Ravingdork |
Wizard, summoner, or sorcerer?
I ask because I need to choose a character for a 15th-level game coming up (which features a lot of intrigue and trips to the lower planes). In my excitement, however, I statted up four complete characters and am now at a loss as to which one I want to play.
I like all four characters for various reasons, but I want to hear what you guys think. Which of the following characters is mechanically the most effective (in terms of being able to contribute to a party)? Which looks the most interesting and fun to play? What stands out about them to you?
Angol Ceredir (Elven high archmage)
- Master abjurer, alchemist, artificer, linguist, and spell sage
Durin Wrang (Human Eidolon rider)
- Master of the mighty eidolon, Salamander
Shioji Petilom (Halfling paladin sorcerer)
- The Sorcerer of Luck who laughs in the face of danger
Yiankun Lee (Halfling earth sorcerer)
- Master of stone and earth whose petrification powers make medusa seethe in envy
In return for helping me make up my mind, please feel free to steal the character sheets for use in your own games. They are all created with 25-point buy, have 3/4 of the maximum variable of hit points (rounded up), and used starting funds appropriate to their level (though much of was spent on crafting costs).
EDIT: The other party members look like they might be...
...Dwarven Paladin (not statted yet, may be a goblin assassin instead)
...Goblin Rogue/Assassin (TWF specialist, easily makes 50+ Stealth checks, may be a dwarven paladin instead)
...Half-Elf Sorcerer (Fire bloodline, flavored as a fire genasi, likes evocaiton and transmutation)
...Human Diviner (focused on finishing a fight before it starts)
Thank you for any help you can provide.
Dragorine |
If I am to play an arcane caster right now I would play the Wizard. Once the advanced players guide comes out I would give the summoner a try at some point, but would still probaly play a Wizard in the end.
I really don't play arcane casters much though. My last one was a Telepath/Enchanter/Cerebremancer...damn undead :P
Robert Young |
I love spontaneous casting, especially at higher levels where metamagic is more viable. I'm torn between the Sorcerer and the Summoner. I usually like my Sorcerer to do a lot of summoning, but it pales in comparison to what the Summoner does with it. I believe the Sorcerer is better at fighting mutiple opponents whereas as the Summoner/Eidolon is a master of single opponent combats. With that as a guide, your other party memebers will be crucial to making an informed decision here. If you have another primary (preferably arcane) caster, go with the Summoner. If not, then you've got a tougher decision here. (Jeez, the Summoner's spell-like ability summons are nirvana to someone who's played as a summoning arcane caster before, go Augmented and put a fiendish/celestial dire tiger, T-rex, etc. right next to the opposition - no save, no spell resistance....)
Ahhhg, my bias is all over this post....
Edit: Hell, just go Summoner and have fun, except for picking your spells.
MerrikCale |
Yiankun Lee (Halfling earth sorcerer)
- Master of stone and earth whose petrification powers make medusa seethe in envy
I gotta say that sounds pretty cool
Ravingdork |
Ravingdork wrote:I gotta say that sounds pretty coolYiankun Lee (Halfling earth sorcerer)
- Master of stone and earth whose petrification powers make medusa seethe in envy
Not only is it conceptually very cool, it is mechanically very effective. Anyone facing her has to make a Fortitude save DC 33 or be forever petrified.
I compared the character to several CR-appropriate monsters. Pretty much all of them had a ~75% chance of failing their save outright. Spell Resistance wasn't very much help either. It only protected them 35% of the time.
Ravingdork |
Out of curiosity, how much did that 20 HD clay golem shield guardian cost?
Golem Creation Costs
Clay Golem Base: $21,500.00
Additional 7 HD: $17,500.00
Size Increase: $25,000.00
Advanced Simple Template: $15,000.00
Golem Creation Laboratory: $500.00
Shield Guaridan Amulet: $20,000.00
FINAL COST: $99,500.00 (160 days to create)
Thea above does not include the additional costs for making the magical amulet sentient (which adds approximately $2,750.00 to the cost).
