When writing a Paladin Code I always get imput from the player of the PC that way there is a reduced chance of something wierd cropping up as the two should be able to get the "what if..." out of the way at that point.
Runequest Humakt and Yelmalio Cults both have decent codes of conduct to help give a starting point.
|
also touch of golden ice is considered a contact poison, but is in the BOED for exalted characters.....A common criticism of BOED indeed.
Thanks for saying it for me Man in Black, you waver between one of the coolest guys here and most annoying (depending on if I agree with you or not ;P ) but you always make decent points, and man if there was one book I could remove and re-write from the 3.5 collection it would be the BoED. Hey your exalted here's the good versions of everything from the BoVD but it's okay because they only effect EVIL!
|
|
"Be as a caring father or brother to all in need. Help heal the sick and lift the fallen. Be a guiding light into the darkest hearts and lands"
1. Should heal those that ask for it regardless of if they can pay.
2. Mercy should be granted to those that ask for it or request asylum
3. Help those that can't help themselves. Basically tithe 15% (money earned only. Gear not counted)"Only respond to violence in kind with swift metal and scorching light"
4. Don't initiate combat if another path seems open
5. Actively seek out and destroy any cult of Rovagug.
6. Destroy any mindless undead, as well as anything related to Rovagug as they are beyond redemption."Each new day brings hope and renewed opportunity. One must not let darkness into your life"
7. Can't knowingly tell a lie
8. Can't knowingly use poison
9. Should free any owned slaves, and should do your best to free those in bondage.I adjusted you code based on the feedback and your own comments.
It looks good.I would change number 8, from can't to shouldn't. It would allow the paladin a few more less lethal options. Ex: If the paladin knew that they would be facing several dominated good beings, then using a sleep or disabling poison would be a merciful option that would also support number 3.
Right, here's what annoys me, The paladin can carry a sap. A paladin can carry a merciful weapon. A paladin can grapple and pin and use manacles. I wouldn't change #8 at all.
The flowery text is not really mine, but pieces I've taken from the various sources I could find on Sarenrae."Be as a caring father or brother to all in need.
This may be an irrelevant question, but... Are there no female paladins of Sarenrae?
(I honestly don't know-- I run a homebrew world, so my knowledge of Golarion is pretty spotty.)
If it's an all male order, then there's no problem. If it's mixed-gender, though, the women of the order are going to have a hard time living up to this part of the code.
D&D has always been built on modern morality. It's why slavery isn't accepted except in evil nations ( In fact, that's one of the calling cards of BAD EMPIRES), and why murdering others of another religion, even if that religion is neutral, is an evil act.
The flowery text is not really mine, but pieces I've taken from the various sources I could find on Sarenrae."Be as a caring father or brother to all in need.
This may be an irrelevant question, but... Are there no female paladins of Sarenrae?
(I honestly don't know-- I run a homebrew world, so my knowledge of Golarion is pretty spotty.)
If it's an all male order, then there's no problem. If it's mixed-gender, though, the women of the order are going to have a hard time living up to this part of the code.
there are ... I would imagine, but where did this quote come from and who was it told too.
if it was told to a bunch of men than it would make sense as well.
But it's being presented as the code of conduct for all paladins of Sarenrae (at least, within the campaign run by the OP). Whatever the context of the original quote, if it's meant to be something ALL paladins of Sarenrae have to adhere to, the women of the order aren't going to be able to manage that one.
But it's being presented as the code of conduct for all paladins of Sarenrae (at least, within the campaign run by the OP). Whatever the context of the original quote, if it's meant to be something ALL paladins of Sarenrae have to adhere to, the women of the order aren't going to be able to manage that one.
The flowery text is not really mine, but pieces I've taken from the various sources I could find on Sarenrae."Be as a caring father or brother to all in need.
This may be an irrelevant question, but... Are there no female paladins of Sarenrae?
(I honestly don't know-- I run a homebrew world, so my knowledge of Golarion is pretty spotty.)
