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I heard from some players that over the last weekend that there were changes to what apl you can play. As far as I knew it used to be if you played a mod you had to be one step or the next apl away from the apl that the table is playing. Now, that has changed further I hear. Can anyone post where these changes are so I may find them? I appreciate it, thanks in advance.
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You might find what you're looking for in the Phase 1 Changes thread.
I *think* the Average Party Level still has to be close to/in the range of the Tier, but I haven't focused on those rules.
Nothing changed. I clarified the way it was supposed to work and that folks had been choosing to play up when they felt like it instead of playing up when their APL was the level in between tiers.
We talked about it here.
If the person you add to the table is much lower level than most everyone else at the table, yes, it's possible that adding someone to the table can lower the APL. Once you hit 6 players, though, you always add +1 to the APL which adjusts for the table size.
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If the person you add to the table is much lower level than most everyone else at the table, yes, it's possible that adding someone to the table can lower the APL. Once you hit 6 players, though, you always add +1 to the APL which adjusts for the table size.Yes, but you can still lower the APL by adding a 6th PC.
It's a flaw of the APL system, and one that some organized play campaigns learned while others didn't care for the silliness that it caused.
Honestly in terms of power/use going from 5 PCs down to 4 is more of a hit than gaining a 6th PC is an increase. If you believe in the (imho failed) APL system then there should be an adjustment between 4PCs and 5PCs more than there should be between 5PCs and 6PCs.
-James
I'm not so sure that you have a flaw there so much as you have a feature. Adding some protection for the lower end PC isn't such a bad thing.
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I'm not so sure that you have a flaw there so much as you have a feature. Adding some protection for the lower end PC isn't such a bad thing.
Well you have the situation where a group who feels nervous about playing at the tier that they belong in can lower that tier by adding a new 1st level character to the group.
This isn't all that good.
Better would be allowing parties to choose the tier that they would prefer to play at while giving the APL as a guideline for where they should feel the right amount of challenge.
The APL system is something that breaks on its own. With any push, pull or help in that from the players it fragments something horribly.
Personally, I think that the group should be in charge of that call. They are able to see whether they are a nicely balanced, cohesive group up for a challenge or a mismatched group of underachievers that will pose more danger to one another than the opponents.
As you raise in level the disparity between well built/designed characters and poorly build ones grows. At the same time so the forgiveness for lack of party cohesion lessens. A one size fits all number doesn't decently represent a party's strength and aptitude. Just as not all modules will be consistent in delivering the same steady level of challenge, neither will all parties be able to meet that bar.
Asking that it happens to always coincide with what happens to be the average of their levels is an unreasonable delusion.
-James
You the whole thing mixed up, Me and Shadow are real life friend that play pathfinder down here in Miami. We've all been trying to stay with each other levels, but some of us have already reaching 9th and now staring to play our low levels. We are not talking about bringing a first level character to a high-tier game. What i was saying is that we should not start playing our low level characters in some of the lower level tier games that are available to be played. The only reason someone would be playing a low level character to a game is give if its to make a legal table or the Play Play Play rule if that person has only a level 1 character and nothing else.
Even to make a legal table, a player cannot ever play up or down more than one sub-tier. So if you have a 1st level character that would normally play in sub-tier 1-2, the highest tier you could play is sub-tier 4-5 in a tier 1-5 scenario or sub-tier 3-4 in a tier 1-7 scenario. The same goes for the "play, play, play" rule, no more that one sub-tier up or down, otherwise the player would have to run a pre-gen in order to participate. Playing up or down a sub-tier is never allowed just because for the hell of it.
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Yes, but you can still lower the APL by adding a 6th PC.
It's a flaw of the APL system, and one that some organized play campaigns learned while others didn't care for the silliness that it caused.
Well you have the situation where a group who feels nervous about playing at the tier that they belong in can lower that tier by adding a new 1st level character to the group.
