Is it acceptable for a new DM just to ad-lib a campaign?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Freddy Honeycutt wrote:

Set up a few games that are for the learning curve. We always let new DMs take us through a few low level disposable games till they got the hang of it.

It really cuts down on people with perfectionistic tendinecies putting stress on themselves....

Also you might discover you don't enjoy or want to DM...

If I want to play Pathfinder, I practically have to DM. I'm the only one with rulebooks or any experience with fantasy. I got my first rulebooks from a family friend, but he barely remembers 1E.


Yucale wrote:
Freddy Honeycutt wrote:

Set up a few games that are for the learning curve. We always let new DMs take us through a few low level disposable games till they got the hang of it.

It really cuts down on people with perfectionistic tendinecies putting stress on themselves....

Also you might discover you don't enjoy or want to DM...

If I want to play Pathfinder, I practically have to DM. I'm the only one with rulebooks or any experience with fantasy. I got my first rulebooks from a family friend, but he barely remembers 1E.

I think he will like Pathfinder.

Damn it Jim! I'm a doctor not a DM!


I ad-libbed nearly an entire official "Friday Night Open D&D" campaign for my friendly local game store. Lasted exactly one year, and everyone wanted me to keep going, but I didn't want to continue with 4E (the campaign started 3.5 then switched to 4E midway through when it was released at the request of the store owner).

I never planned more than a single session ahead of time, and never more than maybe 1 page of notes. Most sessions were only vaguely outlined in my head. Only the really critical sessions (like the final two sessions, where the party had to fight an Uktena that I basically ran as a terrain encounter rather than a creature encounter, then had to defend a group of NPC mages while they completed a ritual who were attacked by wave after wave of githyanki attacking through a gate) got planned ahead of time at all.

The key is to rolling with whatever seems to interest the PCs at the time and actually NOT planning too much. The more you plan, the harder it is to keep a free-form campaign going. Try to always say "yes" or "yes, but" any time a player asks "can I do X".


Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:
Krome wrote:
Essentially ALL GMs ad lib anyway. Those pesky PCs NEVER stick to the script!
+1

I've found if you DONT adlib you arent doing your job as the dm, as it ends up feeling like a videogame where one road suddenly stops and you cant walk any further because the dm didnt write anything up for that area.

I adlib most of my games. In fact half the time the players give me ideas in game that i change the story for. Players capture a guy instead of killing him, well he's important now, lets make him a plot hook. I usually just have a general direction i want things to go. And for sure i dont have a whole area mapped out ahead of time. I hate that nonsense. If players go right instead of left and i created an encounter for left, guess what, dimension warm, left room is right, right room is left. Its your world it can be as fluid as you want it to be.

And, in the end no matter how many contingencies you think of, there will be one player in your group that thinks of something else, and they wont do what you expected.


don't force it

Liberty's Edge

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Answer: Yes.

The answer to "How consistent must I be?" is always "Enough to satisfy the players."

If you never run a non-ad-libbed game in your entire career as GM, that is fine so long as the players (and you) are having fun.

I myself am obsessed with consistency, to the point where it can actually interfere with the game. But it makes me happy. If you're more able to roll with it, I'm sure that will help you and your players have fun.

I'm the same way, and I was determined to get in on the next big campaign setting after trying Forgotten Realms. I wanted to be in on the ground floor so I can keep up with the metaplot as it came out. I missed out on Eberron, but it seems that was providence as I love Golarion so much more (And PFRPG over 4E waaaay more)


My favorite thing about some DMs are you kill big uglies and when you return to the same room the corpses are missing....

I make it a point to have the corpses still be there or at least have an evil DM reason for why they are missing....


Yucale wrote:
Sorry to bother you gamers who actually know what you're doing

I've been playing these games for years and I have no idea what I'm doing!

Anyways, if you're having fun, you're doing it right.


ad libbing is the mark of a good GM.

You should never try to start the session with anything more than the most vague of ideas as to what is going to happen. Then, hand everything over to the PCs and learn to pull things out of your backside quickly, learn to think on your feet, and tell your players that plot doesn't matter - character does.
Remember, things don't have to make sense. Things do need to be interesting.


KenderKin wrote:

My favorite thing about some DMs are you kill big uglies and when you return to the same room the corpses are missing....

I make it a point to have the corpses still be there or at least have an evil DM reason for why they are missing....

very active dungeon rats

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You mean all my DMs didn't have the whole world mapped out down to the last pebble, with every possible story route planned out for me to choose from? I'm shocked, sir, absolutely shocked.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

LilithsThrall wrote:

ad libbing is the mark of a good GM.

You should never try to start the session with anything more than the most vague of ideas as to what is going to happen. Then, hand everything over to the PCs and learn to pull things out of your backside quickly, learn to think on your feet, and tell your players that plot doesn't matter - character does.
Remember, things don't have to make sense. Things do need to be interesting.