If it's an all male order, then there's no problem. If it's mixed-gender, though, the women of the order are going to have a hard time living up to this part of the code.
there are ... I would imagine, but where did this quote come from and who was it told too.
if it was told to a bunch of men than it would make sense as well.
Why not? The caring brother/father is someone who protects and supports firmly and mercifully. You don't need to be male to take on that role in someone's life.
Why not? The caring brother/father is someone who protects and supports firmly and mercifully. You don't need to be male to take on that role in someone's life.
But it's being presented as the code of conduct for all paladins of Sarenrae (at least, within the campaign run by the OP). Whatever the context of the original quote, if it's meant to be something ALL paladins of Sarenrae have to adhere to, the women of the order aren't going to be able to manage that one.
And when was the last time you looked at a woman and said, "She's like a father/brother to me"?
Father and brother are gender specific terms, and claiming that they apply to women as well as men is applying the supposed 'male as neutral' language convention in a fairly extreme way. (Full disclosure: I don't like the practice of using male-gendered pronouns as gender-neutral in the first place. Extending the convention beyond pronouns is even less understandable to me.)
But this is hijacking the thread, for which I apologize. I asked the question because the language of the quote cast doubt in my mind. The OP can decide whether it's worth clarifying in his or her own campaign. :)
edited for clarity
|
|
D&D has always been built on modern morality. It's why slavery isn't accepted except in evil nations ( In fact, that's one of the calling cards of BAD EMPIRES), and why murdering others of another religion, even if that religion is neutral, is an evil act.
So Quadira and Osirion are evil empires? And the whole killing is evil thing isn't a modern morality either, it's over 2000 years old. "thou shalt not kill". If anything people get too caught up trying to apply modern sensibilities to dnd which has a much more rigid victorian morality system.
This may be an irrelevant question, but... Are there no female paladins of Sarenrae?
(I honestly don't know-- I run a homebrew world, so my knowledge of Golarion is pretty spotty.)
If it's an all male order, then there's no problem. If it's mixed-gender, though, the women of the order are going to have a hard time living up to this part of the code.
The code was written for one of my PC's at the table. Since he is male, I went with the line above. Had he been female I would just change it up so it works.
I'll be posting my final version soon, as always great discussion on this so far, I really appreciate getting the different takes people have.
This may be an irrelevant question, but... Are there no female paladins of Sarenrae?
(I honestly don't know-- I run a homebrew world, so my knowledge of Golarion is pretty spotty.)
If it's an all male order, then there's no problem. If it's mixed-gender, though, the women of the order are going to have a hard time living up to this part of the code.
The code was written for one of my PC's at the table. Since he is male, I went with the line above. Had he been female I would just change it up so it works.
I'll be posting my final version soon, as always great discussion on this so far, I really appreciate getting the different takes people have.
I understand. Your campaign, your call. :)
Personally, unless I intended it to be a single-gender order, or I was going to have a different code for male and female paladins of the order, I'd probably try to make the code gender-neutral up front. But I have a mixed-gender table, and I wouldn't want to unthinkingly restrict my players' options (or my own options in creating NPCs) because of gender.
This may be an irrelevant question, but... Are there no female paladins of Sarenrae?
(I honestly don't know-- I run a homebrew world, so my knowledge of Golarion is pretty spotty.)
If it's an all male order, then there's no problem. If it's mixed-gender, though, the women of the order are going to have a hard time living up to this part of the code.
The code was written for one of my PC's at the table. Since he is male, I went with the line above. Had he been female I would just change it up so it works.
I'll be posting my final version soon, as always great discussion on this so far, I really appreciate getting the different takes people have.
I understand. Your campaign, your call. :)
Personally, unless I intended it to be a single-gender order, or I was going to have a different code for male and female paladins of the order, I'd probably try to make the code gender-neutral up front. But I have a mixed-gender table, and I wouldn't want to unthinkingly restrict my players' options (or my own options in creating NPCs) because of gender.
Agreed, this was done in character with his "trainer" basically giving this to him word for word...when I do my final revision, I'll try to make it gender neutral ;)
"Be as a caring father or brother to all in need.
