I will try and be polite as possible.
After looking everything over, and noting all the negatives and sub-par aspects of the class and still looking for positive aspects to the class, but then I noticed something...
All stat bonuses from rage have been down graded from untyped, to Moral!
Is this a typo to be fixed in the errata?
Has anyone else noticed this?
Has there been any comments on this?
I know the barbarian was stronger than the fighter in 3.5 but this nerf was not needed. It was FINE the way it was. I also know that this isn't much of a difference, but really, NOT NEEDED.
This was just the last nail in the coffin for me.
How many other sources of Morale bonus to strength are there currently? I'm afraid that the amount of outrage I have at the rage power being typed as a morale bonus (which does make sense) is kind of limited by the likelihood of actually finding another source of morale bonus to add to my strength and constitution.
Not saying that this couldn't be a problem... I'm just wondering how much conflict there actually is on it so far.
As carpjay mentioned if it's the only source of a morale bonus to strength and constitution then I'm really not seeing a huge issue here (since there isn't anything else to actually conflict with the rage ability).
Exactly, I'm not aware of any other source of Morale Bonus to STR/CON (or DEX w/ Whirling Frenzy)
About the only thing I could see is the Bonus to Will Saves, which may well overlap with certain buffs (i.e. Inspire Courage). Honestly, I don't really think it was necessary to make Rage not stack with those other bonuses to Saves, but it DOES "make sense" in terms of how to visualize Rage's effects - Rage really seems a very focused "pushing" of emotions, etc VERY similar to Bardic Music's effects on emotions, etc, so it makes sense they would be grouped together in this area.
Sorry OP, but I can't really see the problem here. In fact, I'm quite pleased by this because I didn't ever like the idea of "untyped" bonuses.
I don't understand why you people aren't outraged by this. There is a very common spell that grants a morale bonus to strength and con!
It's called... Rage...
I don't understand why you people aren't outraged by this. There is a very common spell that grants a morale bonus to strength and con!
It's called... Rage...
Nice but it also states in the rage spell that other than the smaller bonuses it is identical to the rage ability which means it wouldn't have stacked anyways (bonuses from same source).
Exactly, I'm not aware of any other source of Morale Bonus to STR/CON (or DEX w/ Whirling Frenzy)
About the only thing I could see is the Bonus to Will Saves, which may well overlap with certain buffs (i.e. Inspire Courage). Honestly, I don't really think it was necessary to make Rage not stack with those other bonuses to Saves, but it DOES "make sense" in terms of how to visualize Rage's effects - Rage really seems a very focused "pushing" of emotions, etc VERY similar to Bardic Music's effects on emotions, etc, so it makes sense they would be grouped together in this area.
This has come up several times in our game. It does not (unsurprisingly) stack with the spell "Rage". I believe in our game "Heroism" came up and it was noted that the +2 to Will from rage does not stack with the +2 from "Heroism" to saves, along with all the other spells that provide a bonus to will saves from morale.
I would imagine the + to hit and damage do stack from such spells, since they apply to the rolls and not to Strength or Constitution.
It was mostly a moment thing, the straw that broke the camels back.
I had noticed all these things that the barbarian was now the worset at, then this.
I understand it not stacking with the rage spell, but that could have been worded with the spell specifically.
I know it makes sense being a morale bonus, but mechanically it was unnecessary, just one more thing powering them down in comparison.
I'm with the Captain on this one - though I was dimly aware of it previously, this sure brings it front and center.
Making it a "morale" thing really does play around in other areas of the playground, thus making the barbarian like ... a second class visitor to the playground I guess? Everyone else gets to make use of the cool morale bonuses ... but not them - follow?
Sure it's not "to hit and damage" bonuses, so I'd at least let that type of thing stack, but then save bonuses and the like can't be applied because the rage effect is now "morale" in nature ... nah - I just don't like that at all.
