Question about Quickened spell


Rules Questions


Quicken Spell (Metamagic) wrote:
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Am I reading the rules correctly, that a 1st level quickened spell takes a 5th level spell slot? If so, what's the advantage of having a low level spell quickened at the cost of a much more powerful spell?

Thanks!

Dark Archive

Denim N Leather wrote:
Quicken Spell (Metamagic) wrote:
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Am I reading the rules correctly, that a 1st level quickened spell takes a 5th level spell slot? If so, what's the advantage of having a low level spell quickened at the cost of a much more powerful spell?

Thanks!

Spellcasting is a rather powerful ability, so casting 2 spells in one round can be quite devastating to an enemy. The price for this is one of your high level slots.

That's just one example though.


Denim N Leather wrote:
Quicken Spell (Metamagic) wrote:
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Am I reading the rules correctly, that a 1st level quickened spell takes a 5th level spell slot? If so, what's the advantage of having a low level spell quickened at the cost of a much more powerful spell?

Thanks!

It's fairly simply actually. The fact that you can cast that spell in the same round that you can cast another spell.

Or think of it this way....for the cost of a 5th level spell and a 3rd level spell, you can cast Magic Missile and Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Pick a good 3rd level spell in one round.


Thanks! That's what I thought.

By the time you can use a Quickened spell, I think that there are more powerful options; ie, Phatasmal Killer; unless you're quickening a buff.

Interesting. Thanks again!


Denim N Leather wrote:

Thanks! That's what I thought.

By the time you can use a Quickened spell, I think that there are more powerful options; ie, Phatasmal Killer; unless you're quickening a buff.

Interesting. Thanks again!

Don't forget that there are ways of lowering the cost of applying metamagic, so it isn't always 4 levels higher.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Quickened Spell *is* a more powerful option. Hit the enemy with some save-or-suck spell and get a quickened dimension door so that they can't reach you.


Charender wrote:
Denim N Leather wrote:

Thanks! That's what I thought.

By the time you can use a Quickened spell, I think that there are more powerful options; ie, Phatasmal Killer; unless you're quickening a buff.

Interesting. Thanks again!

Don't forget that there are ways of lowering the cost of applying metamagic, so it isn't always 4 levels higher.

Oh, ree-hee-HEALY?

I'm all ears! Tell!


Denim N Leather wrote:
Charender wrote:
Denim N Leather wrote:

Thanks! That's what I thought.

By the time you can use a Quickened spell, I think that there are more powerful options; ie, Phatasmal Killer; unless you're quickening a buff.

Interesting. Thanks again!

Don't forget that there are ways of lowering the cost of applying metamagic, so it isn't always 4 levels higher.

Oh, ree-hee-HEALY?

I'm all ears! Tell!

The first 2 that come to mind.

Not the best choice overall, but the universalist wizard gets an ability called metamagic mastery.

If you allow feats from the complete divine, look up divine metamagic. Clerics can use channel attempts to lower the cost of metamagic.


That sounds like a good trade off, actually. Will look into it. Thanks!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Divine Metamagic is somewhat overpowered and is often banned with many DMs. Consult your Dungeon Master before going with non-core material, as always :)


Gorbacz wrote:
Divine Metamagic is somewhat overpowered and is often banned with many DMs. Consult your Dungeon Master before going with non-core material, as always :)

And there is no "Turn Undead" per se any more.


Gorbacz wrote:
Divine Metamagic is somewhat overpowered and is often banned with many DMs. Consult your Dungeon Master before going with non-core material, as always :)

I am the DM, so no worries on that end.

And overpowered compared to Pathfinder? I find that hard to believe. :)

Unless something is TOTALLY broken, I let all my players use whatever alternate class features or feats they want (Example, we use Pathfinder's Quicken Spell, not Experimental Might's). I do the same for my NPCs. Makes for a lot of surprises all round.


Cartigan wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Divine Metamagic is somewhat overpowered and is often banned with many DMs. Consult your Dungeon Master before going with non-core material, as always :)
And there is no "Turn Undead" per se any more.