Perhaps "be as a caring parent or sibling to all in need" would be acceptable to all.
|
As for the 10th item I still am drawing a blank. I thought of maybe not allowing the use of "frost" items since she is typically using fire related effects, but just doesn't seem like a good way to go.
Once I'm done with this and have agreement or updates from the Player I'll post the final draft here for those that would want to see it.
As always I appreciate all the feedback on this so far.
How about the 10th code be something related to Law itself?
May the strength of the sun guide you through the fog of mortal words.
10) A paladin must respect the laws of the land he/she knows are just (fair and good). Whenever in doubt, especially when travelling abroad, it is the spirit of the Law that must be followed, if ever the letter is corrupted or unknown.
This should call upon a paladin to think and excercise some judgement, rather than taking things literally which could become stupid -- if not dangerous. It also discourages abuse of interpretation while travelling through lawless lands.
You'll probably want to play around with the wording to get the meaning and flavor right, but I hope the idea helps. :-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm kind of arriving late to this discussion, but I had a little different take on the prohibition against poison.
A paladin is supposed to serve as an example to the rest of society. She is literally supposed to show the rest of us what humanity looks like at its best.
I think that setting the good example is ultimately far more important to a paladin than winning any particular fight, so the way the paladin conducts the fight is more important than the outcome.
Fighting honorably is a win/win for the paladin. If she is victorious, she shows that LG means can triumph. If she is not, she shows that LG means are worth holding onto, even in the face of defeat. I'm not advocating that paladins should run around looking for chances to martyr themselves, but that they should look at every battle as a potential opportunity to teach a lesson. If faced with a too-powerful foe, perhaps she should gather allies ahead of time to show the value of teamwork, etc. instead of using poison to show the value of using sneaky or underhanded methods to win at all costs.
The only exception to the no-poison rule that this discussion has made me consider would be a sleep poison used so that a wrong-doer could be safely transported to a court of law, and even then, it wouldn't be used sneakily. Sort of a "If you do not come quietly, we will shoot you with these sleep-inducing arrows so that we may bring you to justice" kind of thing. Using the same poison just to gain a tactical advantage in a fight would still be out-of-bounds.
As always, I enjoy reading others' responses-- there's some very well-thought-out reasoning here.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow I guess I'm pretty busy, didn't get a chance to update with my final version. So here goes
"Be as a caring parent or sibling to all in need. Help heal the sick and lift the fallen. Be a guiding light into the darkest hearts and lands"
1. heal those that ask for it regardless of if they can pay.
Removed the "must" here to avoid confusion with having to heal enemies.
2. Mercy must be granted to those that ask for it or request asylum
I left the "must" here. Felt it was appropriate for a Goddess of Redemption, and also felt that other parts of the code could also be addressed if the Paladin felt that redemption was beyond that enemy.
3. Help those that can't help themselves. Basically tithe 15% (money earned only. Gear not counted)
No change here
"Only respond to violence in kind with swift metal and scorching light"
4. Don't initiate combat if another path seems open
No change
5. Actively seek out and destroy any cult of Rovagug.
No change, although this is having some interesting effects in my Legacy of Fire Campaign
6. Destroy any mindless undead, Demons, Daemons, Devils, as well as anything related to Rovagug as they are beyond redemption.
Made the biggest change here, by adding Demons, Daemons, and Devils to this list. Seeing how she was an Angelic figure before becoming a Goddess I thought this fit well...My only problem was with the Devils as she has made a pact with Asmodeus. But the character was fine with this. I'm curious as to what the rest of you all think.
"Each new day brings hope and renewed opportunity. One must not let darkness into your life"
7. Can't knowingly tell a lie
No change
8. Can't knowingly use poison
No change. Some interesting points brought up, but again I felt that for a paladin of Sarenrae, that poison use shouldn't be there, but could definately see this in other Codes for different Gods. As others have mentioned there are other ways to bring in bad guys without resorting to poison.
9. Must never own a slave, and must do your best to free those in bondage.
No change
"May the strength of the sun guide you through the fog of mortal words."