Depends on your group. I've run for groups who would stare blankly at me in confusion if I didn't propel them from room to room in a dungeon to kill things. And I've run for groups who skipped the dungeon entirely to go and meet their contacts in the city and propel my world in the direction their characters wanted it to go.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Christopher Dudley wrote:
Depends on your group. I've run for groups who would stare blankly at me in confusion if I didn't propel them from room to room in a dungeon to kill things. And I've run for groups who skipped the dungeon entirely to go and meet their contacts in the city and propel my world in the direction their characters wanted it to go.

I really wish I had been more experienced and able to mold my military buddies in the second direction. It was amazing when the bard player said 'I'm going to go talk to my thieves guild contact for information' and I had to make the character up on the spot.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
You mean all my DMs didn't have the whole world mapped out down to the last pebble, with every possible story route planned out for me to choose from? I'm shocked, sir, absolutely shocked.

as far as my players know I absolutely always do *shifty eyes*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Reminds me of Monte Cook's story about his Ptolus game where the party ran into a guard and asked his name, and Monte brushed it off. One of his players remarked 'Man, I thought EVERYONE in the city had a name.' That's a damn good game right there.


Guards are easy to remain un-named
Just give them titles

I am the first of the guard
I am the second of the guard

You can make the titles correspond to levels, or duties or when they are on duty (first shift, second) OR whatever.

Guards should have some aninimity since they often have families and maybe forced to.....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Are you and your players BOTH having a good time? If the answer is yes, then you've got the essentials covered. The finesse will come with time and practise.


What was that random dungeon generator for again???

And those random encounter tables?

You want to have fun with your players have them be in town and swarmed with nasty biting rats straight from the sewer (for no apparent reason). PCs love a good improv as much as anyone else....


Christopher Dudley wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:

ad libbing is the mark of a good GM.

You should never try to start the session with anything more than the most vague of ideas as to what is going to happen. Then, hand everything over to the PCs and learn to pull things out of your backside quickly, learn to think on your feet, and tell your players that plot doesn't matter - character does.
Remember, things don't have to make sense. Things do need to be interesting.

Depends on your group. I've run for groups who would stare blankly at me in confusion if I didn't propel them from room to room in a dungeon to kill things. And I've run for groups who skipped the dungeon entirely to go and meet their contacts in the city and propel my world in the direction their characters wanted it to go.

You raise a fair point, but the GM should never be propelling the players into the next room.

That shows a lack of engagement with the story on the part of the players. As soon as that happens, a good GM knows he/she made a mistake somewhere (no, losing engagement with the story isn't the player's fault, it's the GM's fault)*.
Getting the story back on track is easy. You just have to get the PCs in action again. Have a trap go off which sets the room on fire, have a secret door be found, have a deep rumbling growl be heard coming from *somewhere*, have someone charge into the room (a monster or a beautiful peasant girl, it doesn't matter - you can figure out why later), etc.

I think the only time I ever had a problem with this in the past ten years or so is when I was an assistant GM. As an assistant GM, I didn't have the right to throw curve balls. The head GM had a specific direction he wanted the game to go. Man, I'll never be an assistant GM again. It was boring for me and for my players.

*unless the player is doing something - like taking forever to resolve their action - which is messing with the pace of the story.


I have to laugh to myself because I have been ad-libbing games for the better part of the last 15 years. I too understand how sometimes you feel that you are doing your players a diservice but in fact getting a game together is more than enough for most.

I do sit down from time to time during a campaign and create important NPC characters and certain plot ideas but I never write out every single thing about an adventure path. I like my games to be filled with freedom for the players to do what they want, interacting with the story, not getting rail-roaded by it.

As far as not having anyone else to run and feeling inadequate for a lack of a better term, same thing happened to me 18 years ago and I just ran with it.

My suggestion run some adventure paths, Paizo has some good ones; Or just look at the modules. These can be great fun for the players and also help fledgling DM's get an idea of how to set up a campaign. Also watch movies and read books... rip off ideas, just change some aspects. I've been doing that for years and it makes for great plots. 99% of the time they have no idea and if they do generally they think its awesome.


As pretty much everyone has said, ad-libing is perfectly fine. I would like to add though, that some people have an easier time to improvise on the spot than others. If you find that improvising as you go feels difficult, start making some loose notes for what you want to accomplish in one session and then use those notes as a guideline when you play.

My very first adventure I DM'ed was totally improvised aside from the city the adventure took place in.

After a few session you'll find a Dm'ing style which works for you. Whether that includes a ton of preparation, some loose notes or nothing at all doesn't really matter as long as you're comfortable with it and people are having fun.


LilithsThrall wrote:


I think the only time I ever had a problem with this in the past ten years or so is when I was an assistant GM. As an assistant GM, I didn't have the right to throw curve balls. The head GM had a specific direction he wanted the game to go. Man, I'll never be an assistant GM again. It was boring for me and for my players.

An assistant GM? How does that even work? Is it like a phone conference gaming session, where he's not there so just talks you through it? I don't know how anyone would even come up with the idea of an assistant GM. Being a GM is hard enough without needing to be confused by having an out of game assistant.