Easily changed to a use of Channel Energy.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Divine Metamagic + Nightsicks + Persistent Magic. It makes you cry when you realize what madness that combo is :)


Other ways to reduce metamagic level-mod cost (3.5 material):

Arcane thesis (complete something)
Easy metamagic (dragon magazine X)
Ultimate Magus class ability to "fuel" metamagic level cost via burning other spells (complete mage)

-Jelly


Gorbacz wrote:

Divine Metamagic is somewhat overpowered and is often banned with many DMs. Consult your Dungeon Master before going with non-core material, as always :)

Divine Metamagic + Nightsicks + Persistent Magic. It makes you cry when you realize what madness that combo is :)

Actually, in 3.5 divine metamagic was only a little OP, and that was only because turn undead was mostly useless after level 8 or so. In PF, channeling is so much better than I would have a hard time justifying the use of all my channels just to get 1 or 2 quickened spells.

The real problem in that combo is persistant metamagic. That feat alone is broken. I don't allow persistant metamagic in my games.

Without persistant metamagic, the only use for divine metamagic is the occasional quickened or extended spell. A level 7 cleric who burns 4 channel uses for a quickened spell is costing every injured member in the group 4 x 4d6 worth of healing. That is a very hard choice to make.

I have never used nightsticks, but given that the channel ability is much better in PF, I would think they need a cost increase at the very least.


Denim N Leather wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Divine Metamagic is somewhat overpowered and is often banned with many DMs. Consult your Dungeon Master before going with non-core material, as always :)
And there is no "Turn Undead" per se any more.
Easily changed to a use of Channel Energy.

That would be a proper conversion of 3.5 to PF since turn/rebuke undead got changed to channel energy.


Charender wrote:
A level 7 cleric who burns 4 channel uses for a quickened spell is costing every injured member in the group 4 x 4d6 worth of healing.

it takes 5 turn/channel attempts to quicken a spell... You must spend one plus an additional one for each level of increase.


cwslyclgh wrote:
Charender wrote:
A level 7 cleric who burns 4 channel uses for a quickened spell is costing every injured member in the group 4 x 4d6 worth of healing.
it takes 5 turn/channel attempts to quicken a spell... You must spend one plus an additional one for each level of increase.

Ok, even worse then I thought.


The Complete Divine errata also says that you must actually know the metamagic-feat that you choose divine metamagic for (ie in order to take Divine Metamagic [quicken] you have to already have taken Quicken Spell), and that it only functions for divine spells.

really if you remove the Persistent Spell feat from the game (which is very a good idea IMO) Divine Metamagic isn't broken at all.


cwslyclgh wrote:

The Complete Divine errata also says that you must actually know the metamagic-feat that you choose divine metamagic for (ie in order to take Divine Metamagic [quicken] you have to already have taken Quicken Spell), and that it only functions for divine spells.

really if you remove the Persistent Spell feat from the game (which is very a good idea IMO) Divine Metamagic isn't broken at all.

So you are saying that Divine Metamagic (Quicken) is a different feat from Divine Metamagic (Extend)?

Splat book rules I could grab 2 or 3 metamagic feats, then grab divine metamagic, and use it with all of them. I never kept up with any the details of the complete divine changes or the errata.


Charender wrote:
cwslyclgh wrote:

The Complete Divine errata also says that you must actually know the metamagic-feat that you choose divine metamagic for (ie in order to take Divine Metamagic [quicken] you have to already have taken Quicken Spell), and that it only functions for divine spells.

really if you remove the Persistent Spell feat from the game (which is very a good idea IMO) Divine Metamagic isn't broken at all.

So you are saying that Divine Metamagic (Quicken) is a different feat from Divine Metamagic (Extend)?

Splat book rules I could grab 2 or 3 metamagic feats, then grab divine metamagic, and use it with all of them. I never kept up with any the details of the complete divine changes or the errata.

You can't actually, this is what Complete Divine says:

CD pg 80 wrote:


Benefit: when you take this feat, choose a mateamagic feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat....

