| Ardenup |
Ok, this is my take on the general consensus of all the chatter on various Gish threads. Most people have agreed a suitable platform for a fighter mage class is the Bard's class model: 3/4 BAB + 2/3 spells + synergistic skills and abilities. With an option to be Fighter focused or caster focused.
So, I propose the mageknight.
Similar to sorcerers, some are born with magic as an inate talent. Unlike sorcerers though some born with this power have a warrior's heart and would rather use it in a more direct (they would say less cowardly) manner against their enemies. These are the mageknights, beings who blend sorcerous power with martial prowess into a seemless whole. These knights have found a harmony between two disparate disciplines, with a focus and power unrivalled and they believe there is nothing they can't kill.
Role: Mageknight's make versatility a specialty. They'll tell you they're good at nearly everything, but in truth a mageknight tends to function mostly based upon thier focus. Melee focused mageknights tend to be at the forefront meeting tooth and claw with blade and shield.
Magic focused Mageknights tend to have a narrow but very focused ability to cast some incredibly damaging spells.
Alighnment: any
HD: d8
Class Skills:
The Mageknight's class skills are Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim.
If at first level the Mageknight selects Combat focus he also adds intimidate, perception, and survival.
A Combat Focused Mageknight gets 4 skill ranks + Int modifier per level.
If at first level the Mageknight selects Magic focus he also adds Craft, Fly, Knowledge (any) and Use Magic Device
A Magic Focused Mageknight gets 6 skill ranks + Int modifier per level.
Class Features:
The following are the class features for the Mageknight.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mageknights are
proficient with all simple weapons plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Mageknights are
also proficient with light armor. A Mageknight can cast
Mageknight spells while wearing light armor without
incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like
any other arcane spellcaster, a Mageknight wearing
medium or heavy armor, or using a shield, incurs a
chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a
somatic component. A multiclass Mageknight still incurs
the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells
received from other classes.
Spells: A Mageknight casts arcane spells drawn from the
Mageknight spell list (below). He can cast any spell
he knows without preparing it ahead of time, assuming
he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for
the spell’s level.
To learn or cast a spell, a Mageknight must have a Charisma
score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty
Class for a saving throw against a summoner’s spell is 10 +
the spell level + the Mageknight's Charisma modifier.
A Mageknight can cast only a certain number of spells of
each spell level each day. His base daily spell allotment is
the same as a Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells
per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table 1–3 of
the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
A Mageknight's selection of spells is extremely limited.
A Mageknight begins play knowing four 0-level spells
and two 1st-level spells of the mageknight's choice. At
each new mageknight level, he gains one or more new
spells as indicated on Table: Bard spells known. (Unlike spells per
day, the number of spells a Mageknight knows is not
affected by his Charisma score. The numbers on the Table
are f ixed.)
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third mageknight
level thereafter (8th, 11th, and so on), a Mageknight can
choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already
knows. In effect, the summoner “loses” the old spell in
exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must
be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and
it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level
Mageknight spell he can cast. A mageknight may swap out
only a single spell at any given level and must choose
whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he
gains new spells known for the level.
Cantrips: A Mageknight learns a number of cantrips,
or 0-level spells, as noted on Table Bard Spells
Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but
they may be cast any number of times per day. Cantrips
prepared using other spell slots, due to metamagic feats,
for example, consume spell slots as normally.
Bloodline: Each Mageknight has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a Mageknight might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. A Mageknight must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of Mageknight. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. If a Mageknight gains a level of sorcerer the sorcerous bloodline matches the magekight bloodline.
A mageknight only gains the spells known for a given bloodline as soon as they are able to cast spells of the bloodline spells given level. For example an abberent bloodline mageknight learns 'Enlarge Person at level 1, see invisibility at level 4 etc.' Given the mage knights natural spellcasting peak, bloodspells above level 6 are never learned. A mage knight gains no other power, feat or ability associated with bloodlines.
Eschew Materials: A mageknight gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Combat/Magic Focus- At first level a mageknight must choose weather he wishes to focus on combat or magic. This choice is pivotel, as it dictates some significant abilities gained over the mageknights career.
Once the choice is made it cannot be changed.
Combat Focus:Martial Skill. At 1st level mageknight who selected Combat as their focus gains proficiency with all martial weapons and medium armor and shields (but not tower shields). Normal arcane spell failure applies until 5th level when a mageknight has become accustomed to medium armor then no longer suffers spell failure in medium armor. At 12th level a combat focused mageknight no longer suffers from spl failure from shields.
Combat Focus: (Arcane Bond)- At first level a Combat Focused Mageknight selects a weapon to use as an arcane bonded item. It behaves as a bonded item just as a wizard's arcane bonded weapon with one exception, the Mageknight can use the weapon to trace any required somatic components of a spell. This has the effect of allowing a Mageknight to cast even if his bond is a two handed weapon or if his offhand is full (for example: holding a shield)
Combat Focus (Arcane Quickening): At 2nd level the Combat focused Mageknight has discovered how to empower himself with arcane fire. He can infuse himself with eldritch power by burning a spellslot as a free action. Doing so grants him a bonus to speed (+5ft per spell level consumed), miss chance vs melee/ranged attacks/targeted spells (10%, +5% per spell level consumed), bonus to saves (equal to spell level consumed) and a bonus to attack and damage (equal to spell level consumed). This ability only lasts for as many rounds equal to the level of spell consumed (6rounds for a 6th level spell). Using this ability is not without it's price however, as the mageknight takes one point of Charisma damage every round he spends quickend. This abiltiy damage can be removed normally or disappears after a number of minutes equal to the spell level consumed. If the mageknight uses a quickening whilst still suffering Charisma damage from a previous use he takes double damage and is fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the spell level consumed at the end of the quickening. If he does it a third time before the ability damage is healed he takes triple damage and is exhausted for a number of hours equal to the spell level consumed. If the mageknight does enough ability damage to himself whilst in a quickening to bring his Charisma score to 0, the arcane fire consumes him. He dies in a brilliant flash of heat and light in an explosive burst that is 5ft in size per level and does 1d6 eldritch damage per level. nothing remains of his body but he can be ressurected normally.