10) A paladin must respect the laws of the land he/she knows are just (fair and good). Whenever in doubt, especially when travelling abroad, it is the spirit of the Law that must be followed, if ever the letter is corrupted or unknown.
This last one is too good to pass up, and something that I always felt a Lawful Good person should abide by. This last one just reinforces it. Thanks Winterthorn!
|
Very nice code here!
6. Destroy any mindless undead, Demons, Daemons, Devils, as well as anything related to Rovagug as they are beyond redemption.
Made the biggest change here, by adding Demons, Daemons, and Devils to this list. Seeing how she was an Angelic figure before becoming a Goddess I thought this fit well...My only problem was with the Devils as she has made a pact with Asmodeus. But the character was fine with this. I'm curious as to what the rest of you all think.
It could be porblematic.
Risen/redeemed fiends do exist in the Golarion setting, as they were explicitly mentioned in Classic Horrors Revisited in a small discussion on why mindless undead are evil. Now, such creatures would still be incredibly rare, but the possibility exists. And with Sarenrae being the biggest proponent of redemption amongst the gods and her history of being able to work with Asmodeus for short times for the greater good, it doesn't seem right to bind her paladins with an absolute kill order when the possibility, however slim it may be, of being able to turn a fiend towards good exists.
Just tagging them as "truly irredeemable fiends" might cover it, and allow for any exceptions to be dealt with accordingly without breaking the code. After all, the rule you have already allows leeway for those incredibly rare good undead to be dealt with peacefully. This would just complete the set.
Is it just me, or does anyone else have a much easier time seeing certain demons and devils being redeemable, but daemons not at all? Hell, Calistria has demons that serve her, and they theoretically could be living in her realm in Elysium. Granted, they'd probably be (mostly) CN, heavily altered demons...
And then there's that misty island in Nirvana...
|
|
I disagree about forbidding poison and there is a problem with your mercy.... I dont grant mercy twice, attack after mercy is given, and they you fail again and cry for mercy, and your paladin may end up dead.
I dont grant mercy to the same fool twice in the same encounter
And you're a great fighter for it, let the paladin stick to it's code, and you do what it takes to win :D
Segallion, I'm 100% in favor of the code you have written as is!
As for twice in the same encounter, if he asked for assylum or mercy and you were worried he would attack again, then knock him out. Once again, nothing stopped you from carrying a sap, or manacles. That's still merciful considering you were going to kill him.
Very nice code here!
6. Destroy any mindless undead, Demons, Daemons, Devils, as well as anything related to Rovagug as they are beyond redemption.
Made the biggest change here, by adding Demons, Daemons, and Devils to this list. Seeing how she was an Angelic figure before becoming a Goddess I thought this fit well...My only problem was with the Devils as she has made a pact with Asmodeus. But the character was fine with this. I'm curious as to what the rest of you all think.
It could be porblematic.
Risen/redeemed fiends do exist in the Golarion setting, as they were explicitly mentioned in Classic Horrors Revisited in a small discussion on why mindless undead are evil. Now, such creatures would still be incredibly rare, but the possibility exists. And with Sarenrae being the biggest proponent of redemption amongst the gods and her history of being able to work with Asmodeus for short times for the greater good, it doesn't seem right to bind her paladins with an absolute kill order when the possibility, however slim it may be, of being able to turn a fiend towards good exists.
Just tagging them as "truly irredeemable fiends" might cover it, and allow for any exceptions to be dealt with accordingly without breaking the code. After all, the rule you have already allows leeway for those incredibly rare good undead to be dealt with peacefully. This would just complete the set.
Is it just me, or does anyone else have a much easier time seeing certain demons and devils being redeemable, but daemons not at all? Hell, Calistria has demons that serve her, and they theoretically could be living in her realm in Elysium. Granted, they'd probably be (mostly) CN, heavily altered demons...
And then there's that misty island in Nirvana...
I agree, and the things you bring up as they are why I was concerned. However, I do like the gray areas. Not as a trap to lose Paladinhood, but as an internal conflict. He has several codes that could possibly contradict themselves. This can help by allowing him justifiable actions and he isn't locked down to behaving a certain way. It also will cause him to maybe think twice about what he does.
