Flurry of blows and haste


Rules Questions


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If a monk uses flurry of blows and has had the haste spell cast on him does he get an additional attack at his highest bab while he is flurring?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yes. Flurry acts essentially as two-weapon fighting, Haste will stack. What could use a bit of clarification is whether Haste stacks with using a Ki Point for an extra attack. I'm somewhat inclined to allow it.


@Haste (CRB p.294):"This effect is not cumulative with
similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon".

I'd say that getting an extra attack (from any source) is a 'similar effect'.


Tanis wrote:

@Haste (CRB p.294):"This effect is not cumulative with

similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon".

I'd say that getting an extra attack (from any source) is a 'similar effect'.

The extra attack from haste is similar to that of a speed weapon. Magic or extraordinary speed effects can be aquired by a number of sources.

The monks extra attacks from flurry are comparable to using two-weapon fighting. Two weapon fighting, rapid shot and flurry of blows, while granting extra attacks are not effects similar to haste.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Grandfather wrote:
The monks extra attacks from flurry are comparable to using two-weapon fighting. Two weapon fighting, rapid shot and flurry of blows, while granting extra attacks are not effects similar to haste.

But one could argue, as he seems to be doing, that spending a ki point for an extra attack IS a similar effect.


Sorry, i should have clarified, that's exactly what i meant. There's no argument that the flurry should stack with haste. It was the extra attack that i was talking about.

Dark Archive

You could put it another way round.

Ki is not supposed to be a faster attack. It's supposed to be an attack much more powerful (well if you link it to real world martial arts that is but of course this is fantasy one could say and have no links to real world whatsoever ... well still let's link it to the real world after all).

I would rule it as attacks hard to block i.e. an additional attack.

By RAW:
As already mentionned in PHB and probably in Pathfinder, the number of attacks you have is not the number of times you attacked.
You most probably attacked parried and counter attacked more than once (or more) in a round. Within these attacks one (if BAB is low) attack only may hit.
Use of a Ki could mean an additionnal attack which could potentially hit, I would interpret it as something hard to parry due to power.

So Haste could stack with Ki.

My humble opinion
Now as a rule of thumb Ki can not be used very often and Monk really needs some sort of boost.

So if Monks wants to stack it ... why not ?

EDIT : On top of that I would say they look similar but are not. The same way that different boosts to AC(luck, morale, magic ..) look similar but are not and may stack.

That's how I'd rule it anyway.

I don't pretend I'm absolutely right... no .... But still :o)


Because it provides a bonus to the number of attacks a round with no penalty (besides spending ki pts.)

Just like a speed weapon.

Just like haste - which explicitly says it doesn't stack with similar effects.


Ravingdork wrote:
The Grandfather wrote:
The monks extra attacks from flurry are comparable to using two-weapon fighting. Two weapon fighting, rapid shot and flurry of blows, while granting extra attacks are not effects similar to haste.
But one could argue, as he seems to be doing, that spending a ki point for an extra attack IS a similar effect.

The extra attack from ki power is a whole other ball park.

I agree that haste and extra attacks from ki would not stack.


Why are we trying to _take_ things from the monk again?

I didn't know the monk needed to be nerfed down.


Ice Titan wrote:

Why are we trying to _take_ things from the monk again?

I didn't know the monk needed to be nerfed down.

I do not think anyone thinks the monk needs to be nerfed.

Relating to the haste spell which effects do YOU think are similar and therefore do not stack?


Many effects such as Haste are problematic because they put a blanket condition on it with no regard to what is being done elsewhere. "not stackable with similar things" isn't precise enough: some interpret any supplementary attack as a similar thing (TWF, etc) and others don't.

I'd house-rule that things like size changes, as well as increases/decreases in the number of attacks, is ruled like bonuses are: with a type (magical if a spell or SLA, supernatural if Su, exceptional if Ex or feats - might need refining here). Under this rule, there would be no question about which effect stacks with which because the general rule of (non-)stacking (bonuses of the same type) would apply.

Just my two cents...

And, for the record, I'm for allowing the monk the Ki burn on top of Haste. That burning of valuable resources has to provide an advantage or it's just useless.