LZ,

That sounds great Ok so basically you have a set (town, jungle, ship, etc)

You have the actors (PCs, NPCs)

And you have a few ideas.....(story lines AKA adventure hooks)

What else do we need to have a great game????


Beorn the Bear wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:


I think the only time I ever had a problem with this in the past ten years or so is when I was an assistant GM. As an assistant GM, I didn't have the right to throw curve balls. The head GM had a specific direction he wanted the game to go. Man, I'll never be an assistant GM again. It was boring for me and for my players.
An assistant GM? How does that even work? Is it like a phone conference gaming session, where he's not there so just talks you through it? I don't know how anyone would even come up with the idea of an assistant GM. Being a GM is hard enough without needing to be confused by having an out of game assistant.

We had a large group of players. During the game session, we'd split up the whole group into two different parties each of which was doing their own thing and whose stories may interact with one another (eg. "you here a loud commotion from the bar").

The main GM and I would get together before the game and he'd tell me what plot points he wanted me to be sure to hit when I was running the group that had split off.
The problem was, I had to be sure that when I handed the group back to the main GM, certain plot points had been hit and none had been added.

"How does that even work?" It didn't.


LilithsThrall wrote:

ad libbing is the mark of a good GM.

You should never try to start the session with anything more than the most vague of ideas as to what is going to happen. Then, hand everything over to the PCs and learn to pull things out of your backside quickly, learn to think on your feet, and tell your players that plot doesn't matter - character does.
Remember, things don't have to make sense. Things do need to be interesting.

It'd be hopeless to even attempt a logical game with my players, anyway

XD

I have another, not necessarily related, DM dilemma. I have a player who refuses to tell me his character's backstory and insists that I simply follow his hints as to what the consequences are for his character's strange actions.
And he's my dad.


NeonParrot wrote:
Yucale wrote:
Freddy Honeycutt wrote:

Set up a few games that are for the learning curve. We always let new DMs take us through a few low level disposable games till they got the hang of it.

It really cuts down on people with perfectionistic tendinecies putting stress on themselves....

Also you might discover you don't enjoy or want to DM...

If I want to play Pathfinder, I practically have to DM. I'm the only one with rulebooks or any experience with fantasy. I got my first rulebooks from a family friend, but he barely remembers 1E.

I think he will like Pathfinder.

Damn it Jim! I'm a doctor not a DM!

He never has much time.

Nice gaming/Star Trek quote thing.


LazarX wrote:

Are you and your players BOTH having a good time? If the answer is yes, then you've got the essentials covered. The finesse will come with time and practise.

I get very little opportunity for practice, which sorta sucks.


thnx for all the advice, everyone


Yucale wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:

ad libbing is the mark of a good GM.

You should never try to start the session with anything more than the most vague of ideas as to what is going to happen. Then, hand everything over to the PCs and learn to pull things out of your backside quickly, learn to think on your feet, and tell your players that plot doesn't matter - character does.
Remember, things don't have to make sense. Things do need to be interesting.

It'd be hopeless to even attempt a logical game with my players, anyway

XD

I have another, not necessarily related, DM dilemma. I have a player who refuses to tell me his character's backstory and insists that I simply follow his hints as to what the consequences are for his character's strange actions.
And he's my dad.

Don't try. Just give him a bunch of stuff to react to - twisty curvy plots and moral dilemma.

If he wants to play the guessing game and you think it'll be fun, then give him plenty of opportunities to role play and don't bother trying to figure out his background.


Yucale wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:

ad libbing is the mark of a good GM.

You should never try to start the session with anything more than the most vague of ideas as to what is going to happen. Then, hand everything over to the PCs and learn to pull things out of your backside quickly, learn to think on your feet, and tell your players that plot doesn't matter - character does.
Remember, things don't have to make sense. Things do need to be interesting.

It'd be hopeless to even attempt a logical game with my players, anyway

XD

I have another, not necessarily related, DM dilemma. I have a player who refuses to tell me his character's backstory and insists that I simply follow his hints as to what the consequences are for his character's strange actions.
And he's my dad.

More on the point of logic.

How many movie characters do something you -know- is stupid, but if they didn't do it, there'd be no movie.
Players who won't let their characters do something stupid piss me off. Instead of a story, you end up with something about as exciting as doing tax returns.
But the one thing that pisses me off more than players who won't let their PCs do something stupid is GMs who will beat players about the neck and ears if their PCs do something stupid.
Remember, you all aren't writing the next "Art of War", you are telling a collaborative story.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Reminds me of Monte Cook's story about his Ptolus game where the party ran into a guard and asked his name, and Monte brushed it off. One of his players remarked 'Man, I thought EVERYONE in the city had a name.' That's a damn good game right there.

PLAYER So, what's your name, old man. . .

no response from the Guard, who looks like like an old Clint Eastwood, replete with cigarette out the corner of his mouth.
PLAYER: I thought everyone had a name!
GUARD (grabs hold of the player): Yeah, I do, but not for a b+$*&@*~ punk like you.
PLAYER: No prob man!
GUARD: Leave or I'll end you and your miserable friends.

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