Combat Focus (Fighter study):A combat focused mageknight epouses combat in all it's forms and is a dedicated martial student. He gains a bonus combat feat at level 5, 10, 15 and 20.
Magical Focus (Energy focus): From 1st level Whenever a magical focused mageknight casts an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, he adds his mageknight level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell. At 20th level, whenever he casts an evocation spell you can roll twice to penetrate a creature's spell resistance and take the better result.
Magical Focus (Easy Extend): at 2nd level A magic focused Mageknight relies on Magic for defence and attack and learns to effortlessly extend the duration of all spells. Any spell cast by a magic focused mageknight is automatically extended. This ability only applies to mageknight spells.
Magical Focus (Metamagic focused): At 4th level Whenever a mageknight applies a metamagic feat to a spell that increases the slot used by at least one level, increase the spell's DC by +1. This bonus does not apply to spells modified by the Heighten/Extend Spell feat or modified by the Easy extend class ability. This ability improves as the mageknight levels up. The DC increase to any metamagicked spell imprvoves again at 8th and 16th level. Meaning a spell with any metamagic feats applied at level 16 has a +3 to the save DC (this allows a magic focused Mageknight to have a reliable save DC on his offensive spells).
Magical Focus (Focused Study): A magical focused mageknight is a quintessential blaster, as such they develop such an affinity for the spell school at 5th, 8th, 11th, 15th and 18th level they can learn an extra evocation spell of any level they can cast. These spells are added to their spells known list.
Channel spell: A Mageknight can channel spells through his weapon. The spell selected must be offensive in nature. Doing so is part of an attack action and affects only the target of the attack. The affected target is only affected on the first successful strike (meaning this can be used as part of a full attack even if the first attack misses) and makes saves as normal. This ability can be used 1/day at level 3, and again at every 3rd level until a max of 6 at level 18.
Spell cleave: At 12th level mageknight who successfully strikes an opponent whislt channeling and successfully cleaves can have the channeled spell affect the target being hit by the cleave.
Greater Spell Cleave: At 20th level a mageknight who successfully strikes an opponent whislt channeling and successfully great cleaves can have the channeled spell affect the targets being hit by the great cleave.
There you have it. One class, 2 sides a FIGHTER/mage and a Fighter/MAGE.
Comments?
| Ardenup |
Now before the flames start.
1. Please read the class abilities carefully and note, that a Mageknight only gets either the Combat Focus or Casting Focus abilities but NOT Both.
2. My idea for this class came mostly from a few requirements that were harped on in various gish boards. The Arcane Quikening ability was thought up because so many complained that action economy meant ftr/mages couldn't be ready to rock in the first round. I know it's poweRful (particularly at high levels) hence the ability damage, which hurts casting and the short duration. It may not be enough of a draw back and may need to be changed to a per day ability.
3. Most people seem to equate ftr/mages as ftr/evokers, hence the strong evocation focus on the caster focus. Also the DC increasing class ability (some will shout 'UBER') only allows a Mageknight to keep his lower level offensive spells relevant to a full caster. eg magekight casting a chain lightning will have the same (roughly) DC as a straight caster. Perhaps less so, since a full caster will likely have a higher primary stat.
4. The class has 2 facets. One strongly melee focused, one strongly caster focused. This was pointed out as two wished for flavors.
5. It's late and I'm too tired to do a spellist. It should focus on Transmutation, Evocation, Necromancy (With defensive illusion). No bigger than Bard spells known.
6. I tried to balance this against classes like Bard, Summoner and (particularly) inquisitor.
7. Action economy is a big deal hence most class abilites are either free actions or part of an attack action. Your swift actions will be used for arcane strike.
8. I see 2 play styles for this class- the Combat focused version is a frontliner, and the Casting focused one is a blaster/support melee. If you want a primary caster who can fight a bit, well Wiz/Eldritch Knight does that. I don't think it can outfight a fighter and certainly with a narrow blasty/transmuty only spellist it can't replace a full caster.
9. If anyone REALLY likes this (or we as a board, massage it into something balanced and good) then feel free to cut/paste it in a google doc. I'd like to but will likely just keep the origonal as a homebrew.
Hope this is well recieved. Tired....NEED...SLEEP....
(DAMMIT, MISSED MY OWN 2ND POST)
| Mairkurion {tm} |
I will only say this: I got the Gish miniature yesterday. That is all.
EDIT: Welcome Ardenup, and good luck.
| stringburka |
Not trying to be picky, but could you please improve the formatting a bit? Having the table and bolding at the beginning of new abilities makes it far easier to read.
| Sevus |
I had the time on my hands, and threw together this. Keep in mind this is just something I came up with as an example spell list since the OP didn't create one, it may not be what the OP meant at all.