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to which to apply it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

IMHO it does take a couple feats and a special ability to lessen the sting of the spell level increases when applying metamagic to spells to make them worthwhile.

Sure a quickened Magic Missle or Scorching Ray is real cute at 11th level next to your Chain Lightning or Circle of Death but just isn't going to add a whole lot of impact to the fight that another one of your 6th level spells won't be able to add massively to in the following round. I'll wait behind my 11th level fighter and cleric until the next round and then unleash another Chain Lighting into the mobs thanks.

I'd rather not pay *twice* to be able to use metamagic. Once for the feat and again for the spell level increase.

3.5e Unearthed Arcana's Spontaneous Metamagic option ftw. Because friends don't let friends game with core metamagic rules. :P

Sovereign Court

QTSD - Quicken True Strike, Disintegration

Very popular subject for quickening that spell, True Strike.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Denim N Leather wrote:
Quicken Spell (Metamagic) wrote:
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Am I reading the rules correctly, that a 1st level quickened spell takes a 5th level spell slot? If so, what's the advantage of having a low level spell quickened at the cost of a much more powerful spell?

Thanks!

I am curently playtesting a change for my metamagic feats that lets a player use the feat a number of times a day with no increase to the spell slot. Quicken has 1 use per day, Max and widen 2 uses per day and the rest 3 per day. Only Still and Silent can be used in the same round with each other. Of course highten still works the same. I would love to give feed back on how it has worked but the wizard in our group has yet to grab a metamagic feat and they just leveled to 5th at the end of the last game session.


Dragorine wrote:
Denim N Leather wrote:
Quicken Spell (Metamagic) wrote:
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Am I reading the rules correctly, that a 1st level quickened spell takes a 5th level spell slot? If so, what's the advantage of having a low level spell quickened at the cost of a much more powerful spell?

Thanks!

I am curently playtesting a change for my metamagic feats that lets a player use the feat a number of times a day with no increase to the spell slot. Quicken has 1 use per day, Max and widen 2 uses per day and the rest 3 per day. Only Still and Silent can be used in the same round with each other. Of course highten still works the same. I would love to give feed back on how it has worked but the wizard in our group has yet to grab a metamagic feat and they just leveled to 5th at the end of the last game session.

A lot of this will depend on how high of a level the group goes to, and what other books are allowed. It can be easy to 1 or 2 round bosse if the caster gets to go 2 or more times in one round.

Shadow Lodge

Playing a 16th level game right now and I use quicken a lot. Quickened shield in an emergency, quickened true strike. Touch attack then quickened dimension door.

+4 levels is about right but I get a lot of mileage out of my metamagic rod also. Personally I think quicken works a little better if you can apply it on the fly with sorcerer or with the rods.


0gre wrote:

Playing a 16th level game right now and I use quicken a lot. Quickened shield in an emergency, quickened true strike. Touch attack then quickened dimension door.

+4 levels is about right but I get a lot of mileage out of my metamagic rod also. Personally I think quicken works a little better if you can apply it on the fly with sorcerer or with the rods.

Agreed. Some of the first things I buy playing a wizard is metamagic extend, metamagic quicken, and a headband of vast intellect.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
A lot of this will depend on how high of a level the group goes to, and what other books are allowed. It can be easy to 1 or 2 round bosse if the caster gets to go 2 or more times in one round.

With a metamagic rod you can already do this anyway. I am trying to find a way for metamagic to actualy work with wizards where you don't actualy have to memorize the spell with the metamagic component.


Liquidsabre wrote:

Sure a quickened Magic Missle or Scorching Ray is real cute at 11th level next to your Chain Lightning or Circle of Death but just isn't going to add a whole lot of impact to the fight that another one of your 6th level spells won't be able to add massively to in the following round. I'll wait behind my 11th level fighter and cleric until the next round and then unleash another Chain Lighting into the mobs thanks.

I'd rather not pay *twice* to be able to use metamagic. Once for the feat and again for the spell level increase.