FallingIcicle |
FallingIcicle wrote:Out of curiosity, how much did that 20 HD clay golem shield guardian cost?Golem Creation Costs
Clay Golem Base: $21,500.00
Additional 7 HD: $17,500.00
Size Increase: $25,000.00
Advanced Simple Template: $15,000.00
Golem Creation Laboratory: $500.00
Shield Guaridan Amulet: $20,000.00FINAL COST: $99,500.00 (160 days to create)
Thea above does not include the additional costs for making the magical amulet sentient (which adds approximately $2,750.00 to the cost).
Nice. That thing is a beast. Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, but I have one other question - how did you make a clay golem as a wizard? Doesn't it require divine spells?
Ravingdork |
How did you make a clay golem as a wizard? Doesn't it require divine spells?
I'm sure it does. I didn't bother to check. With a Spellcraft check modifier of +37, and being able to take 10 to get a total of 47, I don't think not having a few spells will be any problem at all.
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Since the caster level of a Clay Golem is only 11, that means the DC would become 46 tops (and that's if I meet NONE of the perquisites).
Tanis |
IMHO, the main problem with casters is the squish factor, low HP, low AC (until high lvl), and they usually get targeted first as they do the most damage to groups of enemies and their above-mentioned squishability.
Therefore my favourite caster would be wizard/psion/cerebremancer.
I know psion wasn't in the list, but this is still a caster.
Race:Elan
Feats: Advanced Elan Resilience, Body Fuel, Mind Over Body.
Magic Item: Wand of Healthful Rest (doubles natural healing)
As an immediate action you can spend 1 power point to absorb 4 HP damage. You use spells first and leave power points to stop death.
With Body Fuel you can 'burn' 1 pt. from Str, Dex, and Con to get 2 power pts. It's basically ability damage but only healed through natural healing.
So hypothetically, you're out of power pts and spells and there's a barbarian that has just critical hit you with a greataxe - 52 HP.
You 'burn' 8 Str, Dex & Con pts. That gives you 16 pp. You expend 13pp. to absorb 52 HP damage. (13*4=52)
Next round you finish him off with an augmented energy ray (or whatever)
Eight hours rest after using a UMD check on the wand and hey presto! 8 ability points regained to each ability.
Ok, you're screwed until the next day, but you're not dead!
That, combined with the MASSIVE amount of spells/powers you have means you're not likely to run out of ammo any time soon. Plus both wizard & psion use Int. for casting.
Ravingdork |
IMHO, the main problem with casters is the squish factor, low HP, low AC (until high lvl), and they usually get targeted first as they do the most damage to groups of enemies and their above-mentioned squishability.
Therefore my favourite caster would be wizard/psion/cerebremancer.
I know psion wasn't in the list, but this is still a caster.
Race:Elan
Feats: Advanced Elan Resilience, Body Fuel, Mind Over Body.
Magic Item: Wand of Healthful Rest (doubles natural healing)As an immediate action you can spend 1 power point to absorb 4 HP damage. You use spells first and leave power points to stop death.
With Body Fuel you can 'burn' 1 pt. from Str, Dex, and Con to get 2 power pts. It's basically ability damage but only healed through natural healing.
So hypothetically, you're out of power pts and spells and there's a barbarian that has just critical hit you with a greataxe - 52 HP.
You 'burn' 8 Str, Dex & Con pts. That gives you 16 pp. You expend 13pp. to absorb 52 HP damage. (13*4=52)
Next round you finish him off with an augmented energy ray (or whatever)
Eight hours rest after using a UMD check on the wand and hey presto! 8 ability points regained to each ability.
Ok, you're screwed until the next day, but you're not dead!That, combined with the MASSIVE amount of spells/powers you have means you're not likely to run out of ammo any time soon. Plus both wizard & psion use Int. for casting.
Wouldn't the 8 points of Constitution burn take away 4 HP PER character level though? That could end up being much worse than just taking the damage to begin with!