My real conflict was with the Devils part of it. I think Daemons for sure can be there, sounds like there is no redemption at all in any of them. I wasn't aware of the Demon aspect, but again I think chances are pretty good they are evil to the core. But for now, my player likes it so I'm good with it.
I'm almost curious if a Code of Conduct might be reflective of an area the Paladin trains in. I could see the Paladin from Katapesh, having a very different code than say one closer to the Worldwound...interesting subject either way.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For example, let's take the first one. Must heal all those who ask for it. There's some good intent here, but also some potential for abuse by you as the DM. A wicked creature who has learned of the Paladin's code may use it against them to preserve themselves. A completely irredeemable creature, the very essence of wickedness and suffereing, and to whome the Paladin should respond with all the vigour of attacking a cancer, can say 'Mercy! Heal me!'. What situation does this place the Paladin in now?
It places the paladin in a pretty tough situation, which is, in my opinion, part of the entire point. Being a paladin in D&D isn't a matter of doing good and obeying a strict moral code when you feel like it, or when it's convenient for you to do so. Paladins can't just decide to say, "Boy, it's really annoying that I have to do this, so I'll figure out some reason why I don't have to."
Will an evil, intelligent creature abuse a paladin's code of mercy by surrendering and demanding to be spared, knowing the paladin will not refuse them? Why yes, they will. This is what differentiates a paladin from a lawful good fighter--the paladin obeys his code and serves as an umblemished example of righteousness even when it hurts. Even unto death, if it comes to that. Paladins must be prepared to deal with these kinds of situations, and have to be able to have a solution for problems, particularly evil intelligent beings, other than "find an excuse for killing it".
The paladin does not take shortcuts to serve "the greater good". Down that path lay easy rationalization.
In games I've DMed with paladins, evil humanoids who have recognized the party's paladin have surrendered with the smug knowledge that they won't be touched by the paladin or anyone in the paladin's group. This often leaves the group with dead weight that they have to deal with somehow, which they've approached in various ways. Does this frustrate the paladin? Yes. Does he deal with it? Yes. One time they tied up their prisoner and delivered him back to town to face formal trial, for instance.
For that matter, not all evil creatures will surrender. Particularly demons or religious fanatics, or less intelligent creatures: the former hate the paladin and would fight to the last breath, and the latter may not recognize the paladin for what he is or that he follows a code.
|
2) Poison is lingering. Two men fight, one dies - and the other dies hours or days later. If you live in society where might decides right, this is a horrible way to settle matters. Poisoners become the poor losers of tough guy society.
I could see any warrior, proud of the extensive training and exercise he's endured to be able to put a greataxe through flesh and bone, finding the idea that any scrawny feeb could kill him with a light scratch unacceptable.
Missile weapons used to be unacceptable for paladins, for pretty much the same reason, because it was 'cheating' or 'dishonorable' to not get right up in someone's face and beat them to death with brute force (so saith the guys who are really, really good at that particular tactic, with the best armor and melee weapons, and well-trained sword-arms, stacking the field to their own advantage, and calling anyone who doesn't play by the rules designed to allow only them to win a coward!).
Crossbows were pretty unpopular for this reason in ye olde days. One could spend a lifetime becomeing darn good at swordplay, only to have some idiot who hasn't trained a moment in his life and is many times weaker and less skilled than you *point something at you* and end your illustrious career, even though you, by every standard your society holds dear, are his superior in every way. Poison is just as much of a 'weaklings weapon' that allows the weak man to kill the strong man, the lazy man to kill the industrious man, the craven man to kill the courageous one.
The sun tends to be associated with purification, and as a goddess of healing, I suspect that Sarenrae herself is no fan of poison. (Or spreading filth fever on one's weapons, or lobbing plague corpses into a city under seige, which no version of the Paladin has strictly forbidden, but would probably be unpopular with the healing goddess...) Iomedae might be opposed to the use of toxins for the above chivalric notions (although she might be more than willing to look the other way when other 'equalizers' are used against the demons of the World Wound, such as holy water). Erastil, on the other hand, might approve the use of some natural toxins, for hunting purposes, whether one is hunting dangerous critters or dangerous men that threaten the community. Hard to say.
