Over on Enworld there's a thread about what to do if you're the CEO of Paizo...one of those "Where do you go from here" kind of threads. Many of you have probably seen it.
In that thread (and others) I see a recurring theme from some posters that frankly terrifies me!
Some say that they would like to see Paizo eventually move away from the 3E/OGL/D20 rules and come up with their own rule set that they can call their own.
NO!
Now, I know that inevitably we'll be faced with a Revised Pathfinder, or perhaps a 2E Pathfinder (hopefully FAR in the future), but please, I beg of you Paizo...don't abandon the 3E/d20 rules set!
I can live with small tweaks and changes...but not with radical departures and entirely new systems. I like the rules we have, I really think its the best iteration of D&D yet, and I've been playing since OD&D. I really like having a game system that I play supported and not left by the wayside!
Sure, if things change, I can keep using and playing with the books we have (and will be getting in the next couple of years), but this is it for me. I'm not jumping onto a new rollercoaster anymore. If Paizo does ever move onto a new system...won't it just fragment the community even further?
Please, please, please Paizo, don't try to re-invent the wheel! Please?
ENWorld is not a place I frequent often - usually via hyperlink from hereabouts. Just keep in mind that it seems a majority of Paizo's current RPG customer base seem to like the d20/OGL game set. And that a few posters on various boards do not the majority make. :)
I dont see why they would institute such a radical departure any time soon. A huge portion of their customer base, myself included is here because they are offering support for a 3.x system. Maybe years down the line, but i dont expect it to happen any time soon.
I think the good Paizo folks are unlikely to do a radical departure any time soon. No one cuts the throat of their customer base unless they have a huge war-chest and/or rely on the rabidness of their fanbase to stick with them on faith alone. Look at the legions of 3.x players who flatout refuse to play 4E. WOTC/Hasbro is the big kid on the block with deep pockets, they can afford to lose a chunk of their customers if their marketing projections predict they will expand the rest of their customer base, over time, to compensate. Paizo is not in that position at this time. I think it's more likely that Paizo would make a set of iterative changes to tweak their system and weed out the remaining 3.x headaches. But possible wholesale disenfranchisement of their 3.x converts is not a smart move and I'm pretty sure Paizo knows it.
One of the big reasons that Paizo made Pathfinder was to be able to continue selling its 3.5 supplements. I do not think that they are going to become seriously 3.5 incompatible any time soon.
Unless something is posted by Paizo from an official source, any comments should be taken with a liberal dosage of salt via a third party web site.
Any company can make a claim to original content and put out material protected by copyright law. Paizo benefits from copyright law right now.
The OGL license however allows companies to share WOTC IP according to unrevokable rules(the rules not the sharing) - that is its strength. Paizo's right to publish an OGL system is based on the OGL.
They might conceivably negotiate a separate license with WOTC but that might be very very expensive. All of their OGL publications would also remain OGL. I think the OGL serves Paizo very well (IMHO). Its extra popular with people who rejected 4th ed. as well.
I am not talking for anyone but me (just a gamer) but I don't think Pathfinder will ever leave the OGL. Licensing issues would make a whole new game simpler to produce. Further, anyone, anywhere offering free advice to Paizo for their business model is most likely wasting words on the world wide web.
Don't credit anything not from Paizo. Feel free to ignore this.
On the other hand, if you're just waiting for a real answer, I'll understand. I'll even wait with you.
Sigurd
James has already gone on record saying he doesn't expect a major (as in 2.0) rule set for PFRPG for a long time. I recall him commenting in the 10 to 20 years range.
James has already gone on record saying he doesn't expect a major (as in 2.0) rule set for PFRPG for a long time. I recall him commenting in the 10 to 20 years range.Regardless of what he's saying now, I really doubt it'll be 20 years before a new version is released.
But I could easily see it being 10 years before a new version is released.
Especially since Pathfinder is well on its way to being the market leader. They don't want to destroy the goose that laid the golden egg.
20 years sound like an awfully long time for a game system - around ten can happen, but 20 will most probably not. Paizo does listen to its customers and fans in their product development, and I can´t imagine folks clamoring for leaving the OGL rules any time soon, especially given the turmoil we´ve all witnessed with the 4e release. I don´t think these claims are anything more than speculation.