You know - every other class really got some good upgrades, and if not "on par" to casters, they are at least truly shining stars in their own "niche" so to speak ... except for the barbarians. More and more I'm looking at them and thinking I'll just be doing a complete re-write for use in my own games. It'll be PF inspired, but man am I gonna' knock the needless crud off of it when I'm done.
Sheesh ... *le sigh*
I guess I spend most of my time playing or GMing at the lower levels (1-12) when barbarians seem pretty bad-ass. In fact I found that giving a level of barbarian to lizardfolk, bugbears, gnolls, ogres, etc. makes them MUCH tougher then adding a level of any other class. I have also found that having a cleric throwing around channel energy and cure spells keeps barbarians doing what they do best - raging and dealing massive damage.
On the other hand, I can see how all of these things become less important in the higher levels. My thought would be to add rage powers or feats that are only accessible at higher levels. Ideally something to make the barbarian less dependent on wands of cure light wounds and other between combat healing.
For folks who play/GM barbarians at higher levels, what is it that they lack? I'm guessing their damage output is pretty good, so it is other things that need improvement. Defense? Mobility? Out of combat?
If there was nothing that wouldn't stack with it there is no reason to change it either. What type of bonus is Weapon Focus? It's untyped and no one really complains about it.
The only thing I'll disagree with about the OP's post is...Barbarians were never more powerful than fighters in 3.5, everyone just took one level dip for rage. Barbarians are still almost infinitely weaker than fighters which is sad, but at least rage powers are there now and are FUN.
...Barbarians were never more powerful than fighters in 3.5, everyone just took one level dip for rage. Barbarians are still almost infinitely weaker than fighters which is sad, but at least rage powers are there now and have been neutered since the Beta rules.
Fixed your typo there! ;-)
j/k {for clarity}
but then save bonuses and the like can't be applied because the rage effect is now "morale" in nature ... nah - I just don't like that at all.
You know - every other class really got some good upgrades, and if not "on par" to casters, they are at least truly shining stars in their own "niche" so to speak ... except for the barbarians...
Uh huh...
and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves.
No change in Pathfinder on the saving throw. Virtually no effect on the morale to Str and Con. No nerf here, just a *ton* more potential combats where you can actually use your rage.
Oh.. and *10* new abilities, faster DR progression... come on guys. At least recognize the improvements that were made, even if you don't agree that they are wholly sufficient.
Oh.. and *10* new abilities, faster DR progression... come on guys. At least recognize the improvements that were made, even if you don't agree that they are wholly sufficient.
I for one recognize a tremendous improvement in the Barbarian class in Pathfinder, I never really considered making a Barbarian character in 3.0 or 3.5, but have been thinking about making a barbarian for my next Pathfinder character.
and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves.No change in Pathfinder on the saving throw. Virtually no effect on the morale to Str and Con. No nerf here, just a *ton* more potential combats where you can actually use your rage.
Oh.. and *10* new abilities, faster DR progression... come on guys. At least recognize the improvements that were made, even if you don't agree that they are wholly sufficient.
Ok - fine on the will save piece - no net change from 3.x.
I'll acknowledge even the 'ton more potential combats' bit, BUT you got to recognize the incredible rage power nerfing that took place since Beta.
3.x, Barbarians could rage and get a bonus of +4 on hit and damage by 20th level. That was cool - no other class could do that. Now the fighter surpasses it - getting up to a +9 with full weapon specialization bonuses on damage and +7 on to hit bonuses with wpn focus. Totally usurped this *slight* distinction that barbarians did have.
Then with the lack of rage points and such, the rage powers became 1/rage powers ... totally deballed the entire concept right there. it was one thing when the player could manage his/her resources and spend as needed on whatever option popped to mind at the moment. Now, though, you get the rage power (usable ONLY in rage mind you) and it's not something that modifies how the rage works, and it's not even a "use as you see fit" kind of thing. It's 1 and done = crap-TASTIC in the extreme!
Faster DR progression? Where? It's exactly the same. Or are you counting the rage power's IF you opt to pick that up with them? Beyond which, darn near everything gets DR at a higher degree than Barbarians anyway by 20th level ...