Mageknight Spell List
0-level:
acid splash, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, mending, ray of frost, touch of fatigue
1st-level:
burning hands, chill touch, endure elements, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, mage armor, magic missle, magic weapon, ray of enfeeblement, reduce person, shield, shocking grasp, true strike
2nd level:
acid arrow, bear’s endurance, boar’s strength, cat’s grace, eagle’s splendor, flaming sphere, fox’s cunning, ghoul touch, resist energy, scorching ray, shatter
3rd-level:
blink, dispel magic, fireball, flame arrow, fly, greater magic weapon, haste, keen edge, lightning bolt, protection from energy, ray of exhaustion, slow, vampiric touch, wind wall
4th-level:
dimension door, fire shield, ice storm, lesser globe of invulnerability, mass enlarge person, mass reduce person, shout, stoneskin, wall of fire, wall of ice
5th-level:
cone of cold, interposing hand, overland flight, telekinesis, wall of force, waves of fatigue
6th-level:
chain lightning, disintegrate, forceful hand, freezing sphere, globe of invulnerability, greater dispel magic, mass bear’s endurance, mass bull’s strength, mass cat’s grace, mass eagle’s splendor, mass fox’s cunning, mass owl’s wisdom, transformation
| Ardenup |
Hi,
got some sleep, put it in a google doc and made some changes.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXlTYYW9enwPZGQ3M3RicHRfMHFnODh4M2d3& hl=en
1. Arcane Quickening works a bit like rage now. Powerful but easy to lose it and you suffer if you do. When to quicken becomes a pivotel choice now...
2. Both focuses can boost they're spell saves now, cost HP to do it.
3. Spellist is done as well. May need work and I'll take suggestions.
For the Fighty focused- Plays like a very selfish cleric minus healing. Can fight well with quicken up (a 20th level quicken adds +6 to attack and damage for a total of 22 AB on a BAB 15+Wpn fcs. As opposed to a fighter who has an AB of 26 -BAB 20, Weapon Training 4, Gtr Weapon Focus and a Damage bonus of +8 for wpn training and gtr spl)
A heroism spell can raise this by 2 but most seem to think that would waste a whole round (unforgivable for a melee char) buffing. Don't forget this ability chews your highest level slots to be anygood.
So even buffed just below as good as a fighter in terms of attack and can lay a spell effect on while attacking (spell channel)
Hmmmm....Maybe I should cut the damage bonus from Quickening. Since a char will obviosly take Arcane Strike....AND the spell effect...
Yes, currently overpowered. I'll dump the damage bonus from quickening.
On the casty side- free extends, plus 3/day free metamagic on up to 6th level spells....Yeah I reckon that might be about right.
Opinions?
PS- could the SRD dude (sorry forgot you name) put this in the custom content section if it merits use?
| Sevus |
Is there a reason you gave it Elemental Body I-III but not Beast Shape I-IV or Form of the Dragon I? Elementals don't seem any more flavorful for the class than the other polymorph spells, and if it's a balance issue, I don't see that they need Elemental Body at all.
Quickening seems awfully convoluted, but a useful high-risk/high-reward ability. I'll have to actually playtest it to see how well it works. Also, on Battlecast...can an Arcane Focus Mageknight use Battlecast and stack metamagic feats? For example, use Battlecast and cast a Maximized, Empowered, Widened Fireball as a 3rd-level spell? Or can only one feat be applied? If the former, it has potential for abuse somewhat balanced by the fact it's so limited use and you have to actually take all those metamagic feats, but if the later, you might be able to afford increasing its amount of uses per day.
Just my initial two cents.
| Ardenup |
Is there a reason you gave it Elemental Body I-III but not Beast Shape I-IV or Form of the Dragon I? Elementals don't seem any more flavorful for the class than the other polymorph spells, and if it's a balance issue, I don't see that they need Elemental Body at all.
There hasn't to my mind been an official ruling on casting in elemental body (my group rules yes) whereas breast shape loses your ability to cast. Besides since Mageknight's has an affinity your energy based blasts- I thought limited elemental shifting made flavor sense.
Quickening seems awfully convoluted, but a useful high-risk/high-reward ability. I'll have to actually playtest it to see how well it works.
It is high risk/high payoff. I can see a Quickend Mageknight using Arcane Strike and Power Attack will have a near full fighter DPR, with a spell tacked on with channel. It costs high level spells and is easy to lose because If it wasn't i'd be too good and abusable. As it is a Mageknight has to weigh being real good at melee (both offensively and defensively) vs not being able to cast any helpful party spells. They also aren't a straight mage killa as opposing casters have plenty of ways to ruin it for them. Later on using it with Spell Cleave/Great Cleave can wreck an enemy formation so it needed a strong drawback.
Also, on Battlecast...can an Arcane Focus Mageknight use Battlecast and stack metamagic feats? For example, use Battlecast and cast a Maximized, Empowered, Widened Fireball as a 3rd-level spell? Or can only one feat be applied? If the former, it has potential for abuse somewhat balanced by the fact it's so limited use and you have to actually take all those metamagic feats, but if the later, you might be able to afford increasing its amount of uses per day.
The idea is to use it with one metamagic feat only. Since adding a feat normally increases casting time you can't do it. I'll note it in the description.
Also ditched the 20th level feat/spell in favor off a capstone- check it out.
Cheers.