Ravingdork |
true, but you're ALIVE.
which is good.
also, you always have at least 1 HP per lvl.
plus if you're a wizard, you should have at least one scroll of teleport handy.
Sorry, but that 1 hp per level rule doesn't protect you from Constitution loss.
If you are a 10th level wizard with 50 hit points, who has taken 20 damage already, and then you lose 8 Constitution, you will lose another 40 hit points, enough to possibly kill you outright. You won't be left with 10 hit points (1 for each level) in the end. You'll be dead.
Tanis |
Tanis wrote:true, but you're ALIVE.
which is good.
also, you always have at least 1 HP per lvl.
plus if you're a wizard, you should have at least one scroll of teleport handy.
Sorry, but that 1 hp per level rule doesn't protect you from Constitution loss.
If you are a 10th level wizard with 50 hit points, who has taken 20 damage already, and then you lose 8 Constitution, you will lose another 40 hit points, enough to possibly kill you outright. You won't be left with 10 hit points (1 for each level) in the end. You'll be dead.
true dat. but with this build there's no excuse to take damage in the first place. i hear ya tho. it's just an option.
Robert Young |
Not only is it conceptually very cool, it is mechanically very effective. Anyone facing her has to make a Fortitude save DC 33 or be forever petrified.
I compared the character to several CR-appropriate monsters. Pretty much all of them had a ~75% chance of failing their save outright. Spell Resistance wasn't very much help either. It only protected them 35% of the time.
Help my math! Flesh to Stone DC 16, +1 (heighten), +12 (Cha mod), +2 (Gr Sp Focus) = DC 31. What am I missing?
Rosgakori Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere |
Ravingdork |
Ravingdork wrote:Help my math! Flesh to Stone DC 16, +1 (heighten), +12 (Cha mod), +2 (Gr Sp Focus) = DC 31. What am I missing?Not only is it conceptually very cool, it is mechanically very effective. Anyone facing her has to make a Fortitude save DC 33 or be forever petrified.
I compared the character to several CR-appropriate monsters. Pretty much all of them had a ~75% chance of failing their save outright. Spell Resistance wasn't very much help either. It only protected them 35% of the time.
Arcane bloodline lets you choose a school of magic at 15th-level. You get a +2 bonus to the save DCs of spells from your selected school of magic.
Ravingdork |
Since I pointed out the strengths of the halfling earth sorcerer, I think it only fair that I point out the strengths of the others as well...
The wizard, in addition to being able to speak every language and having super high skills, knows ever wizards spell of 8th-level or lower.
The halfing sorcerer paladin has all his saves in the 30s I believe.
The eidolon rider uses mounted combat (with an insane Ride modifier) and HP sharing to keep himself and his eidolon alive.
Cartigan |
The wizard, in addition to being able to speak every language and having super high skills, knows ever wizards spell of 8th-level or lower.
Yes and no. Strictly speaking, a Wizard earns more than the Sorcerer but not all spells. However, they can artificially increase the number of spells known
LilithsThrall |
The wizard, in addition to being able to speak every language and having super high skills, knows ever wizards spell of 8th-level or lower.
Keep in mind that while the wizard can -potentially- know every wizard spell of 8th level or lower, the sorcerer (with UMD and scrolls) can -potentially- cast every spell (cleric, druid, wizard, and other).
Ravingdork |
Yes and no. Strictly speaking, a Wizard earns more than the Sorcerer but not all spells. However, they can artificially increase the number of spells known
Keep in mind that while the wizard can -potentially- know every wizard spell of 8th level or lower, the sorcerer (with UMD and scrolls) can -potentially- cast every spell (cleric, druid, wizard, and other).
I was referring to a specific character. Not wizards in general.
Look at the character sheet for Angol Ceredir. He has EVERY core spell in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook in his spellbooks (from 8th-level on down).
It was a simple matter of using his starting funds to pay for it all.
