Mok |
So this came up last night in a Pathfinder Society game. An elephant trying to climb down a ladder. I've seen this issue before with horses and other creatures that you normally wouldn't expect to be able to do any climbing.
At the table various arguments were laid out:
Simulationist Argument
Climbing ladders needs a certain amount of anatomical features to be successful. You can't expect a horse to be able to climb a ladder. Perhaps a harness and rope system could be devised to lower the animal down, but in this instance the climb skill for the creature can't be used, or it needs to have a large negative modifier.
RAW (Rules as Written)
Nothing in the RAW seems to exclude certain creatures from climbing due to anatomy. The game is written with the assumption that humanoids are going to be using the skills most of the time, but it stays pretty abstract so that it can apply to any creature.
Gamist Argument
RAW arguments are quite often fit neatly into a gamist zone, but this is a further gamist extension. Animal companions are class features and so having barriers that prevent these animals from being able to continue with the party undermines the assumptions of the class balance.
In addition, the nature of Pathfinder Society games, with their limited time slots, means that if a more common sense approach is used there is little time for problem solving to try and find another way for the companion to join the party. The gamist structure of PFS, with its limited game time, which then injects simulationist expectations of resolution (an open ended time frame) can really hamper the class feature.
Thoughts?
ithuriel |
I have to side with common sense. No way a horse or elephant is climbing that ladder. Scroll/Potion of reduce animal and throw that elephant over your shoulder. Expensive though to avoid being thwarted by a ladder.
We had an elephant using acrobatics to pull off a jump some PCs couldn't make and avoiding AoO's tumble style the other night in PFS. It was funny, but that doesn't bother me at all.
Vendle |
My first thought would be that, were I the DM, I would have most of the players agreeing if I judged that elephants and horses could not climb ladders. I have the advantage of playing with an experienced group that is comfortable with minor rules changes for the sake of "realism", or what should be possible within limits in the game.
If we're just wanting to see the numbers, there are RPGA games. Apologies if I've offended a 4E fan; this is not a dig on 4th Ed. but rather at the way some local games are run. That's just my two cents.
Spacelard |
There is nothing in the rules saying a character can't tie feathers on his arms, flap them and fly.
Common sense and the real world should have solved this non-problem in seconds.
As for animal companions and mounts...Please...Thats just the way the cookie crumbles. You want an elephant as a mount? Fine but certain situations will mean that he will stay at home.
Entrance to dungeon 10' wide as are all the corridors?
Ladders?
Rooms full of mice?
Andrew Phillips |
Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.
Morgen |
Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.
Ahhh, excellent! So centaurs can climb up and down ladders!
(lucky post 777)
Spacelard |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Andrew Phillips wrote:Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.Ahhh, excellent! So centaurs can climb up and down ladders!
(lucky post 777)
Good upper body strength those centaurs.
EDIT
Of course you only posted this so you could be the centaur of attention.
Darkwolf |
Morgen wrote:Andrew Phillips wrote:Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.Ahhh, excellent! So centaurs can climb up and down ladders!
(lucky post 777)
Good upper body strength those centaurs.
EDIT
Of course you only posted this so you could be the centaur of attention.
Quit horsing around.
Spacelard |
Spacelard wrote:Quit horsing around.Morgen wrote:Andrew Phillips wrote:Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.Ahhh, excellent! So centaurs can climb up and down ladders!
(lucky post 777)
Good upper body strength those centaurs.
EDIT
Of course you only posted this so you could be the centaur of attention.
Why the long face?
Jason Rice |
Wolfthulhu wrote:Why the long face?Spacelard wrote:Quit horsing around.Morgen wrote:Andrew Phillips wrote:Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.Ahhh, excellent! So centaurs can climb up and down ladders!
(lucky post 777)
Good upper body strength those centaurs.
EDIT
Of course you only posted this so you could be the centaur of attention.
Can we please get back to the mane point of discussion? (I love puns).
Serously, if you are not familiar with horses, you would be suprised at the type of terrain they can climb. Still, I would have to draw the line at a ladder too. But then, I'm the type of DM that house-rules stuff to be more realistic, not less so. For instance, that "both hands" bit... I'd throw that out. That's the same as saying a one-armed person can't climb a ladder, which is also ridiculous.
Darkwolf |
Wolfthulhu wrote:Why the long face?Spacelard wrote:Quit horsing around.Morgen wrote:Andrew Phillips wrote:Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.Ahhh, excellent! So centaurs can climb up and down ladders!
(lucky post 777)
Good upper body strength those centaurs.