Louis IX wrote:
And, for the record, I'm for allowing the monk the Ki burn on top of Haste. That burning of valuable resources has to provide an advantage or it's just useless.

I actually agree with that, but mostly because I do not think it is intentional to penalize monks with regard to Haste.


The Grandfather wrote:
Ice Titan wrote:

Why are we trying to _take_ things from the monk again?

I didn't know the monk needed to be nerfed down.

I do not think anyone thinks the monk needs to be nerfed.

Relating to the haste spell which effects do YOU think are similar and therefore do not stack?

Magical ones. Speed on a weapon, Haste, Divine Power.

A ki point is an untyped extra attack.

Certain other bonuses stack because it makes sense. A wizard 12 casts haste on himself and then casts transformation. His BAB went from 6 to 12 and now he has an extra attack at minimum BAB in addition to his hasted full-bonus attack.

At least, that's my opinion.


Ice Titan wrote:
The Grandfather wrote:
Ice Titan wrote:

Why are we trying to _take_ things from the monk again?

I didn't know the monk needed to be nerfed down.

I do not think anyone thinks the monk needs to be nerfed.

Relating to the haste spell which effects do YOU think are similar and therefore do not stack?

Magical ones. Speed on a weapon, Haste, Divine Power.

A ki point is an untyped extra attack.

Certain other bonuses stack because it makes sense. A wizard 12 casts haste on himself and then casts transformation. His BAB went from 6 to 12 and now he has an extra attack at minimum BAB in addition to his hasted full-bonus attack.

At least, that's my opinion.

Ki Power is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities are magical in nature because they do not work in an antimagic field. Thus, the extra attack from ki strike is magical in origin.


Charender wrote:


Ki Power is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities are magical in nature because they do not work in an antimagic field. Thus, the extra attack from ki strike is magical in origin.

Except that a Ki strike would work in an anti-magic field. So there for would not magical in nature.

I think it should work just fine. It's not really any different than say cleave with haste. It's not like you can't cleave while hasted. Cleave does give you an additional attack at you highest BAB though on different adjacent opponent if you hit with you first attack. What about two weapon fighting, it give you additional attack at your highest BAB two. So haste technically wouldn't work for two weapon fighters either by the logic means it won't work with the Ki strike.

Dark Archive

voska66 wrote:
Charender wrote:


Ki Power is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities are magical in nature because they do not work in an antimagic field. Thus, the extra attack from ki strike is magical in origin.

Except that a Ki strike would work in an anti-magic field. So there for would not magical in nature.

I think it should work just fine. It's not really any different than say cleave with haste. It's not like you can't cleave while hasted. Cleave does give you an additional attack at you highest BAB though on different adjacent opponent if you hit with you first attack. What about two weapon fighting, it give you additional attack at your highest BAB two. So haste technically wouldn't work for two weapon fighters either by the logic means it won't work with the Ki strike.

Except that Ki Pool is a Supernatural ability

from the PRD

Spoiler:

Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.

The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

and from the spell description of Antimagic Field:

Quote:
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

so, the Monk's Ki abilities would not work in an Antimagic field.

Now having said that, I would allow the extra strike from haste and the extra strike from ki to stack. Assuming that the target is hindered in some way, I would even allow th4e extra strike from Medusa's Wrath to stack in there also.


Happler wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Charender wrote:


Ki Power is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities are magical in nature because they do not work in an antimagic field. Thus, the extra attack from ki strike is magical in origin.

Except that a Ki strike would work in an anti-magic field. So there for would not magical in nature.

I think it should work just fine. It's not really any different than say cleave with haste. It's not like you can't cleave while hasted. Cleave does give you an additional attack at you highest BAB though on different adjacent opponent if you hit with you first attack. What about two weapon fighting, it give you additional attack at your highest BAB two. So haste technically wouldn't work for two weapon fighters either by the logic means it won't work with the Ki strike.

Except that Ki Pool is a Supernatural ability

from the PRD
** spoiler omitted **...

That's what that means then. Honestly I had no idea and didn't much pay attention to it. (SU) is supernatural, I'll keep that in mind. What does the (EX) stand for?

Dark Archive

voska66 wrote:
Happler wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Charender wrote:


Ki Power is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities are magical in nature because they do not work in an antimagic field. Thus, the extra attack from ki strike is magical in origin.