Given that Sarenrae isn't a goddess of Law (unlike, say, Iomedae), I would probably give her code a stronger focus on Good, and, while the Paladin remains lawful, the Sarenraec Code wouldn't have quite as many fussy little bits about honor and chivalry and all that as an Iomedan Code of Conduct.
IMO, a Sarenraec Paladin would be more likely to break a rule 'for the greater good' than an Iomedan (and risk falling from grace, if she takes it a step too far down this 'slippery slope'), while an Iomedan would be more likely to hold her nose and watch evil acts occur, because she is lawfully unable to interfere (in Katapesh, for instance, where slavery is lawful, and an Iomedan cannot interfere unless she can prove that the slaves were illegally procured or sold, or are being treated in a manner that is proscribed by local law).
On the one hand, a Sarenraec Paladin might feel that her Code empowers her to take action while the Iomedan is forced to suffer the existence of an evil by rules and dogma. She might say, 'All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for you to sheathe your blade and walk away, because no law is being broken.'
On the other hand, an Iomedan Paladin might question what gives the Sarenraen the right to decide the fates of others, and not to respect a higher authority, wondering if the Sararaen Codes lack of focus on matters of discipline and obedience renders the Sarenraec Paladin untrustworthy and more prone to falling...
Both sides would have valid points, in such cases, and both would be Lawful Good, even if one Code focuses more heavily on the Good, and the other balances the ethical and moral considerations more evenly. (While a Paladin of Abadar would focus more strongly on Law, yawing further away from the Sarenraec Code.)
On the issue of poisons, I honstly think the stuff that a Paladin will neither give or take quarter with and would not have any moral quandry about using poisons on are all either immune or highly resistant.
For everything else Paladins really are supposed to be a cut above everyoe else. While i think using a sleep or paralysis poison to take prisoners is probably fine. I think alot of players look at poisons too much in gamist terms. We dont really get told how tha d3 con poison is killing them.
But really poisons in Rl are ugly aweful things that render people permanent invalids, cause them to suffocate as their throat swells up or drown as their lungs fill with fluid. Really its a natural way to do alot of the same things many of the Necromancy spells flagged as evil do.
So would think people who usualy believe in redemption are likely to use what alot of poisons actually do to people.
That said the over all Code looks pretty nifty :)
The pathfinder faith's of companion product actually has a paladin code for sarenrae!
I will protect my allies with my life. They are my light and my strength, and I am their light and their strength. We rise together.
I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the rough beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my in-action, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each of them.
I am fair to others. Expect nothing for myself but that which I need to survive.
The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn to the light, I will redeem them by the sword
I will not abide evil, and will combat it it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith and do not fear embarrassment. My soul can not be bought for all the stars in the sky.
I will show the less fortunate the light of the dawnflower. I will live my life as her mortal blade, shining the light of truth.
Each day is another step toward perfection. I will not turn back into the dark.
I think the big thing with poisons is that they are seen as cowardly, not evil. Cowards are associated with not having honor.[...]
"I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment." -- Seems to me like she wouldn't care that others might call it dishonorable as long as it's the right thing to do. Can it be that?
For example, let's take the first one. Must heal all those who ask for it. There's some good intent here, but also some potential for abuse by you as the DM. A wicked creature who has learned of the Paladin's code may use it against them to preserve themselves. A completely irredeemable creature, the very essence of wickedness and suffereing, and to whome the Paladin should respond with all the vigour of attacking a cancer, can say 'Mercy! Heal me!'. What situation does this place the Paladin in now?It places the paladin in a *pretty tough situation*, which is, in my opinion, part of the entire point. Being a paladin in D&D isn't a matter of doing good and obeying a strict moral code when you feel like it, or when it's convenient for you to do so. Paladins can't just decide to say, "Boy, it's really annoying that I have to do this, so I'll figure out some reason why I don't have to."