Now, beyond 1/rage powers that pop in with marginal utility (since, you know, it's only 1/rage) what's better now? Besides, even the company acknowledged short-comings on their final product with the whole "we've got new powers coming in the next book" stuff - they KNOW it's weak, and they KNOW mistakes were made ... you can't be that willing to tow the company line are you? Just bury your head in the sand until the new book comes out??
Not I - I'm calling a spade a spade and looking at it for what it is ... flawed execution.
For all the other classes, I see at least 2-3 things that fit as significant improvements IMO. Just ... with the barbarians and the rage powers, it's like they gave with one hand, and took with the other.
but then save bonuses and the like can't be applied because the rage effect is now "morale" in nature ... nah - I just don't like that at all.
You know - every other class really got some good upgrades, and if not "on par" to casters, they are at least truly shining stars in their own "niche" so to speak ... except for the barbarians...
Uh huh...
and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves.No change in Pathfinder on the saving throw. Virtually no effect on the morale to Str and Con. No nerf here, just a *ton* more potential combats where you can actually use your rage.
Oh.. and *10* new abilities, faster DR progression... come on guys. At least recognize the improvements that were made, even if you don't agree that they are wholly sufficient.
Improvements are moot when they nerf the key feats, but give every other melee class stuff bringing them far past the barbarian.
I am not going to go into detail about the inferiority of the barbarian but I will give you the highlights
1. Higher HP is well countered by the generally lower ac, especially in rage, which is followed by fatigue and possible insta-death unless you are immune to fatigue via-rage power.
2. Bonuses to hit are not even to par to a fighter with a weapon in their weapon training with focus/specialization tree, even with rage powers meant to up these factors in attack and damage and also requiring a swift action making combining them impossible.
3. That brings us to another problem which almost every single ability needlessly uses up a taxing action type, when a lot should be a free action, if not automatic.
Maybe thats longer than I wanted but meh. There is nothing I can do about that. I just need to wait and hope that the APH brings it up to par with some decent rage powers.
My main beef with the moral bonus is that its typed. That means that as the system grows, more an more spells will have these types of bonuses, and the barbarian will lose out more and more due to this.
My main beef with the moral bonus is that its typed. That means that as the system grows, more an more spells will have these types of bonuses,...
If we start seeing Morale bonuses to STR/CON. I'm not holding my breath.
WHO RESPONSIBLE THIS?!?
but then save bonuses and the like can't be applied because the rage effect is now "morale" in nature ... nah - I just don't like that at all.
You know - every other class really got some good upgrades, and if not "on par" to casters, they are at least truly shining stars in their own "niche" so to speak ... except for the barbarians...
Uh huh...
and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves.No change in Pathfinder on the saving throw. Virtually no effect on the morale to Str and Con. No nerf here, just a *ton* more potential combats where you can actually use your rage.
Oh.. and *10* new abilities, faster DR progression... come on guys. At least recognize the improvements that were made, even if you don't agree that they are wholly sufficient.
Improvements are moot when they nerf the key feats, but give every other melee class stuff bringing them far past the barbarian.
I am not going to go into detail about the inferiority of the barbarian but I will give you the highlights
1. Higher HP is well countered by the generally lower ac, especially in rage, which is followed by fatigue and possible insta-death unless you are immune to fatigue via-rage power.
2. Bonuses to hit are not even to par to a fighter with a weapon in their weapon training with focus/specialization tree, even with rage powers meant to up these factors in attack and damage and also requiring a swift action making combining them impossible.
3. That brings us to another problem which almost every single ability needlessly uses up a taxing action type, when a lot should be a free action, if not automatic.Maybe thats longer than I wanted but meh. There is nothing I can do about that. I just need to wait and hope that the APH brings it up to par with some decent rage powers.
My main beef with the moral bonus is that its typed. That means that as the system grows, more an more spells will have these types of bonuses,...