(I'll playtest it this week), have a go yourself and let me know...
| Caineach |
The spell list is missing the spells that allow F/M to survive in melee, and some others that are key. They don't have the high AC of other classes, so they need spells like displacement and mirror image. He could really use Heroism and False Life. I would also like to see dimmention door, some of the body/shape spells, and the invisibility spells.
Cold Napalm
|
Humm...the google doc isn´t working for me :( . So I can´t read the entire class. That said, I really do prefer fighter/wizards so this base class doesn´t quite work for what I personally like as it uses the sorcerer magic system. Doesn´t mean it can´t be a good fit for a great deal of people...but honestly those of us who like wizard based fighter/mages get very little love.
| Ardenup |
The spell list is missing the spells that allow F/M to survive in melee, and some others that are key. They don't have the high AC of other classes, so they need spells like displacement and mirror image. He could really use Heroism and False Life. I would also like to see dimmention door, some of the body/shape spells, and the invisibility spells.
Damn, board ate my reply.
He does has those spells but no Mirror Image (adjudication issues with quickening)Napalm,Not sure why the google doc not working. I'll post the newest version.
| Ardenup |
This is the most current version of the Mageknight at
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXlTYYW9enwPZGQ3M3RicHRfMHFnODh4M2d3& %20hl=en
Link seems to work fine for me even if signed out. Cut.paste it in the address bar, don't click on it.
[Link]http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXlTYYW9enwPZGQ3M3RicHRfMHFnODh4M2d3& %20hl=en[/Link]
Mageknight
Similar to sorcerers, some are born with magic as an inate talent but barely understood. Unlike their more common bretheren though some born with this power have a warrior's heart and would rather use it in a more direct (they would say less cowardly) manner against their enemies. These are the mageknights, beings who blend sorcerous power with martial prowess into a seemless whole. These knights have found a harmony between two disparate disciplines, with a focus and power unrivalled and they believe there is nothing they can't kill.
Role: Mageknight's make versatility a specialty. They'll tell you they're good at nearly everything, but in truth a mageknight tends to function mostly based upon thier focus. Melee focused mageknights tend to be at the forefront meeting tooth and claw with blade and shield.
Magic focused Mageknights tend to have a narrow but very focused ability to cast some incredibly damaging spells.
Alighnment: any
HD: d8
Class Skills:
The Mageknight's class skills are Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim.
If at first level the Mageknight selects Combat focus he also adds intimidate, perception, and survival.
A Combat Focused Mageknight gets 4 skill ranks + Int modifier per level.
If at first level the Mageknight selects Magic focus he also adds Craft, Fly, Knowledge (any) and Use Magic Device
A Magic Focused Mageknight gets 6 skill ranks + Int modifier per level.
Skill points per level
A Combat Focused Mageknight gets 4 skill ranks + Int modifier.
A Magic Focused Mageknight gets 6 skill ranks + Int modifier.
Table: Bard
Level BAB Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Spells
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 0 2 2 Bloodline, Eschew Materials, Combat Fcous (arcane bond, martial skill) or Magic Focus (Evocation focus), Channel Spell 1/day 1 — — — — —
2nd +1 0 3 3 Arcane Quickening or Easy Extend 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 1 3 3 Channel Spell 2/day 3 — — — — —
4th +3 1 4 4 Offensive Overwhelm (1d6, +1 DC,SR)
3 1 — — — —
5th +3 1 4 4 Combat Feat or Extra Spell 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 2 5 5 Channel Spell 3/day 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 2 5 5 Endurance or Battlecast 1/day 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 2 6 6 Offensive Overwhelm (2d6, +2 DC,SR) 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 3 6 6 Channel Spell 4/day 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 3 7 7 Combat Feat or Extra Spell 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 3 7 7 Spell Cleave 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 4 8 8 Channel Spell 5/day 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 4 8 8 Toughness or Battlecast 2/day
5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 4 9 9 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 5 9 9 Combat Feat or Extra Spell, Channel Spell 6/day 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 5 10 10 Offensive Overwhelm (3d6, +3 DC,SR)
5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 5 10 10 Greater Spell Cleave 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 6 11 11 Channel Spell 7/day 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 6 11 11 Diehard or Battlecast 3/day 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 6 12 12 Tireless Quickening or Mastery of Shaping 5 5 5 5 5 5
Class Features:
The following are the class features for the Mageknight.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mageknights are
proficient with all simple weapons plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Mageknights are
also proficient with light armor. A Mageknight can cast
Mageknight spells while wearing light armor without
incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like
any other arcane spellcaster, a Mageknight wearing
medium or heavy armor, or using a shield, incurs a
chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a
somatic component. A multiclass Mageknight still incurs
the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells
received from other classes.
Spells: A Mageknight casts arcane spells drawn from the
Mageknight spell list (below). He can cast any spell
he knows without preparing it ahead of time, assuming
he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for
the spell’s level.
To learn or cast a spell, a Mageknight must have a Charisma
score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty
Class for a saving throw against a summoner’s spell is 10 +
the spell level + the Mageknight's Charisma modifier.
A Mageknight can cast only a certain number of spells of
each spell level each day. His base daily spell allotment is
the same as a Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells
per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table 1–3 of
the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
A Mageknight's selection of spells is extremely limited.
A Mageknight begins play knowing four 0-level spells
and two 1st-level spells of the mageknight's choice. At
each new mageknight level, he gains one or more new
spells as indicated on Table: Bard spells known. (Unlike spells per
day, the number of spells a Mageknight knows is not
affected by his Charisma score. The numbers on the Table
are fixed.)