Okay - I just checked the math. You lower the APL by -1/5 = -0.2 for each level that the 5th player is lower and you lower it by -1/6 = -0.167. At the same time you add +1 to the APL by going from 5 to 6.
Under which circumstances does this really lower the tier the party plays in?
So lets start by going from 5 to 6. Even adding a new 1st level character you would need an APL of >7 off all other players !! before adding the first level character mathematically will lower the APL. Therefore if this is done for the sake of player being nervous while the rule also states that a player in level 1 must always try to play in tier 1-2 sub-Tier and that may not play up to sub-tier 6-7 then I can't believe that this really has happened in real life - or if it did - I find it offensive by the players and blaming the APL system for this behavior - well - make up your mind.
Now going to the issue of 4 player and adding a 5th one. Here each level that the 5th player is below the APL of the others will indeed lower the APL by -0.2. So when is this an issue:
4 players being APL 2.75 aka 3 which is sub tier 3-4 or a choice !! between tier 1-2 or 4-5 will go to 2.4. To me the original APL is close to 2 anyhow - so there isn't that much of a 'broken rule.
And as soon as the APL of the 4 players is 3 it won't work as they drop to 2.6 - rounded back where they started.
The next mathematical 'chance' to go down is at 4 players and APL 3.75 or 4 - adding a fifth player level 1 will drop them to 3.25/3.4. Now technically this would place them at APL 3 and a choice between tier 1-2 or tier 4-5. Common sense would hopefully prevail here and player would not choose lower in this case.
And that brings us back to the next mathematical downgrade that is sub-tier 6-7. Now we run back into the issue of a first level character playing a sub-tier he shouldn't play. If the other players are APL6 and he gets added to lower this to 5 and then the decision is to play down 3-4 instead of 'up' 6-7 then I feel this is a misuse of rules and not an issue of a broken one.
So all in all - apart of the special case of 4 player APL 2.75 before rounding - the addition of a first level character should not be legal or shouldn't lower the APL. To me this shows the APL rules are more stable as I would have assumed.
This leaves the issue that APL is imperfect in measuring the capabilities of a group. Yes - any group of 'good' players or balanced party will have it easier as a group of bad players and an unbalanced party. Unfortunately I see no way how to fix this with a rule. We don't have the luxury at a CON to know all players as we do in our home-campaign which runs since 5 years and therefore the GM could balance the scenario exactly right. And even then you will occasionally get it wrong.
Thod
We balance the statistical anomaly (which, frankly, I see as such a small anomaly as to be barely worth acknowledging since it has little-to-no effect on the math) by using Tier ranges and keeping PCs within their Tier range.
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We balance the statistical anomaly (which, frankly, I see as such a small anomaly as to be barely worth acknowledging since it has little-to-no effect on the math) by using Tier ranges and keeping PCs within their Tier range.
Just to clarify because I had this situation turn up at a recent event and may have to deal with it again: if the only characters showing up for a Tier 1-5 scenario are a 5th level and two 1st levels, is it acceptable to run a pregen 1st level character and let the 5th level play down to 1-2? I opted to do this rather than cancel the event since the area is sorely in need of more Pathfinder and usually has to fold up a table when no one signs up.
What if the situation involved several characters of level 4 and 5 and a single player shows up with a 6th level character who is sub-optimal from playing down in other scenarios. Is there a hard ceiling on Tier 1-5 that boots him entirely or can exceptions be made for characters that are higher level but below level in wealth and equipment from playing down?
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Just to clarify because I had this situation turn up at a recent event and may have to deal with it again: if the only characters showing up for a Tier 1-5 scenario are a 5th level and two 1st levels, is it acceptable to run a pregen 1st level character and let the 5th level play down to 1-2? I opted to do this rather than cancel the event since the area is sorely in need of more Pathfinder and usually has to fold up a table when no one signs up.
The APL in this example should be 2, right? (5+1+1+1/4) So that table is playing tier 1-2 subtier. Sucks for the level 5 guy.