Will an evil, intelligent creature abuse a paladin's code of mercy by surrendering and demanding to be spared, knowing the paladin will not refuse them? Why yes, they will. This is what differentiates a paladin from a lawful good fighter--the paladin obeys his code and serves as an umblemished example of righteousness even when it hurts. Even unto death, if it comes to that. Paladins must be prepared to deal with these kinds of situations, and have to be able to have a solution for problems, particularly evil intelligent beings, other than "find an excuse for killing it".
The paladin does not take shortcuts to serve "the greater good". Down that path lay easy rationalization.
In games I've DMed with paladins, evil humanoids who have recognized the party's paladin have surrendered with the smug knowledge that they won't be touched by the paladin or anyone in the paladin's group. This often leaves the group with dead weight that they have to deal with somehow, which they've approached in various ways. Does this frustrate the paladin? Yes. Does he deal with it? Yes. One time they tied...
To me aspects of that sound like lawful stupid. The paladin doesn't follow the code when convenient but when it's right to do so (which is most of the time). However they don't have to be idiots. In fact they can't be or they'd just die out... Sense motive for whether the surrender is genuine. Ask yourself "Given my skill in sense motive how likely am I to falsely assume that he's in-genuine when he's actually genuine?" When that chance goes towards 0 you'll feel certain that you're right, and you take a risk. When there's no consequences to this you continue to do that as cautiously as you can. I can't see a way that if you erred you'd find out that you did, so many paladins could work from this assumption - it would make sense, no? --- Maybe paladins of more lawful gods would chose an algorithm over a heuristic, but remember that Sarenrae is neutral good. To me it seems that her sensing that you are lying and trying to abuse her compassion shows that you're irredeemable, as you've been given an opportunity to do so and chose not to.
Then again "Redemption is rarely a swift process, and your faith
demands the patience to hold your temper and help others
to walk the righteous path." (Faiths of purity) also "Unless someone has shown himself to be irretrievably evil, your faith demands that you treat him with the kindness you would show to anyone who had lost his way." - The whole treat everyone like family thing... At what point would you kill your brother out of mercy? If he became a follower of the Rough Beast, instantly and while you'll be in pain over it, it is necessary. You'll still try to make it as painless as possible for the brother. If he became a mindless undead he would no longer truly be your brother, and you'd destroy the abomination of the undead creature you face. Everyone else gets "a chance at salvation". Still you see many families casting out family members after too much abuse of trust has occurred (Breaking Bad?), mostly due to some kind of addiction. Basically the point where you can see clearly that they don't truly want to change, or if they do they can't.
Her being a neutral good God, I don't think she cares much for honor, as long as you're making the world a better place... Then again "r you might hunt
out abominations and bring justice to the unrepentant
evildoers. Whatever drives you, the end result should be
bringing the light—or sword—of Sarenrae to hearts that
have been dark for too long" -- is sword here metaphorical for death, or quite literal meaning Scimitar?
Perhaps there's a movement to get rid of slavery in your home area and the only thing still keeping that from happening is a powerful old man that's semi-in-charge. You're in diplomatic relations with him who keeps slaves in an especially inhumane way, and after much conversation is unwilling to change that. But his defenses are out of sync with what you could take on even with the help of all your friends... Would poisoning him "bring justice to the unrepentant evildoers"? Perhaps a poison that'll make his heart stop beating in the middle of the night and have him "wake up dead" could solve the problem. It avoids harming any of his guards, many of which are not evil but just lawful and loyal to the family, and thus fully redeemable by changing the family.
Of course you could try and sneak in a helmet of alignment change or something, or manipulate the old dude magically, but he can't naturally be rehabilitated for he is stuck in his ways, and he regrets nothing. Someone who chooses to be blind and won't maybe someday see the error in his ways. And if we're gambling that he will, we're risking the suffering of the slaves. To me her ways are that of good life or death. Manipulating the guy is not bringing light, because it goes against all his values. Surely if given the choice of becoming someone else or dying this stubborn man would choose death, but being so powerful he doesn't feel threatened.
Poison OK?