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third mageknight
level thereafter (8th, 11th, and so on), a Mageknight can
choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already
knows. In effect, the summoner “loses” the old spell in
exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must
be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and
it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level
Mageknight spell he can cast. A mageknight may swap out
only a single spell at any given level and must choose
whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he
gains new spells known for the level.
Cantrips: A Mageknight learns a number of cantrips,
or 0-level spells, as noted on Table Bard Spells
Known. These spells are cast like any other spell, but
they may be cast any number of times per day. Cantrips
prepared using other spell slots, due to metamagic feats,
for example, consume spell slots as normally.
Table: Mageknight Spells Known
Level 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 4 2 — — — — —
2nd 5 3 — — — — —
3rd 6 4 — — — — —
4th 6 4 2 — — — —
5th 6 4 3 — — — —
6th 6 4 4 — — — —
7th 6 5 4 2 — — —
8th 6 5 4 3 — — —
9th 6 5 4 4 — — —
10th 6 5 5 4 2 — —
11th 6 6 5 4 3 — —
12th 6 6 5 4 4 — —
13th 6 6 5 5 4 2 —
14th 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th 6 6 6 5 4 4 —
16th 6 6 6 5 5 4 2
17th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 5 4 4
19th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
Bloodline: Each Mageknight has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a Mageknight might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. A Mageknight must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of Mageknight. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. If a Mageknight gains a level of sorcerer the sorcerous bloodline matches the magekight bloodline.
A mageknight only gains the spells known for a given bloodline as soon as they are able to cast spells of the bloodline spells given level. For example an abberent bloodline mageknight learns 'Enlarge Person at level 1, see invisibility at level 4 etc.' Given the mage knights natural spellcasting peak, bloodspells above level 6 are never learned. A mage knight gains no other power, feat or ability associated with bloodlines.
Eschew Materials: A mageknight gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Combat/Magic Focus- At first level a mageknight must choose weather he wishes to focus on combat or magic. This choice is pivotel, as it dictates some significant abilities gained over the mageknights career.
Once the choice is made it cannot be changed.
Combat Focus:Martial Skill. At 1st level mageknight who selected Combat as their focus gains proficiency with all martial weapons and medium armor and shields (but not tower shields). Normal arcane spell failure applies until 5th level when a mageknight has become accustomed to medium armor then no longer suffers spell failure in medium armor. At 12th level a combat focused mageknight no longer suffers from spl failure from shields.
Combat Focus: (Arcane Bond)- At first level a Combat Focused Mageknight selects a weapon to use as an arcane bonded item. It behaves as a bonded item just as a wizard's arcane bonded weapon with one exception, the Mageknight can use the weapon to trace any required somatic components of a spell. This has the effect of allowing a Mageknight to cast even if his bond is a two handed weapon or if his offhand is full (for example: holding a shield)
Combat Focus (Arcane Quickening): At 2nd level the Combat focused Mageknight has discovered how to empower himself with arcane fire. He can infuse himself with eldritch power by burning a spellslot as a free action. Doing so grants him a bonus to speed (+5ft per spell level consumed), miss chance vs melee/ranged attacks/targeted spells (15%, +5% per spell level consumed), bonus to saves (equal to spell level consumed) and a bonus to attack (equal to spell level consumed) . This ability only lasts for as many rounds equal to the level of spell consumed, plus the Mageknight's constitution modifier.(6rounds for a 6th level spell + Con mod). Using this ability is not without it's price however, as the mageknight can only cast spells using the spell channel ability while quickend. A mageknight may cease using Arcane quickening in order to cast a spell normally as a free action but is fatigued at the end of the quickening for a number of minutes equal to the spell level used for the quicken. Any effect that causes the mageknight to be fatigued, exhausted, stunned, or panicked also stops the quickening, failing a saving throw vs a calm emotions, charm, dominate or similar mind affecting spell also ceases quickening. A mageknight may enter a quickening again, in the same encounter but cannot do so if he is under any of the above status effects. Quickening miss chance does not stack with spell effects like displacement, use whichever value is higher.
Combat Focus (Fighter study):A combat focused mageknight epouses combat in all it's forms and is a dedicated martial student. He gains a bonus combat feat at level 5, 10, 15.
Combat focus (Tough Caster): At the indicated levels, the mageknight recieves the Endurance, Toughness and Diehard bonus feats. He does not need to meet the preq. to meet them.
Combat Focus (Tireless Quicken): At 20th level a Combat focused Mageknight has become one with the magic that empowers him. He no longer suffers Fatigue when he ends his quicken, infact he can now cast normally even while quickend and can remain quickened even if he suffers fatigue, exhaustion and is immune to fear. Only successfully stunning or domination can bring him out of his quicken.
Magical Focus (Evocation focus): From 1st level Whenever a magical focused mageknight casts an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, he adds his mageknight level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This damage is of the same type as the spell. At 20th level, whenever he casts an evocation spell you can roll twice to penetrate a creature's spell resistance and take the better result.
Magical Focus (Easy Extend): at 2nd level A magic focused Mageknight relies on Magic for defence and attack and learns to effortlessly extend the duration of all spells. Any spell cast by a magic focused mageknight is automatically extended. This ability only applies to mageknight spells.