Except that a Ki strike would work in an anti-magic field. So there for would not magical in nature.

I think it should work just fine. It's not really any different than say cleave with haste. It's not like you can't cleave while hasted. Cleave does give you an additional attack at you highest BAB though on different adjacent opponent if you hit with you first attack. What about two weapon fighting, it give you additional attack at your highest BAB two. So haste technically wouldn't work for two weapon fighters either by the logic means it won't work with the Ki strike.

Except that Ki Pool is a Supernatural ability

from the PRD
** spoiler omitted **...

That's what that means then. Honestly I had no idea and didn't much pay attention to it. (SU) is supernatural, I'll keep that in mind. What does the (EX) stand for?

they are all at the top of this page:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html

Quote:


Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal.

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.


voska66 wrote:
I think it should work just fine. It's not really any different than say cleave with haste. It's not like you can't cleave while hasted. Cleave does give you an additional attack at you highest BAB though on different adjacent opponent if you hit with you first attack. What about two weapon fighting, it give you additional attack at your highest BAB two. So haste technically wouldn't work for two weapon fighters either by the logic means it won't work with the Ki strike.

1) You can't use cleave with haste. To get an extra attack with haste you need to spend a full attack action, cleave is a standard.

2) If we were saying that TWF didn't work we'd say that flurry of blows didn't stack, no-one's said that, it was said that the extra ki attack (which has nothing to do with TWF) doesn't stack.

How is the extra attack from your ki pool (which stacks already with TWF & flurry) not similar to having a speed weapon or the extra attack from haste? You'd have to say it's very similar, no?


Tanis wrote:


How is the extra attack from your ki pool (which stacks already with TWF & flurry) not similar to having a speed weapon or the extra attack from haste? You'd have to say it's very similar, no?

There is some degree of similarity, but ki extra attacks is not like haste in that:

1 - it does not increase your movement speed
2 - does not provide a numerical bonus to either AC, attack rolls or saving throws

That is why I would probably not deem them similar enough not to stack (and the fact that it is discriminating towards monks).


The Grandfather wrote:
Tanis wrote:


How is the extra attack from your ki pool (which stacks already with TWF & flurry) not similar to having a speed weapon or the extra attack from haste? You'd have to say it's very similar, no?

There is some degree of similarity, but ki extra attacks is not like haste in that:

1 - it does not increase your movement speed
2 - does not provide a numerical bonus to either AC, attack rolls or saving throws

That is why I would probably not deem them similar enough not to stack (and the fact that it is discriminating towards monks).

1) neither do 'speed' weapons.

2) ditto.


Tanis wrote:


1) neither do 'speed' weapons.
2) ditto.

True but the exception mentioned is particular to the haste spell.

I think the inclusion of speed weapons might come from it being created with a haste spell (during item creation).

But as you might have noticed I started out agreeing with you and first later changed stance.

An official voice on this would be good to hear because I do not think the answer is clear cut one way or another.


The Grandfather wrote:
An official voice on this would be good to hear because I do not think the answer is clear cut one way or another.

Isn't it always the way? lol


I request (official) clarification on this as well.

I love monks, so I'm firmly in the "stacking" camp - but I can see the argument going either way.

Somewhat disrelated:

PS - I think the biggest problem for a monk is the difficulty in overcoming DR - since many iterative attacks that deal little damage have little effect on a high-DR monster. Steel-Shattering Strike, from the Campaign Setting, would resolve this, if implemented in a sensible way. I'm hopeful for the Campaign Setting remake.


I am currently running an 11th-level Pathfinder game for my university's roleplaying society and one of the characters is a half-orc monk. The group also has a tiefling abyssal sorcerer who is very fond of casting Haste at the start of combat. I have ruled that the monk can spend a ki point to gain an extra attack while under the effect of the Haste spell. So far it has not caused any problems in-game. Ki points are a rather limited resource and he also uses them for other things (and always keeps one in reserve so that his fists count as magic and lawful). At most he maybe has 3 or 4 rounds a day where he actually gets to use flurry of blows plus Haste plus the extra attack from spending a ki point. From our experience it is not unbalancing or overpowered. It works really well in allowing the monk to deal with minions and henchmen. The party also has a halfing rogue with a +1 speed rapier (she does not get to stack Haste with the Speed effect), but so far no one has complained about the monk getting to make the extra attack.