You don't use it with magic missile or even scorching ray. You use it with grease, shield, true strike and the like. If you're up against a single target (especially a spellcaster!), quickened true strike + enervation can be a direct win (unless he's evened-level and you roll a 1, he'll lose at least one, and possibly two, spell levels, unless he has restoration - and even then, he'll waste a whole turn which is good action economy). Against several foes, quickened grease + black tentacles is reaally nice! They'll probably make their grease save, but will be slowed so the tentacles gains more chances to grapple them, and flat-footed so they can't add their dex to CMD!

Shadow Lodge

Dragorine wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
A lot of this will depend on how high of a level the group goes to, and what other books are allowed. It can be easy to 1 or 2 round bosse if the caster gets to go 2 or more times in one round.
With a metamagic rod you can already do this anyway. I am trying to find a way for metamagic to actualy work with wizards where you don't actualy have to memorize the spell with the metamagic component.

My feeling on this is that wizards have plenty of cool options already, sorcerers getting to apply metamagic on the fly is one of the few cool things they have that wizards lack. You could also buckle down and be a generalist, they have that nice metamagic bonus levels you can apply on the fly. I know everyone says generalists are weak... but then there are a ton of posts like this where people think it would be nice to apply metamagic on the fly. Hmm.


cwslyclgh wrote:
Charender wrote:
cwslyclgh wrote:

The Complete Divine errata also says that you must actually know the metamagic-feat that you choose divine metamagic for (ie in order to take Divine Metamagic [quicken] you have to already have taken Quicken Spell), and that it only functions for divine spells.

really if you remove the Persistent Spell feat from the game (which is very a good idea IMO) Divine Metamagic isn't broken at all.

So you are saying that Divine Metamagic (Quicken) is a different feat from Divine Metamagic (Extend)?

Splat book rules I could grab 2 or 3 metamagic feats, then grab divine metamagic, and use it with all of them. I never kept up with any the details of the complete divine changes or the errata.

You can't actually, this is what Complete Divine says:

CD pg 80 wrote:


Benefit: when you take this feat, choose a mateamagic feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat....

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to which to apply it.

Yeah, I was looking through my books last night, and Complete Divine has it that way. I seem to remember that the feat came out is some other source book before CD came out and it worked the way I described, but I couldn't find it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
stringburka wrote:
You use it with grease, shield, true strike and the like.

Yes all fun usages there, won't argue that Quickened Spell isn't a useful metamagic feat. Just isn't cost-worthy for the expenditure of both a feat and spell levels.


correction: not cost-worthy at low levels.

Of course, if you're, say, a blaster, getting that extra 12 dice of damage in may very well be worth it - especially for an evoker, who deals 1/2CL there, too. When you have 8th level spells, 5th level slots aren't that valuable....

But, you do need a good reason to spend your highest level slot for a quickened spell.

Some good picks:
- True Strike, for when you absolutely must hit with a ray.
- Dimension Door for quick getaway
- Mirror Image for Not Getting Hit.
- Vampiric Touch to get hit points back right now
- Wall spells when you don't want to see the enemy anymore.


Charender wrote:


Yeah, I was looking through my books last night, and Complete Divine has it that way. I seem to remember that the feat came out is some other source book before CD came out and it worked the way I described, but I couldn't find it.

The 3.0 splat book Defenders of the Faith maybe? I don't remember it being there, off the top of my head, but my DoF is a box in storage so I can't readily check it.


Don't forget, you can also use Quickened whatever + full round attack. Quickened spells are often all that clerics or ftr/wiz's ever cast in combat.


Senevri wrote:


- Wall spells when you don't want to see the enemy anymore.

This made me laugh.

"You're ugly! Talk to the wall!" Wizard makes the "L for loser" sign on his forehead ...


cwslyclgh wrote:
Charender wrote:


Yeah, I was looking through my books last night, and Complete Divine has it that way. I seem to remember that the feat came out is some other source book before CD came out and it worked the way I described, but I couldn't find it.

The 3.0 splat book Defenders of the Faith maybe? I don't remember it being there, off the top of my head, but my DoF is a box in storage so I can't readily check it.