Pathfinder well on its way to being the market leader sounds like wishful thinking to me, however - Pathfinder may do well, but is a long shot from D&D itself. Market leader in 3e compatible products, perhaps.Stefan
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think Paizo has a lower incentive to produce a new edition of the rules as compared to other rpg companies. Most companies need to redo core rules because those books are the biggest sellers. It also makes it easier for new people to hop on the bandwagon. But, Paizo's primary business seems to be their APs and other subscriptions. They have a steady flow of cash coming in from those product lines and (theoretically) shouldn't need a new core rules launch as badly as other rpg companies.
I think what is more likely is to see some 2.0 versions of prior products, particularly those that become referenced a lot (and are difficult to obtain) or outdated. I would expect to see a revised elves of Golarion before a revised set of core rules.
I have little faith in 4e. I have even less faith in Hasbro if 4e goes the way I expect it to.
WotC may be the market leader now, but who do you think is right behind it?
White Wolf. Don't get me wrong, I loves me some Paizo, but I'm pretty confident that WWP is right behind WOTC.
I think Paizo has a lower incentive to produce a new edition of the rules as compared to other rpg companies. Most companies need to redo core rules because those books are the biggest sellers. It also makes it easier for new people to hop on the bandwagon. But, Paizo's primary business seems to be their APs and other subscriptions. They have a steady flow of cash coming in from those product lines and (theoretically) shouldn't need a new core rules launch as badly as other rpg companies.
I think what is more likely is to see some 2.0 versions of prior products, particularly those that become referenced a lot (and are difficult to obtain) or outdated. I would expect to see a revised elves of Golarion before a revised set of core rules.
I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to Paizo's biggest strength is producing APs, supplemental materials, and related subscriptions. This is further supported in regards to updating 3.5 rules to provide an avenue for customers that did not like the path 4E has taken.
ENworld is primary a 4E fansite. Most of the posters there have a negative view of Pathfinder and Paizo.
i'm not sure i agree with either of these statements... like posters of many other sites, they analyze, customize, and trash any edition of any game you happen to mention. :-)
All my friends and I hated 4e from the get-go, but one look at Pathfinder and we were sold. I think that's the way most of Paizo's customers feel, and so I think this is the ruleset they will stay with, thankfully. A grand toast to Paizo for listening to gamers, and not a business model that says the more changes you make the more people have to buy a product!
Seriously, folks, the Core Rulebook has been out for seven months.
A massive revision of the rules is not even on the horizon.
See, that's exactly the what you'd like us to think. Be honest now. The Advanced Player's Guide is really the New Pathfinder 3.85 Revised Core Rules Book I: Characters, Classes and Carps isn't it?
Seriously, folks, the Core Rulebook has been out for seven months.
A massive revision of the rules is not even on the horizon.
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"
Come on guys, seriously? ;) This isn't really a concern is it? Paizo stuck with 3.5/d20 rules and didn't convert to 4e for a reason...
Seriously, folks, the Core Rulebook has been out for seven months.
A massive revision of the rules is not even on the horizon.
LOL. Clearly Vic you aren't aware that the runner-up title for 'Internet' was 'Idle Speculation Net'. I think most of us were trying to meet the OP's request to 'alleviate [his/her] fear' - and saying "not gonna happen" probably wasn't enough reassurance. :)
See, that's exactly the what you'd like us to think. Be honest now. The Advanced Player's Guide is really the New Pathfinder 3.85 Revised Core Rules Book I: Characters, Classes and Carps isn't it?Seriously, folks, the Core Rulebook has been out for seven months.
A massive revision of the rules is not even on the horizon.
Sweet! I got dibs on playing the first Hengeyokai Koi Carp Samurai!
I'm so bad@$$ I'm going to turn myself into sushi.
Being that 3.5 was (from my understanding) a blatant money-spinner, the notion of releasing a new rules version to generate profits is not lost on the D&D community. The hope, however, is that Paizo does not follow the somewhat faceless corporate example of Hasbro (since that's who actually controls what happens to official D&D). I am one of those hopeful. I witnessed the change in Games Workshop's attitude over the past 20 years or so and don't like what I saw.
Zo
Creative Director
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I think it's clear that Pathfinder will -eventually- change it's rule base. I can think of no game which has existed long enough which hasn't.
Call of Cthulhu. You can still play Call of Cthulhu today with the 1st edition rules, which were published about 30 years ago. They're currently on the 6th edition of their game, and the fundamental rules mechanics haven't changed.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Being that 3.5 was (from my understanding) a blatant money-spinner, the notion of releasing a new rules version to generate profits is not lost on the D&D community. The hope, however, is that Paizo does not follow the somewhat faceless corporate example of Hasbro (since that's who actually controls what happens to official D&D). I am one of those hopeful. I witnessed the change in Games Workshop's attitude over the past 20 years or so and don't like what I saw.