Magical Focus (Eclectic Study): A magical focused mageknight is a much more versatile caster than his combat counterpart, as such they develop a knack for other avenues of magic. At 5th, 10th, 15th level they can learn an extra spell from either the evocation, conjuration, transmutation or necromancy school of any level they can cast. These spells are added to their spells known list.
Magical Focus (battlecast): At the indicated levels the Casting focused Mageknight can cast a spell modified by any one feat the mageknight knows without adjusting the spells level or normal casting time. Only one feat can be used casting in this manner- for example a Maximised Fireball could be cast (even using Offensive Overwhelm to increase the DC) but not an Empowered, Maximised Fireball.
Magical Focus (Mastery of shaping): A Magical Focused mageknight has become so proficient with blasting magic he can now leave holes in his spell areas so as to not harm his allies. A mageknights instantaneous spells never hit allies even if they are in the area of effect. Spells with a duration also have a safe spot on the ally but if the ally chosses to leave this spot they are affected normally on all subsequent rounds and the origonal safe spot dissappears.
Offensive overwhelm:A Mageknight's spells are particularly potent. Due to his focused training a Mageknight learns to empower his spells with arcane fire to ensure success. At 4th level Whenever a mageknight casts an offensive spell either by normal means, through a wand or staff he has created himself or through his channel spell ability he mayincrease the spell's DC, and the bonus to overcome spell resistance increase by +1 by taking 1d6 arcane fire damage to himself as part of the casting. This ability improves as the mageknight levels up. At 8th and 16th level he can choose to take another d6 damage to increase the Save and SR check bonus. Meaning a spell cast at level 16 has a +3 to the save DC and +3 to overcome spell resistance if the mageknight takes 3d6 damage as part of the action to cast (this allows a magic focused Mageknight to have a reliable save DC on his offensive spells).
Channel spell: A Mageknight can channel spells through his weapon. The spell selected must be offensive in nature. Doing so is part of an attack action and affects only the target of the attack. The affected target is only affected on the first successful strike (meaning this can be used as part of a full attack even if the first attack misses) and makes saves as normal. This ability can be used 1/day at level 3, and again at every 3rd level until a max of 6 at level 18.
Spell cleave: At 11th level mageknight who successfully strikes an opponent whilst channeling and successfully cleaves can have the channeled spell affect the target being hit by the cleave.
Greater Spell Cleave: At 17th level a mageknight who successfully strikes an opponent whislt channeling and successfully great cleaves can have the channeled spell affect the targets being hit by the great cleave.
Toughness: A mageknight recieves Toughness as a Bonus Feat at level
Mageknight Spellist
0-level:
acid splash, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, light, mending, ray of frost, touch of fatigue, message
1st-level:
burning hands, chill touch, endure elements, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, floating disk, mage armor, magic missle, magic weapon, ray of enfeeblement, reduce person, shield, shocking grasp, true strike
2nd level:
acid arrow, bear’s endurance, blindness/deafness, bull's strength, blur, cat’s grace, continual flame, darkness, heroism, false life, flaming sphere, ghoul touch, invisibility, levitate, resist energy, scorching ray, shatter, touch of idiocy
3rd-level:
blink, call lightning, daylight, dispel magic, displacement, fireball, flame arrow, greater magic weapon, haste, keen edge, lightning bolt, ray of exhaustion, sleet strom, slow, vampiric touch, wind wall
4th-level:
agonize, bestow curse, dimension door, enervation, fire shield, ice storm, mass enlarge person, mass reduce person, shout, stoneskin, wall of fire, wall of ice, dimensional anchor, resilient sphere, elemental body 1
5th-level:
call lightning storm, baleful polymorph, cone of cold, elemental body 2, feeblemind, interposing hand, telekinesis, wall of force, waves of fatigue,
6th-level:
acid fog, chain lightning, disintegrate, elemental body 3, forceful hand, freezing sphere, grasping hand, greater shout, giantform 1, hellfire ray, mass bear’s endurance, mass bull’s strength, mass cat’s grace, mind blank, transformation, waves of exhaustion
Playing a Mageknight- This depends heavily upon your Focus and bloodline. A combat focused Mageknight is nearly always at the frontline- He is better armored and better trained than is counterpart, so relishes melee combat. Arcane Quickening works in a similar manner to rage and provides big combat bonuses. However there are many ways for a mageknight to have his quickening cut short, so they must be wary of enchantment effects or getting knocked senseless. Also using a quickening prevents regular spellcasting so once you use it you are unable to cast any utility spells or magically assist you allies. Dropping a quickening fatigues you as well so you need to stay close to the cleric to have the effect removed before you can quicken again.
An arcane focused Mageknight cannot quicken but in exchange can cast spells which cause alot more damage and last alot longer. Despite not having higher order spells they are quintessential blasters and seem to think any problem can be solved by torching it. Casting Focused mageknight's still have access to potent buff spells and will spend nearly as much time fighting as casting. They have a little more versatility as well reguarding spell selection and so can be more useful outside of combat. The Battlecast ability lets you add metamagic effects for free a couple to times a day (they usually favor maximise or widen)
| Ardenup |
Sorry for the Bad Look- table don't translate well with cut/paste.
Would like feedback on weather or not the Melee Mageknight should be allowed access to fighter feats, say letting 1/2 is mageknight feats count as fighter levels. EG an 8th level mage knight could take wpn specialisation.