In general, a character can get every spell in the game for under 160,000 gold (I did the math). And that's assuming you have to pay for the new spellbooks themselves, have to pay for viewing costs as well as scribing costs, and have to start from scratch (such as when somebody destroyed all your old spellbooks).
far_wanderer |
I would recommend Angol Ceradir. You'll be able to do a lot of battlefield control which will help out your assassin/paladin, and it offers up a great many role-playing opportunities between you and the half-elf as he can be all flashy and destructive and you can mutter about how "a real mage knows how to use magic subtly".
SanguineRooster |
Wouldn't the 8 points of Constitution burn take away 4 HP PER character level though? That could end up being much worse than just taking the damage to begin with!
I don't believe it would in this case. The character in question has the Mind Over Body feat so he uses intelligence to calculate HP.
Tanis |
I don't believe it would in this case. The character in question has the Mind Over Body feat so he uses intelligence to calculate HP.
Nah, ya thinking of something else. I know the feat tho, i'm AFB so i can't look it up. but that would be great synergy, btw, it's Int bns to HP for 1st lvl.
Mind Over Body (XPH) allows you to naturally heal 1 + Con mod. in ability damage (& 'burn') per day.
WWWW |
SanguineRooster wrote:I don't believe it would in this case. The character in question has the Mind Over Body feat so he uses intelligence to calculate HP.Nah, ya thinking of something else. I know the feat tho, i'm AFB so i can't look it up. but that would be great synergy, btw, it's Int bns to HP for 1st lvl.
Mind Over Body (XPH) allows you to naturally heal 1 + Con mod. in ability damage (& 'burn') per day.
Faerie mysteries initiate.
Edit: I suppose not since I recall faerie mysteries initiate is int instead of con for all levels rather then just at first. The one at first could be the older version of mind over body from the players guide to faerun.
SanguineRooster |
SanguineRooster wrote:I don't believe it would in this case. The character in question has the Mind Over Body feat so he uses intelligence to calculate HP.Nah, ya thinking of something else. I know the feat tho, i'm AFB so i can't look it up. but that would be great synergy, btw, it's Int bns to HP for 1st lvl.
Mind Over Body (XPH) allows you to naturally heal 1 + Con mod. in ability damage (& 'burn') per day.
Aha, I had to re-read the one from the Forgotten Realms setting. I had a player pull the wool over my eyes with that the other night. I'll have to have a chat with him.
Elyza |
I would go with the summoner, but I would suggest a few modifications.
1) Squeeze the Combat Reflexes feat in there somewhere for Salamander. A 15 foot reach with a +4 Dex mod is just begging for more AoO strikes.
2) Swap Expeditious Retreat in place of Ventriloquism and you have a land movement rate of 70 for Salamander in 15 minute increments.
3) Get a permanent Darkvision cast on Durin. Then he can see as well as Salamander.
Ravingdork |
I would go with the summoner, but I would suggest a few modifications.
1) Squeeze the Combat Reflexes feat in there somewhere for Salamander. A 15 foot reach with a +4 Dex mod is just begging for more AoO strikes.
2) Swap Expeditious Retreat in place of Ventriloquism and you have a land movement rate of 70 for Salamander in 15 minute increments.
3) Get a permanent Darkvision cast on Durin. Then he can see as well as Salamander.
Thank you for the advice. I am always looking to improve my characters, whether or not I choose to play them in the end.
Grey Lensman |
Aha, I had to re-read the one from the Forgotten Realms setting. I had a player pull the wool over my eyes with that the other night. I'll have to have a chat with him.
IIRC, the Realms version of Mind Over Body allowed the character to sub intelligence for con at level one. Every other level after still used con to figure bonus hit points. The other feature of the feat was that it granted 2 HP for every metamagic feat the character possessed.
Ravingdork |
I've updated the summoner. You can find his revised character sheet here.
Changes include...
...Fixed charisma-based skills which did not account for Durin's circlet of persuasion.