I checked DoF last night, it isn't in there. I am thinking it may have been in the Magic of Faerun, and a friend of mine is borrowing that.


Senevri wrote:

correction: not cost-worthy at low levels.

Of course, if you're, say, a blaster, getting that extra 12 dice of damage in may very well be worth it - especially for an evoker, who deals 1/2CL there, too. When you have 8th level spells, 5th level slots aren't that valuable....

But, you do need a good reason to spend your highest level slot for a quickened spell.

Some good picks:
- True Strike, for when you absolutely must hit with a ray.
- Dimension Door for quick getaway
- Mirror Image for Not Getting Hit.
- Vampiric Touch to get hit points back right now
- Wall spells when you don't want to see the enemy anymore.

To add to this. Remember that quickened spells do not provoke AoOs. that makes them even better for defensive or getaway spells like Dimension Door and mirror image.

We have him surrounded if he casts he is screwed. Quickened mirror image or invisiblity or dimension door allows you to avoid a lot of nasty AoOs.


Charender wrote:
cwslyclgh wrote:
Charender wrote:


Yeah, I was looking through my books last night, and Complete Divine has it that way. I seem to remember that the feat came out is some other source book before CD came out and it worked the way I described, but I couldn't find it.

The 3.0 splat book Defenders of the Faith maybe? I don't remember it being there, off the top of my head, but my DoF is a box in storage so I can't readily check it.
I checked DoF last night, it isn't in there. I am thinking it may have been in the Magic of Faerun, and a friend of mine is borrowing that.

Just checked MoF, it isn't there either.


cwslyclgh wrote:
Charender wrote:
cwslyclgh wrote:
Charender wrote:


Yeah, I was looking through my books last night, and Complete Divine has it that way. I seem to remember that the feat came out is some other source book before CD came out and it worked the way I described, but I couldn't find it.

The 3.0 splat book Defenders of the Faith maybe? I don't remember it being there, off the top of my head, but my DoF is a box in storage so I can't readily check it.
I checked DoF last night, it isn't in there. I am thinking it may have been in the Magic of Faerun, and a friend of mine is borrowing that.
Just checked MoF, it isn't there either.

I know I was using the feat before Complete Divine came out, but not sure how or why?


Just a thought. Power Components. I remember there being some splatbook, possibly third party, that had a list of optional material components for spells which could do anything from add a metamagic feat to increase its effective CL or DC. Maybe a somewhat expensive material component that you can use when casting a spell to make it quickened. You'd still have to memorize it as quickened, but not 4 levels higher, and it would cost a few gold.


meatrace wrote:
Just a thought. Power Components. I remember there being some splatbook, possibly third party,

Yes, WotC book called "3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide", page 36.

Quote:
that had a list of optional material components for spells which could do anything from add a metamagic feat to increase its effective CL or DC. Maybe a somewhat expensive material component that you can use when casting a spell to make it quickened. You'd still have to memorize it as quickened, but not 4 levels higher, and it would cost a few gold.

I've been meaning to use these...

Shadow Lodge

Obscuring mist is another nice quickened spell. You can cast a spell at an enemy then disappear in a cloud. Alternately you can make the cloud then teleport dimension door somewhere else. Particularly useful against archers. Quickened glitterdust followed by an attack spell is also quite decent.

For a 15th level caster these things are well worth the 5th/ 6th level spell slot. For an 11th level caster not so much.


0gre wrote:
For a 15th level caster these things are well worth the 5th/ 6th level spell slot. For an 11th level caster not so much.

Yeah, I very rarely apply Quicken to a spell if it's only 4 levels below my maximum slot. Usually you have too few spells of your maximum level and you need the oomph of those spells against your opponents too much. Quicken is most useful once you get to 8th and 9th level spells, because you'll have plenty of 5th-7th level slots to Quicken lower level utility and attack spells into.

Also, as a response to something further up-thread, scorching ray is actually an excellent Quicken target, just not when you've only got 6th level spells to start with. 12d6 damage as a swift action is nothing to sneeze at, even as a 6th level spell.

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