i'd like to petition for Aasimaars and Tieflings to get thier outsider martial weapon proficiencies back. it was one of thier few lures. who wishes to sign. paize claimed they were stronger with thier current abiliites, but they are actualy so much weaker, that they need thier proficiencies back. i vote that they should get. they rightfully deserve to have them. give them back thier lure. i'd also like to give them back thier eternal youth too.
Aasimaars and Tieflings are underpowered. all they have is thier racial attribute bonuses, +2 to 2 skills, darkvision, a situational spell like ability and resist 5 to 3 energy types. the core races are far more powerful. and have far more interesting abilities. i demand that paizo gives them back thier blanket list of martial weapon proficiencies. who is with me?
for anyone who agrees with this position.
post your approval in this thread.
the core races are nickle and dimed with not only more abilities than the 2 menioned races, but thier abilities are better than these 2 races.
why must Aasimaars and Tieflings become completely hosed by level 3?
Strange part of the forum to post this in.
Strange part of the forum to post this in.
I've moved it to a more appropraite location.
EDIT: Post got screwed up.
Anyway, I think they are balanced as is. Compare the elf to the tiefling, the tiefling loses a little enchantment resistance but gains elemental resistance, loses a little spell-casting bonus but gains a free, great spell. Loses a little social skills, gets a little tougher. Gets darkvision.
Compare human to aasimar. Aasimar gets +2 ability score, resistances, darkvision, situational spell. Loses a feat and skill points. I think the aasimar is far superior to the human in most cases.
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Odd....The tieflings, when given as player options, do not have martial weapon proficiency. I use the example of the 3rd ed forgotten realms, they have the +2 dex and Int and -2 cha, Cold/elec/fire resist 5, dark vision, darkness 1/day, and +2 bluff/hide. Giving someone an entire weapon list just for being a member of the race does not make sense.
Where was it taken away that it needs to be given back?
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Odd....The tieflings, when given as player options, do not have martial weapon proficiency. I use the example of the 3rd ed forgotten realms, they have the +2 dex and Int and -2 cha, Cold/elec/fire resist 5, dark vision, darkness 1/day, and +2 bluff/hide. Giving someone an entire weapon list just for being a member of the race does not make sense.
Where was it taken away that it needs to be given back?
I think before PF they were considered outsiders and all outsiders had simple and martial weapon proficiencies.
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But that would be a monster outsider that would be entirely different that a player character version. I believe that the generic martial weapon group being given so they can be easily populated with equipment and show the diversity.
Can't have all outsiders without class levels running around with daggers and crossbows
I think before PF they were considered outsiders and all outsiders had simple and martial weapon proficiencies.Odd....The tieflings, when given as player options, do not have martial weapon proficiency. I use the example of the 3rd ed forgotten realms, they have the +2 dex and Int and -2 cha, Cold/elec/fire resist 5, dark vision, darkness 1/day, and +2 bluff/hide. Giving someone an entire weapon list just for being a member of the race does not make sense.
Where was it taken away that it needs to be given back?
I still don't see the line that says they don't get it, but I doubt they live forever like normal outsiders also. They should get a line that says unlike normal outsiders teifling/aasimiars don't get X, Y, and Z.
I disagree. I think tiefling/aasimar work just fine as-is. I definitely don't think they somehow need to be able to use all martial weapons as some manner of racial ability.
Although I'd allow planetouched PCs as written, a lot of people here seem to think they're overpowered, based on some threads I've seen. So this stance that they're too weak seems quite unwarranted.
The idea that they have martial weapon proficiency comes from the fact that they are Outsiders, and its a trait of outsiders. The native subtype does not mention that they do not receive the normal weapon proficiencies of outsiders. In theory, this is were this ability came from to begin with.
In the 3.0/3.5 days, it was never spelled out that Tieflings or Aasimar did have these abilities, and many people assumed that as a "PC" race (at least as presented in the FR campaign setting) without racial hit dice, they would not.
However, when asked, Rich Baker said that, technically, yes, they would get the traits of Outsiders unless modified by the native subtype. I believe this was later mentioned in either the FAQ or errata and confirmed what Rich Baker had said about this.
All of that having been said, it feels more like a technicality than how things should actually work. Since Aasimar and Tiefling grow up, most of the time, raised by normal humans, I tend to go with the idea that they wouldn't know anything "naturally" more than a human child would.
I disagree. I think tiefling/aasimar work just fine as-is. I definitely don't think they somehow need to be able to use all martial weapons as some manner of racial ability.
Although I'd allow planetouched PCs as written, a lot of people here seem to think they're overpowered, based on some threads I've seen. So this stance that they're too weak seems quite unwarranted.
I definitely concur. I'm playing a tiefling monk right now, and at level four he is easily the most powerful member of the party. Darkness once per day really comes in handy when trying to make a quick escape, and the elemental resistance accentuates his frontlines value. Although, playing a monk I have little to no need for martial weapon proficiency. Maybe it would have been different had I chosen another class
Since Aasimar and Tiefling grow up, most of the time, raised by normal humans, I tend to go with the idea that they wouldn't know anything "naturally" more than a human child would.
Not to split hairs, but... They speak either Abyssal or Infernal. So either they "naturally" speak these, or they are not raised by "normal" humans.
I'm new to the game, and I just enjoy reading all these informed opinions. It amuses me how wildly they differ! To offer my two coppers, I don't really agree that the two races should have the proficiencies though. I don't think they are weak at all. I also don't think they are overly powerful, except perhaps at low level play.
It's not a big loss for me. Doing anything to negate the need for a +1 level adjustment makes the paperwork a pain imho. In CoT, I relish the idea of powering the race down so there's less headache when advancing in levels. I enjoy them more as an interesting story idea decision anyway, so I am biased. I think it's cool enough to envision a character with infernal smoke always pouring out of their eyes to unsettle people than the other bells and whistles.
There's no LA in PF, and if there was, there isn't a +1 lvl adjustment in PF. It says in the CRB that Aasimars and Tieflings are equivalent to normal races.
And where does it say that they don't get (non-racial HD dependant) outsider traits (like martial weapon prof.)?
That being said, Aasimar should have -2 to one ability. definitely.
I'd like to sign AGAINST them having Martial Weapon Proficiency. They don;t need it and it just pushes the race closer to POWER CREEP.