...Replaced Salamander's throw anything feat with Combat Reflexes.
...Changed Durin's +5 heavy crossbow into a +4 composite longbow to generate funds for a slotless lesser bracers of archery (which greatly enhances his ranged attacks over the previous rendition).
...Replaced Durin's robe of blending with a much cheaper and longer lasting hat of disguise (which was combined with the circlet of persuasion).
...Replaced Durin's ventriloquism spell with expeditious retreat.
...Added goggles of night to Durin, granting him darkvision 60 ft.
...Changed Durin's +5 longspear into a +4 defending longspear, which when combined with Greater Shield Ally and defensive buffs, allows him to tank extremely well when needed.
He still has 634gp left, which is enough for him to craft a minor wondrous item of 1,268gp value or less. I was thinking of getting sovereign glue so as to stick the magic saddle to Salamander (that way it might go with him when he leaves the material plane).
Anyone have any other ideas on how I could best use the rest of the money? I can liquidate some of the wand charges to get more money too if needed, but it has to be worth the cost.
Ravingdork |
I would get something magical to hold that saddle b/c you are going to be stuck carrying it around when the E is not around.
The saddle is the ONLY reason I bothered to get a Handy Haversack. So that's taken care of.
james maissen |
I've updated the summoner.
Anyone have any other ideas on how I could best use the rest of the money? I can liquidate some of the wand charges to get more money too if needed, but it has to be worth the cost.
I think you will want to outline how you are looking to play the summoner, and how the items will augment this.
There are somethings that I don't see the point of entirely however:
For example you are spending 22,500 or so on the wands of fireball and lightning bolt. Why not look to a staves instead? The 10 charges will be rechargable rather than 25 and gone, the save DC and penetrating SR will be greatly improved (even for your low CHA summoner), and it would be cheaper to boot.
There are a few more of those, but going back towards vision for the character:
You are spending a feat and a lot of cash on armor & weapons. What are you intending?
Are you really going to be riding the eidolon in combat? Might I ask why you don't want to try for a decent ride check and mounted combat? You're spending a feat on skill focus: ride but I don't see it being used here.
Your spells known seem strange to me in places. Mass bull's strength and bear's endurance? Who do you see as the targets for these spells?
Also I only barely glanced at the character, so please forgive if any of the above should be more obvious. Likewise could you just layout the evolutions for the eidolon somewhere (or point me to where if you have)?
-James
Ravingdork |
I think you will want to outline how you are looking to play the summoner, and how the items will augment this.
I want him and his eidolon to be a survivor as well as provide good party support (buffs and the like) while fulfilling a secondary combat/tank role.
There are some things that I don't see the point of entirely however:
For example you are spending 22,500 or so on the wands of fireball and lightning bolt. Why not look to a staves instead? The 10 charges will be rechargable rather than 25 and gone, the save DC and penetrating SR will be greatly improved (even for your low CHA summoner), and it would be cheaper to boot.
You cannot recharge a staff unless one of the spells in the staff is on your spell list. Therefore, if I had a staff of fireball/lightning bolt, it would very quickly empty out and not be rechargeable.
Even if I could recharge it, I still like the idea of being able to spam 10d6 area attacks when needed. If I do that with a staff, I can't repeat the nova the following week or two (since I am busy recharging the staff).
There are a few more of those, but going back towards vision for the character:
You are spending a feat and a lot of cash on armor & weapons. What are you intending?
Every summoner optimization thread I have ever read has always placed the summoner in the combat support role (such as archer) behind his eidolon (which usually fills the primary bruiser/tank role). The feat allows me to get the weapons and armor at nearly 50% discount from my starting funds (since I am enchanting them myself). That frees up a LOT of starting funds to put elsewhere.
Are you really going to be riding the eidolon in combat? Might I ask why you don't want to try for a decent ride check and mounted combat? You're spending a feat on skill focus: ride but I don't see it being used here.