Well if you're involved in organized play then I guess this could be an issue. Personally I've been pleased with how the new core PFRPG barbarian plays from 5th to 10 levels.
If your not in organized play it seems to me it's not much of an issue. You can house rule it to an un-typed bonus, or you can do what we house ruled and make morale bonuses stack.
My 2 CP. :)
My main beef with the moral bonus is that its typed. That means that as the system grows, more an more spells will have these types of bonuses,...If we start seeing Morale bonuses to STR/CON. I'm not holding my breath.
Yeah sorry my dyslexia is acting up sorry about that.
are there any abilities or spells or spell-like abilities that turn off or negate morale bonuses?
if there are that would be the big problem with typing rage.
are there any abilities or spells or spell-like abilities that turn off or negate morale bonuses?
if there are that would be the big problem with typing rage.
Yes but they were also things that specifically nixed rage before too. The spell I'm thinking of specifically is Calm Emotion...
However before we rage about how powerful it is as a 2nd level spell lets remember:
It is a concentration spell -- so the caster is giving up a standard action each round to simply stop you from raging... you can still attack and what not, just not rage.
It (as I said earlier) already stopped rage in 3.5 and before too so this isn't something new, and there is a save throw allowed.
are there any abilities or spells or spell-like abilities that turn off or negate morale bonuses?
if there are that would be the big problem with typing rage.
Yes but they were also things that specifically nixed rage before too. The spell I'm thinking of specifically is Calm Emotion...
However before we rage about how powerful it is as a 2nd level spell lets remember:
It is a concentration spell -- so the caster is giving up a standard action each round to simply stop you from raging... you can still attack and what not, just not rage.
It (as I said earlier) already stopped rage in 3.5 and before too so this isn't something new, and there is a save throw allowed.
i knew about that one already and as a barbarian my self i hate that spell but what i was really talking about was not things that nullify rage but things that nullify morale bonuses specifically.
i knew about that one already and as a barbarian my self i hate that spell but what i was really talking about was not things that nullify rage but things that nullify morale bonuses specifically.
Do fear effects neutralize it? I'd think so ... not sure, though.
3.x, Barbarians could rage and get a bonus of +4 on hit and damage by 20th level. That was cool - no other class could do that.
A bard could via Inspire Courage, and not just for himself, but for pretty much the entire party as well.
Then with the lack of rage points and such, the rage powers became 1/rage powers ...
Not quite. Some do; others don't. If I'm a barbarian, and I have, for example, guarded stance and animal fury, I can use those both repeatedly during a rage. Some rage powers became 1/rage powers, but not all.
Personally I too am a little disappointed with the barbarian in pathfinder. At first I was kinda excited about some of the rage powers, but as pointed out a lot of powers are usable once per rage, or take a move action to use. Over all, it just feels like the barbarian got the short end of the stick.
Another thing to point out is that a morale bonus is still classified as mind effecting, so this does have a greater effect than that which has been brought up here. Anything immunity to mind-affecting effects for example, really can't take levels in barbarian without them pretty much being worthless levels.
Personally I too am a little disappointed with the barbarian in pathfinder. At first I was kinda excited about some of the rage powers, but as pointed out a lot of powers are usable once per rage, or take a move action to use. Over all, it just feels like the barbarian got the short end of the stick.
Another thing to point out is that a morale bonus is still classified as mind effecting, so this does have a greater effect than that which has been brought up here. Anything immunity to mind-affecting effects for example, really can't take levels in barbarian without them pretty much being worthless levels.
Very good point, didn't think about that.
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I dunno guys. I'm still not seeing why a Morale bonus to Strength and Constitution is such a big issue. I mean, there are currently 0 other morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution, as far as I know, and even though the Will save stacks with bard buffs, the only problem this could present is that the Barbarian isn't getting an additional +1 or SLIGHTLY higher to his Will saves, which isn't game breaking by any stretch of the word.