EDIT
Of course you only posted this so you could be the centaur of attention.
Oh nothing, I don't want to be a neigh-sayer.
SlimGauge |
Reminds me of Daleks and stairs ...
I think it's more of a size issue. Centaurs, Elephants and Horses are all large and would need a rather large, very sturdy ladder. Unless the animal is diminuative, and thus unable to reach the rungs, it might climb a regular ladder just fine
Cat climbing a ladder.
Beagle climbing a ladder.
Goat climbing a ladder
A ladder you can climb with no hands, but a rope ? If the animal doesn't have claws to grasp the rope with, it's out of luck.
Spacelard |
Spacelard wrote:There is nothing in the rules saying a character can't tie feathers on his arms, flap them and fly.Other than the fact that you need a fly speed to fly and nothing says tying feathers to your arms gives you a fly speed.
That is my point.
There is nothing in the rules saying that it doesn't give a fly speed either.Like I said common sense...
Cartigan |
Cartigan wrote:Spacelard wrote:There is nothing in the rules saying a character can't tie feathers on his arms, flap them and fly.Other than the fact that you need a fly speed to fly and nothing says tying feathers to your arms gives you a fly speed.That is my point.
There is nothing in the rules saying that it doesn't give a fly speed either.
Like I said common sense...
But climbing is a skill check. Nothing has to grant you the ability to climb, it's inherent if you make the check.
Spacelard |
Spacelard wrote:But climbing is a skill check. Nothing has to grant you the ability to climb, it's inherent if you make the check.Cartigan wrote:Spacelard wrote:There is nothing in the rules saying a character can't tie feathers on his arms, flap them and fly.Other than the fact that you need a fly speed to fly and nothing says tying feathers to your arms gives you a fly speed.That is my point.
There is nothing in the rules saying that it doesn't give a fly speed either.
Like I said common sense...
So are you saying that an elephant or a horse can climb an ordinary ladder or wall?
Virgil RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
cwslyclgh |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dire Elephant
Speed: 30ft., Climb 10ft.
Skills: Climb +23, Listen +8, Spot +8
So apparently somebody at WotC thinks (or thought) giant elephants can climb ladders and pretty much anything else (short of ice walls and such) by simply taking 10.
I'll never forget the looks of surprise on my players faces when those dire elephants ambushed them by leaping from the trees.
Jason Rice |
A ladder you can climb with no hands, but a rope ? If the animal doesn't have claws to grasp the rope with, it's out of luck.
Care to place a wager on a snake's ability to climb a rope?
They don't even have limbs, much less claws. Without house-ruling it, the "two hands free" thing doesn't apply here either.
Also...
I would think a horse could climb a ladder, as long as it's stable.
BAZONGA!
Cartigan |
MM2 pg 75 wrote:Dire Elephant
Speed: 30ft., Climb 10ft.
Skills: Climb +23, Listen +8, Spot +8So apparently somebody at WotC thinks (or thought) giant elephants can climb ladders and pretty much anything else (short of ice walls and such) by simply taking 10.
I'll never forget the looks of surprise on my players faces when those dire elephants ambushed them by leaping from the trees.
I think that's what the spikes are for.
Freehold DM |
Morgen wrote:Andrew Phillips wrote:Try this on those bone-headed RAW quoting children.
From the Climb skill:
"You need both hands free to climb,"
neither elephants nor horses have hands, nor do spiders. If anyone expects the RAW to handle every single exception to a rule they do not need to be playing table top RPGs, this is a perfect example of why RPGs have GMs.Ahhh, excellent! So centaurs can climb up and down ladders!
(lucky post 777)
Good upper body strength those centaurs.
EDIT
Of course you only posted this so you could be the centaur of attention.
Actually I'm running a centaur character in a Ptolus game, and he has had to make some Acrobatics checks to handle ladders, ropes and other such things that others haven't.
On the other hand, Elephants and horses won't really be able to handle a ladder. A ramp, sure, if it can support them, but not a ladder.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Lordy, you folks are all city boys, ain't ya?
Horses can climb stairs (but probably not steep ladders: their center of gravity's going to be far astern of their footholds, and they lack thumbs to pull themselves up).
Horses can't go down stairs. Their back legs can't bend to keep the weight distributed fore and back, and their forelegs can't take the weight.
Which means, if you coax a mare upstairs to, say, a principal's office, it takes a winch and tack to get her back down. Hilarious for teenagers.
There are a host of magical solutions, starting with spider climb or perhaps floating disk.
seekerofshadowlight |
Ok I have not read this whole thing but What are ya guys smoking at that table?
