does that makes sense?

Liberty's Edge

you are taking it that the iniative is treated how fast you move you need to look at iniative as how fast you react starting. It is treated as we all move the same speed my action takes the same as the person with ini 25. I just waited until that person was about to act and jumped in. It is not in any shape broken or game damaging to allow someone who delays in round 1 to act first in round 2. It is just as if they are going last. They are acting 1 time when everyone else has alreay acted or begining act 2.

remember it is fine becuase you cannot delay in suprise round.


It makes sense and I can follow you.

My problem is just that I think it weird that you, with an Ini Bonus of 1 and a maximum check result of 21, can get to act sooner then someone with a Bonus of 5 and max 25.

I don't see the problem with One Action that you get sooner.

Do I take it right, that you need a "trigger" to use your delayed action in the next round? So you can never act sooner then the first character in that round?

But still its weird that this is your iniative for the rest of the fight?
It just looks like that many people would delay to get second (cause first is not possible because you need the trigger?) in action in the next round / for the rest of the fight.

So the howl point of iniative is getting high results without delaying / getting first because you cannot get first with delay?


Initiative determines who goes first in combat, but that only matters the first round.

If you have 3 people with initiative rolls of 25, 20, 15 turns will go

person 1
person 2
person 3

person 1
person 2
person 3

person 1
person 2
person 3

yes at some point person 3 can hold his turn so he goes after person 2, but this doesn't speed him up, it slows him down. He essentially skips one of his turns.

person 1
person 2
person 3

person 1
person 2

person 1
person 3
person 2

so during the same 3 rounds person 1 and 2 have taken 3 turns, but person 3 has only taken 2. Yes he takes his actions before person 2 now, but it doesn't actually give him anything, a round is measured from a persons turn to the same person's turn. And this can't be used to extend the duration of effects that last x rounds.


Thank you all. I get it and its more then I thought possible but not so.. dramatic.


Arthun wrote:

Do I take it right, that you need a "trigger" to use your delayed action in the next round? So you can never act sooner then the first character in that round?

You need a trigger for a readied action, but not if you are delaying. Delaying allows you to go after or before another character, but you cannot interrupt their actions. (To do that, you need to ready.)

For example, assume the initiative rolls are:

A: 25
B: 17 (init mod +0)
C: 8
D: -1

If B delays, C takes his turn, after which B has the option of acting. If he continues to delay, D takes his turn, after which B has the option of acting. If B acts at this point, his initiative is either less than -1 (if he acts in this round) or greater than 25 (if he acts in the next round). However, it does not matter* as in either case, B will go after D and before A.

The actual values of initiative do not matter once an order has been formed. Delaying to get your initiative to a high value also has no benefit, and actually has a cost. In the above example, if no one delays, actions will happen in this order:

ABCDABCDABCDABCD

With the delaying that I described, actions will happen in this order.

ACDBACDBACDBACDB

In the original initiative order, A takes his first action before B takes his first action. A also takes his second (third, etc.) actions before B takes his second (third, etc.) action. This is also true with the delayed order: even though B goes first in the second and following rounds, the lost action from the first round means that he Nth action always comes after A's Nth action.

However, without delaying, B would be taking his Nth action before C and D take their Nth action. With delaying, B is taking his Nth action after C and D. By delaying, B gains the ability to claim a super-high initiative but actually ends up going after people who rolled a lower initiative.

* It could matter in the unusual case that another character/monster arrives in the middle of the battle.

Liberty's Edge

You really aren't changing yourself to be faster, you are changing the build of the round. here is an example.

=== Round 1 ====
24 - Player 1
19 - monster 1
11 - Player 2
8 - monster 2
4 - Player 3

=== end of round ===

Player 2 wants to react to player 1's actions but act before the monsters, so he holds his action until just after player 1 , thus changing the round dynamic. The new round number can be considered a relative number, showing an action directly after player 1.

== Round 2 ===
24 - Player 1
23 - Player 2
19 - monster 1
8 - monster 2
4 - Player 3
== end of round ===


Arthun wrote:


So the howl point of iniative is getting high results without delaying / getting first because you cannot get first with delay?

Going first isn't always best. In my group, the melee types have learned to delay their actions to just before the bad guys go, to give them the maximum amount of ranged/caster support possible before charging in to hack them up. Delaying until after the wizard casts Haste or drops a fireball in the group of baddies is much better for the fighter than charging in and missing out on the haste or having to soak of friendly fire.

Initiative is as much about good tactics as the rest of combat is. Sure, running in first to hit stuff might feel fun, but it's not always the best move.


udalrich wrote:

* It could matter in the unusual case that another character/monster arrives in the middle of the battle.

The monster or character should be added wherever they show up in combat. If summoned they are added at the same initiative as the summoner. If there are random wanderers or distant reinforcements for either side that can show up, the DM should have already rolled their initiative to determine when they are running towards the battle. If party members are asleep, they should get their first action the turn after they wake up after they wake up right before the person or effect that woke them up(effectively a surprise round against that one person).

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