Additionally, as for rage being mind-affecting... What class gets immunity to mind-affecting abilities and can take levels in Barbarian? No class gets those benefits. And if you're concerned about monsters taking levels in Barbarian... well, the game specifically states that it is not intended to be played with monsters.
Now, I'm hearing that Barbarians have "Problems" compared to other classes, but I don't see it. I've seen barbarians played, and yeah, the fighter puts out a LITTLE more damage, but not much more. Additionally, the Barbarian has all sorts of skill-based and situational abilities that make it a fun class to play. Yeah, it's a little weaker on the damage level, but it's still a very viable melee class, and it's still a lot of fun. The change to rage, in my opinion, can HARDLY be called a nerf.
Very good point, didn't think about that.Personally I too am a little disappointed with the barbarian in pathfinder. At first I was kinda excited about some of the rage powers, but as pointed out a lot of powers are usable once per rage, or take a move action to use. Over all, it just feels like the barbarian got the short end of the stick.
Another thing to point out is that a morale bonus is still classified as mind effecting, so this does have a greater effect than that which has been brought up here. Anything immunity to mind-affecting effects for example, really can't take levels in barbarian without them pretty much being worthless levels.
Well... according to PFSRD, it looks like they should still be able tobenefit from a Barbarian's Rage.
PFSRD[/url]]Morale
A morale bonus represents the effects of greater hope, courage, and determination (or hopelessness, cowardice, and despair in the case of a morale penalty). Multiple morale bonuses on the same character do not stack. Only the highest morale bonus applies. Non-intelligent creatures (creatures with an Intelligence of 0 or no Intelligence at all) cannot benefit from morale bonuses.
I will state, though, that allowing morale bonuses to adjust statistics sets a dangerous precedent in that it would concievably open the door for magic items granting similar bonuses to stats, in addition to enhancement and inherent bonuses.
As such, I believe that the morale bonus to a Barbarian's rage stats be struck from the book.
I will state, though, that allowing morale bonuses to adjust statistics sets a dangerous precedent in that it would concievably open the door for magic items granting similar bonuses to stats, in addition to enhancement and inherent bonuses.
As such, I believe that the morale bonus to a Barbarian's rage stats be struck from the book.
So long as they don't create said item to start, all they have to go off of is the spell, but you maybe right.
Like... the rage spell?
Which AGAIN, ALREADY granted a Morale Bonus to STR/CON and the Will Save in 3.5.
All that was changed was that the Barbarian Rage which is 'identical' to the Spell Rage was ACTUALLY made identical to the Bonus Type the spell uses (y'know, because it makes sense that way). But they didn't stack anyways. Yet why was there never a flood of Morale Bonus Stat-Boosts, even though the "precedent" was ALREADY established by the Rage Spell?
If you want to whine about the Barbarian in general, fine, but the supposed topic of this thread is pretty much pointless...
Like... the rage spell?
Which AGAIN, ALREADY granted a Morale Bonus to STR/CON and the Will Save in 3.5.
All that was changed was that the Barbarian Rage which is 'identical' to the Spell Rage was ACTUALLY made identical to the Bonus Type the spell uses (y'know, because it makes sense that way). But they didn't stack anyways. Yet why was there never a flood of Morale Bonus Stat-Boosts, even though the "precedent" was ALREADY established by the Rage Spell?If you want to whine about the Barbarian in general, fine, but the supposed topic of this thread is pretty much pointless...
I think the only reason we didn't see a flood of items is because there was no formula of it in item creation, so GMs didn't bother with it. But a character could still figure one out.
However in the end this subject of typed bonus is just a straw the broke the camel's back at that moment. Its really everything else about it that really just POed me.
LOL! Again I'm w/the Captain on this one (keep beating me to the punch). In and of itself, there really aren't *many* things that matter in terms of "morale" bonus and ability boosts ... it is more just frustrating as one more oddity revealed that hits hard on the barbarian concept.
As of *right now* there is no problem with the morale type bonus ... however it does have the potential to be another piece of nerfing for the barbarian vs. other class types as time goes on.