Ki Pool specifically says it's a magical, supernatural, ability. Therefore, the extra attack from Ki Pool use is analagous to a Haste extra attack, and should not stack. On the other hand, the monk can use the Haste effect at will by expending ki, so that's really a good thing for the monk. Either he can do it without the spell, or he can hoard his ki if the spell is cast on him. That's kind of a win-win for the monk.

Now if he has a sai or quarterstaff of speed, then... well, he can use those ki points for other abilities.

One thing that bothers me is the argument I keep seeing about 'Well, it's not necessarily one attack per attack roll'. PF (rightly in my eyes) completely removed all that sort of commentary from the rules. It just made for weird arguments like the one above 'Well, I'm already attacking 5 times to get in one punch, if I just have to touch to do damage, why can't I touch 5 times and not worry about putting any power into the attacks?'.


It would still be a matter of reviewing the type of bonus. For example, if we think of the Haste as an "circumstance" bonus to number of attacks - then the ki-point might be adding a "insight" bonus to number of attacks.

As a whole, the Haste spell, ki-points, and other effects that do modifications like that would benefit from the familiar bonus-type and their stacking rules; I think Paizo would do well to implement the descriptions along that line.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd rather not have an official ruling in this case actually. I think this is a good place to have DM rulings, based on the game at hand.

Dark Archive

I just realised that Ki pool and abilities are SU and not EX... though I would rate them as EX... But well doesn't really matter. Still it makes me strange to think that in an antimagic field the Ki pool couldn't be used ....

Anyhow I would stack because as already said it's no big deal.

NEVERTHELESS, I would be more in favor of a Ki attack doing more damage than actually adding an extra attack. Would seem more like it.

Oh well, may be I'll house rule it sometimes.

May be just simply double the damage of the attack with KI.


Chewbacca wrote:

I just realised that Ki pool and abilities are SU and not EX... though I would rate them as EX... But well doesn't really matter. Still it makes me strange to think that in an antimagic field the Ki pool couldn't be used ....

Anyhow I would stack because as already said it's no big deal.

NEVERTHELESS, I would be more in favor of a Ki attack doing more damage than actually adding an extra attack. Would seem more like it.

Oh well, may be I'll house rule it sometimes.

May be just simply double the damage of the attack with KI.

Now this is a thought I like. I would put it more as the monk focusing his own chi around his fists. That explains it being SU instead of EX, and also might allow force effects to stop it cold (kind of like a magic missile). So, a Ki punch doubles the damage on the next successful attack, but a force effect stops it (mage armor, shield spell, etc).

I actually really like that.

Dark Archive

mdt wrote:
Chewbacca wrote:

I just realised that Ki pool and abilities are SU and not EX... though I would rate them as EX... But well doesn't really matter. Still it makes me strange to think that in an antimagic field the Ki pool couldn't be used ....

Anyhow I would stack because as already said it's no big deal.

NEVERTHELESS, I would be more in favor of a Ki attack doing more damage than actually adding an extra attack. Would seem more like it.

Oh well, may be I'll house rule it sometimes.

May be just simply double the damage of the attack with KI.

Now this is a thought I like. I would put it more as the monk focusing his own chi around his fists. That explains it being SU instead of EX, and also might allow force effects to stop it cold (kind of like a magic missile). So, a Ki punch doubles the damage on the next successful attack, but a force effect stops it (mage armor, shield spell, etc).

I actually really like that.

I would be careful with this, since you would be penalizing the monk twice for attacking someone with mage armor or shield. Once for the AC from mage armor or shield, once for neutralizing his Ki point. Since the monk has limited use of Ki points per day, I would be more tempted to make the extra damage count as force damage for the effect of bypassing some DR.

Or another option (and I would allow this with a feat) would be to convert the Ki point into minor elemental damage for that round. (just pulling numbers out of the air, +1 of X elemental damage per 4 levels of monk, element type selected when Ki point spent to a max of +5 at level 20).