If we aren't adventuring in a cramped cave or similar cramped locale, then yes, I will be riding my eidolon much of the time. I DO have mounted combat. Next level, I'll likely steal a evolution point from the eidolon to raise it by another 8 points, further ensuring that my eidolon lives longer (since I will be negating attacks) and by extension, my summoner (since he can't die from hp damage before the eidolon).
Your spells known seem strange to me in places. Mass bull's strength and bear's endurance? Who do you see as the targets for these spells?
Many of those spells were selected to buff the eidolon...and the summoner...and the party...and any summoned monsters hanging around.
When you actually have 10 allied targets benefiting from +4 to Strength and Constitution (as well as from other buffs such as haste), the combat power and endurance of said group goes up dramatically.
I have a lot of wall spells as well because I like the idea of the summoner being a "master of walls" as well as having some ability to maintain both air superiority (flying eidolon of doom) and ground superiority (splitting up non-flyers from their allies while potentially damaging them as well).
In the end it is all about support spells and battlefield control spells with a few flavor spells (contact other plane) mixed in to round out the character and to better represent his being an expert in the planes.
Also I only barely glanced at the character, so please forgive if any of the above should be more obvious. Likewise could you just layout the evolutions for the eidolon somewhere (or point me to where if you have)?
-James
The chosen evolutions are on the 4th page under Evolutions (with the rest of the eidolons "racial" ability descriptions).
james maissen |
You cannot recharge a staff unless one of the spells in the staff is on your spell list. Therefore, if I had a staff of fireball/lightning bolt, it would very quickly empty out and not be rechargeable.Even if I could recharge it, I still like the idea of being able to spam 10d6 area attacks when needed. If I do that with a staff, I can't repeat the nova the following week or two (since I am busy recharging the staff).
I'm sorry I'm not seeing 25 as being that superior to 10. Especially when you are talking (if I'm reading your 22CHA +6 item=28 right) a DC 22 save & 15 CL penetration vs a DC 14 save & 10 CL penetration.
Here's a staff: CL 8- Fireshield (10charges), Remove Curse (10 charges), Fireball (1 charge). Price is 400*3/10 (120) + 300*3/10 (90) + 200*3/1 (600) or 810 per caster level, or 6480gp.
If you MUST have 20 charges or so, then get TWO. It will cost you 460gp over what you paid for the wand of fireballs.
Every summoner optimization thread I have ever read has always placed the summoner in the combat support role (such as archer) behind his eidolon (which usually fills the primary bruiser/tank role). The feat allows me to get the weapons and armor at nearly 50% discount from my starting funds (since I am enchanting them myself). That frees up a LOT of starting funds to put elsewhere.
You are spending a feat and 28,500gp on those 3 items. Lets go with the following as an example:
Mithril Shirt (1100)Mithril Buckler (1015)
Pearl 1st intelligent & give it GMW 2/day & MV 2/day (13000)
That would give you +4 weapons/armor for 15,150. If you want defending on something then spend the 8300 for that.
Now why you want to try to use a bow without any feats/proficiencies when your eidolon is likely in combat with you riding him is beyond me. But it's not worth a feat and 16,000gp for that bow (not counting the 'slotless' bracers of archery). (And please buy cold iron arrows, then some silver & adamantine ones, at least until you can make it a respectible +5 if you are going this route).
Sorry I somehow missed the mounted combat, as I said I only glanced at it quickly. I was going to say to get that +8 racial on ride.. (oh it might be nice to demark ranks in each skill with your skills if they are in flux for the planning stages.. also towards that any traits allowed?)
The mass bull's strength and bear's endurance will only help you, the eidolon and perhaps a party member or two without an item. Looking at the proposed party it doesn't seem likely. You have augment summoning which doesn't stack with those two spells for your summons (perhaps for other PCs' summons it would tho). They don't seem like good spell choices for you imho. I would simply craft a +4 (or better) item for the eidolon instead (would be like 16-20k gold, depending on available slot(s)).
Anyway, will think more on it in a bit,
JAmes