Zo
Lisa and I saw Wizards of the Coast go from zero paid employees to a thousand. We learned a lot from that experience, but we have no interest in doing it again.
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Creative Director
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And to echo Vic's statement above, 7 months into a new game's lifespan is really really really early to start worrying about us throwing out those rules to make a new version of the rules.
I do appreciate the fact that there seems to be a vocal support for us to produce 4th edition products, but that's simply not going to happen for numerous reasons that have been covered in great detail over and over before.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think it's clear that Pathfinder will -eventually- change it's rule base. I can think of no game which has existed long enough which hasn't.Call of Cthulhu. You can still play Call of Cthulhu today with the 1st edition rules, which were published about 30 years ago. They're currently on the 6th edition of their game, and the fundamental rules mechanics haven't changed.
Palladium might be a better example - I don't think they've ever published a new edition of their rules.
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Creative Director
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Palladium might be a better example - I don't think they've ever published a new edition of their rules.I think it's clear that Pathfinder will -eventually- change it's rule base. I can think of no game which has existed long enough which hasn't.Call of Cthulhu. You can still play Call of Cthulhu today with the 1st edition rules, which were published about 30 years ago. They're currently on the 6th edition of their game, and the fundamental rules mechanics haven't changed.
Although Call of Cthulhu has been around longer than Palladium...
I do appreciate the fact that there seems to be a vocal support for us to produce 4th edition products, but that's simply not going to happen...{snip}
Wha?! What? I must have missed those threads. Not to start a flame war but I'd like to lend my vocal support to Paizo NOT producing 4th edition products. Please keep your focus where it is!
As the great sage Porkins has oft been quoted "Stay on target..."
Regards,
~sr
And to echo Vic's statement above, 7 months into a new game's lifespan is really really really early to start worrying about us throwing out those rules to make a new version of the rules.
Of course it is years (decades?) too early, but wildly speculating is a ton of fun :-)
Seriously, it should be clear to anybody putting only a few minutes of thought into the topic that Pathfinder RPG is obviously meant to stay as it is for a long time - two previous editions and a long, public playtest should have seen to that. I guess Jason would have a nervous breakdown if anybody proposed a reworking of the rules.Stefan
I confidently predict that WotC will drop 4e and release a new edition (5e) long before Paizo release Pathfinder 2.0.
Palladium might be a better example - I don't think they've ever published a new edition of their rules.
Ultimate edition of rifts has quite a bit of revision. More particularly the fantasy game has a second edition that is more rifts like.
I'm fairly certain we don't have to worry about pathfinder 2.0 until at the very least epic, divine levels, psionics, unearthed arcana, and savage species come out, which sounds like 5 years minimum.
The more interesting speculation is what hardcovers will they produce next year (besides bestiary 3).
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IDK guys, the Advanced Players Guide, the Advanced Gamemasters Guide...in the span of a year, maybe at Paizocon 2011 they will make the announcement of Pathfinder d20-1.1
I can see the ads already - the big 1.1 sided die, shutting down the website and leaving ominous product images in their place; 3-D Flipmats (3-D glasses to view, only $9.99). It shall be the Return of Aroden, the raising of Atlantis, dogs and cats sleeping together - mass hysteria.
And such is the birthing of - The Advanced Pathfinder Rules! Aka Advanced Paths & Finders.
This will be a good thing; we must not revile but embrace the change.
Someone quick, get the word out to ENworld!
FLY!
For those who are *really* in the know, the big announcement will come this Thursday.
ah hah! So, you admit it. A massive revision of the rules is just over the horizon! *knowing wink*Seriously, folks, the Core Rulebook has been out for seven months.
A massive revision of the rules is not even on the horizon.
Now it becomes a simple math problem. How far is the horizon based on the curvature of the planet in Golarion? Assume a walking speed of 1.5mph... (ignore the additional mileage from skirting Wolfberry Bushes)... figure out how long it will take us to reach said horizon... and PRESTO! we know when Path 2.0 will be released.
Too easy, DRILL SERGEANT!