Happler wrote:


I would be careful with this, since you would be penalizing the monk twice for attacking someone with mage armor or shield. Once for the AC from mage armor or shield, once for neutralizing his Ki point. Since the monk has limited use of Ki points per day, I would be more tempted to make the extra damage count as force damage for the effect of bypassing some DR.

Or another option (and I would allow this with a feat) would be to convert the Ki point into minor elemental damage for that round. (just pulling numbers out of the air, +1 of X elemental damage per 4 levels of monk, element type selected when Ki point spent to a max of +5 at level 20).

I don't agree. Yes, he's getting penalized for the mage armor or shield spell. However, you will note I said on his next successful attack, so if he misses this rounds attacks, his 'chi charge' stays in effect until he hits. So I think that's a valid tradeoff for having the energy stopped cold by force effects.

I see the chi energy as a type of lifeforce energy, similar to a ghost or phantom's life energy, which is stopped by force effects. I'd probably also allow ghost-touch armor to stop the chi punch. I think that's a perfectly viable trade off for the idea of charging your fists with life energy and then having it stay until it's discharged.

Dark Archive

mdt wrote:
Happler wrote:


I would be careful with this, since you would be penalizing the monk twice for attacking someone with mage armor or shield. Once for the AC from mage armor or shield, once for neutralizing his Ki point. Since the monk has limited use of Ki points per day, I would be more tempted to make the extra damage count as force damage for the effect of bypassing some DR.

Or another option (and I would allow this with a feat) would be to convert the Ki point into minor elemental damage for that round. (just pulling numbers out of the air, +1 of X elemental damage per 4 levels of monk, element type selected when Ki point spent to a max of +5 at level 20).

I don't agree. Yes, he's getting penalized for the mage armor or shield spell. However, you will note I said on his next successful attack, so if he misses this rounds attacks, his 'chi charge' stays in effect until he hits. So I think that's a valid tradeoff for having the energy stopped cold by force effects.

I see the chi energy as a type of lifeforce energy, similar to a ghost or phantom's life energy, which is stopped by force effects. I'd probably also allow ghost-touch armor to stop the chi punch. I think that's a perfectly viable trade off for the idea of charging your fists with life energy and then having it stay until it's discharged.

okay, I missed the "next successful hit" part, so that does make some sense now.

So back on the original:

Taking a look at what you can spend Ki points on:

Quote:


Point cost result
---------- ------
1 extra attack
1 +20 speed/1 round
1 +4 dodge bonus to AC / 1 round
1 +20 bonus on Acrobatics(jump) /1 round
2 heal own wounds = monk level
2 Dimension Door as a supernatural ability
3 etherealness as a supernatural ability

Most of these (at least everything under 2 point cost) appears to be speed related. Heck, for the cinematic feel, you could even say that d.door falls under that also. I can see how it could be ruled either way, but I would stand by my first take on it, which would be to allow it to stack.


Tanis wrote:
voska66 wrote:
I think it should work just fine. It's not really any different than say cleave with haste. It's not like you can't cleave while hasted. Cleave does give you an additional attack at you highest BAB though on different adjacent opponent if you hit with you first attack. What about two weapon fighting, it give you additional attack at your highest BAB two. So haste technically wouldn't work for two weapon fighters either by the logic means it won't work with the Ki strike.

1) You can't use cleave with haste. To get an extra attack with haste you need to spend a full attack action, cleave is a standard.

2) If we were saying that TWF didn't work we'd say that flurry of blows didn't stack, no-one's said that, it was said that the extra ki attack (which has nothing to do with TWF) doesn't stack.

How is the extra attack from your ki pool (which stacks already with TWF & flurry) not similar to having a speed weapon or the extra attack from haste? You'd have to say it's very similar, no?

Good point Cleave. I forgot we house ruled you could cleave on full attack. Well not when I'm the DM but another DM does. The way he looks at it is a full attack is a Standard action and move action. You basically perform any standard action then have the choice to move or continue into a full attack by spending you move action to make iterative attacks.

The point I was getting at is you have 1 attack and then other things allow a second, third or more attacks. Haste adds one extra attack and does stack with haste like ability such as weapon of speed. Any other source of extra attack stacks fine though. Again just my opinion.

But Don't agree that the hasted as similar to ki strike. It's about as similar as natural armor and defection is when determining you AC. That's my point of view though.

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