On of my group suggested this, but again the point of this class is to give you a Hybrid about 75% of a fighter and 75% wizard (size 50/50 sucks)
Now a Combat Focused Mageknight has
BAB 15 and lets assume took Wpn Fcs- if he quickens with a 6th level slot, for 6 rds he gets +6 to hit, saves, 30ft enhacement to speed and 45% miss chance vs targeted spells and melee attacks for 6 rounds + con mod. Likely he took arcane strike so he'll have +5 to damage
BAB 15+1(Wpn Fcs)+6Quickening= 22 not counting STR or wpn enhancement
Damage= +5
Med Armor + Miss Chance
Cannot cast regular spells while quickened (until level 20)
A Fighter would have
BAB 20+4(wpn training)+2(Gtr Fcs)=26 counting STR or wpn enhancement
Damage= +8(wpn training+Gtr specialisation)
Much Higher AC and Better HP
I personally think this is sufficient, especially given that 7/day a Mageknight can throw a Spell effect into the attack and later cleave with the spell effect. Like the Paladin, it's a case of being good for a few seconds vs the fighter being good all the time.
Having access to fighter only feats (I think) would overpower it. Mostly because of the Channel spell ability but that's hard to quantify. But my player says that would be balanced vs the very late aquisition of those feats (since we're possibly saying 1/2 mageknight counts as fighter levels) and the Fatigue after quickening AND the fact you're usually burning high level slots to do it. I disagree.
Now a Arcane Focused Mage Knight doesn't get quickening but Can cast Herosim and Displacement on himself (and Would likely use a shield) and can use Channel Spell so still viable in Melee if he wants to but isa better suited to blasting with Battlecast.
|
Cold Napalm
|
Waiting til level 12 to ignore ASF of shields is too long.
Caster focused should get the same skill points as fighter focused...i.e. both should get 4 or 6.
Adding JUST 3 spells for caster focused over the course of 20 levels is kinda weak. If your gonna be caster focused, you should be able expand your spells known a bit more then that.
| Ardenup |
Waiting til level 12 to ignore ASF of shields is too long.
Agreed, they now ignore ASF from light shields at 5th level and heavy shields at 12th
Caster focused should get the same skill points as fighter focused...i.e. both should get 4 or 6.
I was trying to reflect the more studious nature of the caster focused getting more points, but if it makes it too complicated we'll go with just 4
Adding JUST 3 spells for caster focused over the course of 20 levels is kinda weak. If your gonna be caster focused, you should be able expand your spells known a bit more then that.
Agreed. I thought about an ability to allow then to prep 1 spl per level of the wizard list ,but mixing spont with prep would be clunky and a headache.
In any case I've changed it so they get 1 extra spell at 1,5,10,15,20 so a 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spell, with thrifty selection a Caster focused Mageknight might even fill the Utility caster role (albeit delayed)
The google doc is updated again, have a go at it in your game if you can. we are trying both today in 2 instances- 1 a dungeon crawl, 1 an arena (there will be a fighter, Illusionist and Cleric of Adabar in the group).
| Ardenup |
Ardenup wrote:He could try to optimise/break my Mageknight Base Class. Would really help see how balanced it is in the hands of a good optimiser.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXlTYYW9enwPZGQ3M3RicHRfMHFnODh4M2d3& hl=en
I'd like to see if it can become broken of if it would be banlanced now.
I'm playtesting both versions this week but I'm fairly confident it's ok as it is either 1. A totally selfish self buffer/melee'r
2. A great blaster (which is generally considered subpar- so being REAL good at it makes you OK.OK - I've taken a look.
1) I didn't see any obvious loopholes. A few abilities that are pretty good - but any decent class has a few of those.
2) I don't think it's unbalanced. The combat-based Mageknight kind of reminds me of a Bard mixed with a Duskblade. Pathfinder needs a decent gish.
3) If I see anything wrong with the class, it's that the blaster-option is pretty poor IMO. A Mageknight is casting lower level spells than an equivalent level sorcerer or wizard, which means lower DC's - but the mageknight can even it up by taking damage?
Also, a casting-oriented class needs way more spell castings. If you are a combatant who uses spells, then you aren't casting on most rounds, so no problem, but the "blaster" Mageknight doesn't have many other options - but he'll be out of spells quite quickly.
Really, a Druid (casting-oriented) is going to make a better blaster than this guy, and have way more staying power, while keeping pace on armor, BAB, HP, etc.
That said - I'm not sure what you would need to do to fix it. I'm almost wondering whether your options shouldn't be Combat/Magic, but instead could be something like "Melee/Ranged" or something like that.
4) You've done some cut and paste from the Summoner I'm guessing? Check your text...I noticed it referring to the Summoner in there in one place.
From an optimization standpoint, I would think the best option would be the combat-oriented Mageknight - maybe a two-handed...
I'll be looking hard for these with the playtest and let you know how it goes....
Marc Radle
|
Just a quick aside ... It might be a good idea to consider a differnt name since MageKnight is a pretty popular mini game by Wiz Kids if I'm not mistaken. Kind of like calling your class HeroClix or HeroScape ...
| CaspianM |
Looks interesting, though I guess with being 4pts behind in attack bonus really relegates this class to second line? I guess like with that bard kit it makes more sense looking at a sample character.
Edit: More offhand thoughts as I look at the class.
The Payoff/Risk factor of Arcane quickening seems kind of odd. At low levels the payoff seems kind of short duration and low on the effects, but scales to being reasonable when they can cast 6th level spells. If nothing else, some kind of duration increase might look better since you can't just chain quickenings one after the other because of fatigue. Oh right, that's the other thing, tagging the duration increase means some kind of CON focus, which is odd for what will essentially be a light fighter. Tagging it onto STR should help for duration and the Attribute Dependancy issue. Also it has amusing narrative consequences, or why not just onto their casting trait?