LOL! Again I'm w/the Captain on this one (keep beating me to the punch). In and of itself, there really aren't *many* things that matter in terms of "morale" bonus and ability boosts ... it is more just frustrating as one more oddity revealed that hits hard on the barbarian concept.
As of *right now* there is no problem with the morale type bonus ... however it does have the potential to be another piece of nerfing for the barbarian vs. other class types as time goes on.
In the end, right now, this is another +2 strength and con that other classes get that the barbarian does not.
I don't understand why you people aren't outraged by this. There is a very common spell that grants a morale bonus to strength and con!
It's called... Rage...
WHAT!!!! Rage doesn't stack with the spell Rage! I'm outraged by this! It should make you ragier.
In the end, right now, this is another +2 strength and con that other classes get that the barbarian does not.LOL! Again I'm w/the Captain on this one (keep beating me to the punch). In and of itself, there really aren't *many* things that matter in terms of "morale" bonus and ability boosts ... it is more just frustrating as one more oddity revealed that hits hard on the barbarian concept.
As of *right now* there is no problem with the morale type bonus ... however it does have the potential to be another piece of nerfing for the barbarian vs. other class types as time goes on.
That's right the other classes can find a source for that bonus (no guarantee it will be there) and then are limited to a +2 strength and +2 con morale bonus... where as the barbarian gets to walk around with a +4 str/con morale bonus right off the bat, that increases to +6 str/con morale bonus total that they don't have to find.
I think your argument here is backwards. The barbarian gets a better morale bonus to str/con than anyone else can get. It isn't that he doesn't have access to it -- it's that his is better.
Now I won't say there aren't other areas that the barbarian could use some love still possibly, but in this case I think your looking at it a bit too much from one side.
i think the big point here is that because rage is now classified as a morale bonus the barbarian loses the option to gain additional bonuses like the other classes, the big deal isn't that the barbarian already has a better bonus but that because of a class ability they don't have the option to be subject to the spell.
Exactly - it's not the "rage" spell that bothers me (or most I'd wager), but it's the potential for other spells and objects and supplements to create such bonuses ... leaving the barbarian out in the cold.
:shrugs:
As of now, though - sure. It's silly to get upset about - nothing's there. On my end, though, warning flags are up - that's about as far as I'll take it for now, though.
I see it along the same lines as saying the enchanter is screwed since he can't get any possible item that offers an enhancement bonus to his bluff, diplomacy or intimidate check that they come out with in the future.
Or that the bard is in trouble since they might at some point offer an item that gives a competence bonus to hit and damage.
As it stands the barbarian isn't losing anything -- he's gaining something no one else has -- a morale bonus to his strength and con that is bigger, and better than something anyone else can have -- and is none magical to boot.
You might as well say the protection domain is "bad" since it gives a resistance bonus to save throws -- the most common kind of bonus possible to save throws.
Instead we should look at this as "well the barbarians bonus is better, and non magical and saves him the trouble of finding a source of this type of bonus in the future, unlike everyone else."
Right now there is NOTHING on the morale bonus side that offers anywhere near the benefit that a barbarian's rage does.
However he could still benefit from a morale bonus that is smaller than rage while not raging if he wanted to.
Personally I too am a little disappointed with the barbarian in pathfinder. At first I was kinda excited about some of the rage powers, but as pointed out a lot of powers are usable once per rage, or take a move action to use. Over all, it just feels like the barbarian got the short end of the stick.
Once per rage is lame. Once per round sounds more like it.
Not trying to smurf the thread or anything but IMO, the spell rage totally sucks and isn't even worth casting. It hurts you (and everyone else)) more than it helps you. Am I missing something? Is there any reason to use a 3rd level spell slot on this? I am forced to have this on my list (both my domains have it at 3rd level) and still never cast it.
Well that is very smurf -y of you frogboy.
I did just re-look over the rage class ability, and they no longer are restricted from using command words, so that is a slight bonus.
Just thought if everyone hadn't noticed that.