I didn't see anything in the 2.2 rules addressing playing 'down', so unless I'm blind that means you can always play 'down' as long as you are within the tier? IE: A level 6 or 7 couldn't sit at this table because it's not tier appropriate.
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Josh has said repeatedly that you may never "play down" and may only "play up" one sub-tier to make an appropriate table. The replay rules partially address this issue - you may repeat a module with a different character, so maintaining alts is more viable without "splitting" your development and taking too much longer to level.
I'm a little lazy, but about 5 minutes of searching "play +down" and "tier +down" I'm not really finding anything in this vein. I found this
You really shouldn't play down ever. BUT if that's the only way you can play, then it's allowed.
The original example falls into this as explained.
And since 2.2 was just recently released I would expect a you may never kinda rule would show right up on the Guide?
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Josh has said repeatedly that you may never "play down" and may only "play up" one sub-tier to make an appropriate table. The replay rules partially address this issue - you may repeat a module with a different character, so maintaining alts is more viable without "splitting" your development and taking too much longer to level.I'm a little lazy, but about 5 minutes of searching "play +down" and "tier +down" I'm not really finding anything in this vein. I found this
You really shouldn't play down ever. BUT if that's the only way you can play, then it's allowed.The original example falls into this as explained.
And since 2.2 was just recently released I would expect a you may never kinda rule would show right up on the Guide?
That's kind of what I expected. He seemed more adamant that players shouldn't be turned away than anything else, although I would like an official answer from him about the level 6 guy, since that's definitely out of tier but still within one tier of the APL and the character is already sub-optimal from playing down in other scenarios. Of course, that's sort of a good argument against playing down so often.
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That's kind of what I expected. He seemed more adamant that players shouldn't be turned away than anything else, although I would like an official answer from him about the level 6 guy, since that's definitely out of tier but still within one tier of the APL and the character is already sub-optimal from playing down in other scenarios. Of course, that's sort of a good argument against playing down so often.
The level 6 character is black/white. Tier 1-5 mod, no play. Tier 1-7 mod, play. At least that's what I think :)
If you're 6th level and want to join a table playing a Tier 1-5 scenario, then make a new level 1 PC and join them.
If you're 5th level at a table with three 1st level players playing a Tier 1-5 scenario, you can play at that table, though your party's APL is 2 and you must play Tier 1-2.
Essentially, there's flexibility inside a given Tier band for a given scenario, but the flexibility isn't meant to extend beyond the Tier bands. I don't want to see level 6 PCs playing Tier 7-11 scenarios, I don't want to see level 1 PCs playing Tier 5-9 scenarios and so on.
Ultimately, what you need to do to make the table play is up to you, but keep in mind that by allowing folks to routinely play up (something that I very much frown on) or consistently forcing folks to play down, you're going to imbalance that player's character by either denying them level-appropriate rewards or by giving them too many rewards for their level.
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If you're 6th level and want to join a table playing a Tier 1-5 scenario, then make a new level 1 PC and join them.
If you're 5th level at a table with three 1st level players playing a Tier 1-5 scenario, you can play at that table, though your party's APL is 2 and you must play Tier 1-2.
Essentially, there's flexibility inside a given Tier band for a given scenario, but the flexibility isn't meant to extend beyond the Tier bands. I don't want to see level 6 PCs playing Tier 7-11 scenarios, I don't want to see level 1 PCs playing Tier 5-9 scenarios and so on.
Ultimately, what you need to do to make the table play is up to you, but keep in mind that by allowing folks to routinely play up (something that I very much frown on) or consistently forcing folks to play down, you're going to imbalance that player's character by either denying them level-appropriate rewards or by giving them too many rewards for their level.
Thanks, Josh. That's what I figured but I wanted to be sure. I'd like it if there was a higher level game for my 5th level to play in, but mustering in Tampa is proving a little tricky. I'm actually thinking of buying some map packs and item cards and sponsoring some kind of "Bring a friend who's new to Pathfinder, get a prize" event on Free RPG Day.