As Chris above me says ya could get one up set of stairs but not back down with out alot of work and a big window or the like unless ya put it to sleep and carry it.....not easy and anyone who says "can I have my horse climb this ladder" risks being hit with a book A lion could prob do it with ease but a horse
Bill Dunn |
I'll never forget the looks of surprise on my players faces when those dire elephants ambushed them by leaping from the trees.
Reminds me of a couple of old riddles:
Why shouldn't you walk through the jungle between 4 and 5 o'clock?
Because that's when elephants jump out of the trees.
Why do beavers have flat tails?
Because they walk through the jungle between 4 and 5 o'clock.
coff |
We had the Elephant and the ladder thing come up. It was a rope ladder and it was meant to be climbed down. DM ruled (and all but the Ranger's owner agreed) that the Elephant couldn't climb down the ladder. Thus the elephant just jumped down, made an acrobatics check and took 17 pts of damage. 60ft, that's not detrimental to a 7th level ranger with the animal companion feat from Seeker of Secrets.
Common sense usually dictates rulings at the table. A medium elephant on an angled ladder seems feasible to me. Down a rope ladder, no dice.
Spacelard |
Horses can't go down stairs. Their back legs can't bend to keep the weight distributed fore and back, and their forelegs can't take the weight.
Which means, if you coax a mare upstairs to, say, a principal's office, it takes a winch and tack to get her back down. Hilarious for teenagers.
NOW YOU TELL ME!
The wife is gonna be soooooo pi$$ed when she comes home...Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
(Adult elephants typically weigh in at 6 tons. Their legs have to remain straight when load-bearing, because a bnt leg san't support them.)
The force-per-square-inch of a elephant dropping 60 feet and landing on its feet is an interesting physics problem. Suffice it to say that elephants dropping more than four or five feet shatter their leg bones. That kind of weight dropped ten or fifteen feet would turn the animal into a loose association of bloody muscle and sinew.
Cartigan |
(Adult elephants typically weigh in at 6 tons. Their legs have to remain straight when load-bearing, because a bnt leg san't support them.)
The force-per-square-inch of a elephant dropping 60 feet and landing on its feet is an interesting physics problem. Suffice it to say that elephants dropping more than four or five feet shatter their leg bones. That kind of weight dropped ten or fifteen feet would turn the animal into a loose association of bloody muscle and sinew.
Dropping anyone 60 feet is going to result in a loose association of something. D&D is already ridiculous. Let's not pretend it isn't.
0gre |
(Adult elephants typically weigh in at 6 tons. Their legs have to remain straight when load-bearing, because a bnt leg san't support them.)
The force-per-square-inch of a elephant dropping 60 feet and landing on its feet is an interesting physics problem. Suffice it to say that elephants dropping more than four or five feet shatter their leg bones. That kind of weight dropped ten or fifteen feet would turn the animal into a loose association of bloody muscle and sinew.
Yeah, that said I think you have to draw the line between common sense and reasonable game play. Are you going to sideline a game so the party can spend 2 hours dealing with getting an elephant down a drop?
At 6th level the solution to the elephant getting down is easy, a wand of feather fall is only 750gp. For getting up I would suggest a ranger with an elephant get a wand of reduce animal. Expensive but that's part of the cost of having a massive pet. Levitate or spider climb also work also but are not on the ranger's spell list.
Ravingdork |
Reminds me of Daleks and stairs ...
I think it's more of a size issue. Centaurs, Elephants and Horses are all large and would need a rather large, very sturdy ladder. Unless the animal is diminuative, and thus unable to reach the rungs, it might climb a regular ladder just fine
Cat climbing a ladder.
Beagle climbing a ladder.
Goat climbing a ladderA ladder you can climb with no hands, but a rope ? If the animal doesn't have claws to grasp the rope with, it's out of luck.
Those are effectively stairs rather than ladders. None of those animals would be able to climb a perfectly vertical ladder very easily (if at all).
(Adult elephants typically weigh in at 6 tons. Their legs have to remain straight when load-bearing, because a bnt leg san't support them.)
The force-per-square-inch of a elephant dropping 60 feet and landing on its feet is an interesting physics problem. Suffice it to say that elephants dropping more than four or five feet shatter their leg bones. That kind of weight dropped ten or fifteen feet would turn the animal into a loose association of bloody muscle and sinew.
I picture the elephant holding onto something with its trunk while it gently lowers itself down, half falling/half rolling onto its butt and back. After that it is a simply matter of righting itself.