I find a lot of the other scenarios sort of assume that the PC is in a fair fight or else the situation favors the PC. With the 6E system PCs never really get to the point where they're far enough above everything else that they get to act in such a way. "The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not. [...] If they will not turn toward the light, I will
redeem them by the sword." Again sword->death or Scimitar specifically?
I'd be slightly worried about "I will not abide evil, and will combat it with *steel* when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment." -- Steel. Not fear embarrassment. Perhaps the right thing to do is killing him with the sword, but what if you die after. That will be your last act, and because of the violence of the death others might take offense and change their mind on the slavery thing... where as if you make him just die of what appears to be a heart attack, life can go on as though it was a happy coincidence that the guy who got out of sync with the times faded away... :-S
What are your thoughts? What to do with the powerful old dude?
I like this. Im looking for an opinion. I had a paladin in my group. There was an uncooperative NPC that would not let them investigate his hospital to speak with a patient. They had no idea who he was and no papers or authority. The NPC said that a warrant was required to interrogate anyone believed to be a witness and that he couldn't acknowledge a patient was even at his hospital.
They didnt even know the guys name, other than he arrived a few days ago. Needless to say they got very frustrated. The paladin decided to "go for a walk" and leave knowing his friends would rough up the doctor.
Would this be an act that broke his paladin code? seeing as how they had no reason to expect he was evil and he wasnt and also he had broken no laws.
basically, if a paladin removes himself from a situation knowing his chaotic party members will play the "bad cop" and bend/break the law to accomplish their goals, would this cause him to fall?
I like this. Im looking for an opinion. I had a paladin in my group. There was an uncooperative NPC that would not let them investigate his hospital to speak with a patient. They had no idea who he was and no papers or authority. The NPC said that a warrant was required to interrogate anyone believed to be a witness and that he couldn't acknowledge a patient was even at his hospital.
They didnt even know the guys name, other than he arrived a few days ago. Needless to say they got very frustrated. The paladin decided to "go for a walk" and leave knowing his friends would rough up the doctor.
Would this be an act that broke his paladin code? seeing as how they had no reason to expect he was evil and he wasnt and also he had broken no laws.
basically, if a paladin removes himself from a situation knowing his chaotic party members will play the "bad cop" and bend/break the law to accomplish their goals, would this cause him to fall?
I'd say that the Paladin isn't responsible for what his party members do I'd probably ask if after this is done and he comes back from his walk if he'd use his divine powers to heal the doctor if he refuses because the Doctor wasn't giving him the information and he knows he was hurt do to him 'looking the other way' I'd probably mark down a tally for a step close to falling.
On this tally system how many chances do you get before they fall. What if they actually kill the guy after interrogating him?
(now to make one for Shelynite paladins...)
Be sure to share when you finish! I'm about to start playing a Shelynite paladin in WotR and am currently working on my own COC!
(now to make one for Shelynite paladins...)Be sure to share when you finish! I'm about to start playing a Shelynite paladin in WotR and am currently working on my own COC!
This may interest you:
Paladin Code
The paladins of Shelyn are peaceable promoters of art and beauty. They see the ugliness in evil, even when cloaked in the form of beauty, and their mission is to defend those who devote their lives to the creation of beauty, bring it forth themselves, and prevent the weak and foolish from being seduced by false promises. Their tenets include the following adages.
I see beauty in others. As a rough stone hides a diamond, a drab face may hide the heart of a saint.
I am peaceful. I come first with a rose rather than a weapon, and act to prevent conflict before it blossoms. I never strike first, unless it is the only way to protect the innocent.
I accept surrender if my opponent can be redeemed—and I never assume that they cannot be. All things that live love beauty, and I will show beauty’s answer to them.
I live my life as art. I will choose an art and perfect it. When I have mastered it, I will choose another. The works I leave behind make life richer for those who follow.
I will never destroy a work of art, nor allow one to come to harm, unless greater art arises from its loss. I will only sacrifice art if doing so allows me to save a life, for untold beauty can arise from an awakened soul.
I lead by example, not with my blade. Where my blade passes, a life is cut short, and the world’s potential for beauty is lessened.