Why not full Martial proficiency? This class seems like it'd benefit a lot from free longbow use or greatswords. With quickening I guess the general class idea is to get into position and freak out and flank, rolling up on unsuspecting archers and wizard types, sort of some kind of monk/barbarian hybrid who could blast if they wanted to.
I'm going to have to second the DC for damage comment. Its kind of suboptimal, though if it were say 1/lvl that might make more sense, but still it might just be better to give the blasting version free upgrades.
Also, it'd be neat if at 20th their quickening let them fly.
| Ardenup |
Well,
we tested bith types at level 5, 12 and 20. We identified problems, made some better changes and it actually works nicely now. Check out the new version at the same google doc address. Quickening works on rounds per day now and Caster focused mageknight get their bloodline spells up to ninth a a spell like ability (like summoners) below is why we did it and how it worked.
Thoughts: The Melle version is alwalys having a hard time deciding to buff or fight and CAN do either well but not really both at the same time. The was a big problem at lower levels because in order to make your quicken good you had to burn your highest level spells, since 4/day combats are normal you often could do it for a Very limited time, so doing it meant your top tier spells were ALWAYS gone. It the new model you don't use spells to power it (and thus get your top spells back) but quickening is tracked in rounds (like rage) and you get less than a Barb (to balance against the spellcasting). 13 rds at level 20 plus con mod over 4 combats a day (assume CHA of 14) 15 rds so about 3 to 4 rds of quickening per combat. This is good as it strickly limits your abailable time for being good at melee. You can be a frontliner but only for a limited time. Trying to be the ONLY frontliner in a party is possible with clerical backup but difficult. Your DPR while quickend is good (plus arcane channeling).
You need the Toughness ability because at lower levels you've lowish AC, HP and low miss chance, at higher levels (once mithral becomes avail you'll need it to Burn HP for Overwhelm). Our playtest went two handed but this build could work as a sword/board or TWF. The class does suffer from a little MAD though.
New version seems to work well, starts out spending time 50/50 buffing/fighting but at higher levels can just melee (at the cost of helpful party casting) but should perserve quickening for BBEG's and not waste it on MOOK fights.
The Caster Version Played like a offensive cleric 50/50 Blasting and fighting at every level. This is a more action balanced class as the abilities give equal shift to fighting/casting where the other version is melee heavy. The 'caster' focused plays like a fighter/caster switch hitting between blast spells and backup melee. It needed the SLA because as Treantmonk pointed out he is short on castings but the free metamagic (the test version went with maximise) helps alot. This version would probably be more suited to Casting/archery than casting/melee but it does work. Plays (in combat) like a 'Blasty Bard' if you get my drift. Tactics and builds require you to have improved initiative so you can maximise a spell before you buddies close, then when blasting would hurt allies you switch to Mook mopup.
Your bloodline greatly effects versatility as well (arcane is probably the best) as it and eclectic learning can make you a trouble shooter.
Our 20th level playtest was actually kinda better than the melee since it was arcane blooded and multiple wishes rock! You'd think an elemental bloodline would be a better blaster but 6th level chain lighting maximised, with overwhelm does all the damage you'll need so I'd stick with bloodline which expand your versatility rather than add spell like blast effects.
Anyhow, the class seems done, we tried it in party's that had a straight fighter and wizard. They come close to but do not out do their specialist buddies. I'f you want a gish this is probably a good option becasue it offers being about 75% as good as a figther and 75% as good as a mage (high levels similar to a Wiz/Ftr/El Knight build) but this lets you play a Ftr/Mage from 1st level.
| MerrikCale |
Just a quick aside ... It might be a good idea to consider a differnt name since MageKnight is a pretty popular mini game by Wiz Kids if I'm not mistaken. Kind of like calling your class HeroClix or HeroScape ...
except that HeroClix makes no sense whereas Mageknight does
| Ardenup |
Sounds great, but isn't this what the prestige class Eldritch Knight is for?
Yes the Eldritch Kight fills a similar role, HOWEVER, we decided to come up with this because, most Ftr/Mage fans hate having to spend 7 levels playing a class which doesn't fit your end goal. A mageknight plays in a similar vein to an EK from 1st level. The inquisitor also plays like a Ftr/Mage, but the casting is devine based. It does, mechanically do what Gish fans like, which is stab dudes magically.
As for the name we can call it anything, I came up with MageKnight as Jason said we should be dumping the term gish. I hope any one who tries this class reports back from the trenches as I'd like to try to keep it on Paizo's radar (mostly to get them to eventually do a Ftr/Mage base class.) There IS a fan base for a Ftr/Mage class type.
Cheers.
|
Marc Radle
|
Marc Radle 81 wrote:Just a quick aside ... It might be a good idea to consider a differnt name since MageKnight is a pretty popular mini game by Wiz Kids if I'm not mistaken. Kind of like calling your class HeroClix or HeroScape ...except that HeroClix makes no sense whereas Mageknight does
Oh absolutely. I agree MageKnight is a really cool name. I wasn't suggesting that he change the class name to HeroClix :) I was just trying to make the point that, although MageKnight is indeed a cool name for such a class, the name has already been used by a miniature game company and therefore already has a great deal of name recognition (and actually is probably trademarked by that company)