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CEO
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Why would we abandon the rules set that is the base for the most popular game system in the world? As someone who has started brand new rules systems, they are a tough row to hoe. GMs get all excited about new rules, but players don't. They don't like to learn new rules. I don't know how many times I heard GMs come up to me at GenCon and say something like, "I LOVE your new rules and want to play a game, but I can't find any players. So we are playing D&D instead." This is called the rule of network externalities. It says, in a nutshell, that those products that have the biggest network of customers will be the most lucrative and those that don't, will end up dying. The best game system in the world is worthless if you can't find a group to play it with. The d20 system is the largest system in the world by far, why would we dump it by the wayside to start a system that has a network of zero to start? Seems like a pretty dumb idea if you ask me.
Now, sometime in the future, might we look at a Pathfinder 2.0 with a new rules derivation from Pathfinder 1.0? Sure. But, as Vic said, we haven't even had Pathfinder for a year yet! Give us a break and let us support our new baby. :)
-Lisa
See, that's all I needed, just a little reassurance. :)
The thought of Pathfinder some day moving to a radically altered rule set made me throw up a little.
And just to add another thought:
This just goes to show that the folks as Paizo have the right mindset and strategy for the RPG market IMHO.
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Also - d20 created a whole industry. Dancey and Adkinson managed to spring a revolution that birthed the whole PDF thing and opened the marked to hundreds of small publishers, allowing them to take a part in Something Bigger. Not much a point in abandoning a system that gives you dozens of eager publishers of support material ! Just look at how much stuff did LPJ, Super Genius and 4WFG put out during one year.
I confidently predict that WotC will drop 4e and release a new edition (5e) long before Paizo release Pathfinder 2.0.
I confidently predict that the sun will come up tomorrow.
Now it's your turn again to predict something that's a complete no-brainer.
Though, actually, they could drop the RPG stuff altogether at that point. Maybe they'll go all trading card or trading minis or something with the name instead, or try a MMORPG with the D&D name to compete with WoW.
So either that or 5e before long.
Let's make it interesting: Will there be a D&D 6e before Pathfinder 2.0? :D
Well lets see..we now see the D&D brand on Heroquest..and the two new board games coming out under the D&D label might give some indication of where the suits at Hasbro see the game going for them.
And yes I'd say that we'll see D&D 6th edition before there is a PF2.0
Used to be that the conventional wisdom of RPG publishing was the "Seven Year Itch".
You'd get new gamers somewhere around age 13-15. The vast majority of them would play for 2-3 years, and then you'd have a steady drop in customer base, as they found other things to fill their time with.
Somewhere around 7 years in (roughly the time they get serious about graduating from college or have a real job and a mortgage), they have no time for hobbies like RPGs.
So, roughly every 3.5 to 4 years, you'd come out with a new edition of the game figuring that the veterans you lost would be replaced by catching the next wave of 13-14 year olds, and by the time the next new edition came out, the first wave of customers you had were now in the "Life and Mortgage" phase of their adventure path.
This worked for TSR. Games Workshop turned it into a gold mine. White Wolf tried to avoid it, and eventually came out with NWoD.
The other avenue to regular sales is licensed products, provided you can do them to a high enough quality standard. And provided you don't confuse "RPG core book" with "Telephone Book Sized Concordance".
However...
The new crop of 13-14 year olds isn't coming to RPGs on their own any more. Most active RPGers are over 30 now. RPGs are scheduled social time, and if there are 13-14 year olds out there, they're playing games with their parents (which is good), but they're not generally forming social networks of their own with kids their own age.
This means that there's less of an incentive to do edition churning solely to handle the demographic waves. It does mean that rules systems are likelier to grow cruft-tastic. Publishers need to release new products. New products need something to wake up your established customer base and make them say "I want it!". This usually means power creep in the core rules, or investment into a setting.
If there's a new Pathfinder edition, it will likely come about because of one of the following reasons:
1) Paiso plus 3rd Party Publishers eventually power creep or cruft up the rules to the point where they need a weed whacker taken to them. Time frame?
2) They send the core book back for a major reprinting, and have enough fixes to merit a new edition.
3) They think that they can significantly catch a new market larger than their then extant one.
3 is unlikely. 2 will happen, but it won't be called a new edition. It will be sold to the existing customer base as a "revised and expanded" edition. 1 will depend entirely on how well they exercise editorial control.
As someone who publishes RPGs that are not d20, I'm well aware of the network externalities of d20/Pathfinder. On one hand, the market for my titles wouldn't be there if this game didn't exist.
On the other hand, because of how heavy d20/PF is, the primary reason people say "No, I'll play D&D..." is because they spent all this time learning enough of how this game works that they've built up a mental shibboleth about how hard other games are to learn as well.