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Why Is Epic Level Play Broken


D&D 3.5/d20/OGL

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Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
gbonehead wrote:
FatR wrote:
gbonehead wrote:


I don't run a "kill the gods" campaign.
Then, frankly, you have no businness running epic games, assuming gods aren't effectively relegated to spell batteries*, and I don't really get this vibe from your post.

Okay, I'll step out of this discussion now, since you clearly know more about the epic campaign I've run since 2006 than I do.

'sok burt, i'll still play your epic games from time to time, even if we DON'T get to kill all the gods.

-t


Kthulhu wrote:
FatR wrote:
gbonehead wrote:


I don't run a "kill the gods" campaign.
Then, frankly, you have no businness running epic games
Wow. So for you the ONLY viable option for an epic-level campaign is a "kill the gods" type scenario? I pity your lack of imagination, especially considering this hobby's reliance on imagination.

Killing the same wandering monsters you killed at 5th level, except with bigger numbers, is not imaginative. In fact, this is the main reason ELH failed utterly.

And the only reason why an epic-level campaign can deserve a right to have word "epic" in its name is having "the end of the current age of the world" as its main theme. Which pretty much requires from you to fight and probably kill gods (at least these whose ideals you don't like), as they are the lynchpins of the current order. Or fight and probably kill beings that can push gods to sidelines.


LazarX wrote:


You don't get the picture. The gods are Chessmasters who manipulate thier pawns (i.e. thier clerics and certain heroes) the same way the Olympians manipulate the central characters in classical Greek plays.

Olympians tend to be puppets of fate in classical Greek plays. Remember certain Oedipus and how he ended up? He was their favorite. As about their earlier portrayals, higher-end heroes fight, wound and rout gods quite often.

Besides, being pawn is not epic. It frikking sucks in general, for that matter.


Rezdave wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The gods are ...

... whatever the DM chooses for them to be in their game world.

End of discussion.

What an incredibly meaningless statements, considering that DnD gods are supposed to have tons of observable, mechanically defined, even hardcoded into the core of the game, effects on the game world.


Mikaze wrote:


YO DOG, WE HERD YOU LIKE ONETRUEWAYISM. SO WE PUT SOME FALSE DICHOTOMY IN YOUR ASSERTION SO YOU CAN SABOTAGE YOUR POSITION WHILE YOU RANT.

That's called "strawman", not "false dychotomy".

Mikaze wrote:


Frankly, you have no business telling people how they're having fun wrong.

People are having fun with epic games? Really? Epic games as presented by DnD 3.X are absolutely unattractive to the vast majority of the player base. That's a fact. And "epic" games not being actually epic is one of the commonly voiced explanations for that. As about the example in question, I'm sure that a GM can have fun with invulnerable plot-device NPCs and even delude himself into thinking that they are actually liked by players or improve his campaign. Does not make his fun any less wrong. If said NPCs are actually NPCs, and not, again, prayer batteries or otherwise mechanisms, instead of characters.

Mikaze wrote:


Also, "Lady of Pain". Feel free to rage now.

Again, the widely hated NPC from the failed setting. Also, you miss my point about heavy restrictions on divine behavior. Probably deliberately.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
FatR wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


YO DOG, WE HERD YOU LIKE ONETRUEWAYISM. SO WE PUT SOME FALSE DICHOTOMY IN YOUR ASSERTION SO YOU CAN SABOTAGE YOUR POSITION WHILE YOU RANT.

That's called "strawman", not "false dychotomy".

Someone doesn't know what false dichotomy means. Here's a hint! It's what you were using!

Saying that someone has a choice of either X or Y when there is still A-W + Z out there? That is false dichotomy.

FatR wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


Frankly, you have no business telling people how they're having fun wrong.
People are having fun with epic games? Really? Epic games as presented by DnD 3.X are absolutely unattractive to the vast majority of the player base. That's a fact. And "epic" games not being actually epic is one of the commonly voiced explanations for that. As about the example in question, I'm sure that a GM can have fun with invulnerable plot-device NPCs and even delude himself into thinking that they are actually liked by players or improve his campaign. Does not make his fun any less wrong. If said NPCs are actually NPCs, and not, again, prayer batteries or otherwise mechanisms, instead of characters.

Can you not see how presumptuous your words are? Is this some sort of mental block? You're actually saying people are having fun wrong. Hot damn. And you think you're justified in doing so.

FatR wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


Also, "Lady of Pain". Feel free to rage now.
Again, the widely hated NPC from the failed setting. Also, you miss my point about heavy restrictions on divine behavior. Probably deliberately.

OH LAWD.

The Lady of Pain was only hated by people who were never going to enjoy Planescape to begin with. The setting was not made with the hack'n'slash playstyle in mind, nor was it ever required to be made as such.

Srsly, the people that actually get butthurt over the Lady of Pain being a statless entity in the game are as such because either they or their GM mistakenly thought she was an actual NPC to be used to beat the party over the head for getting out of line.

Also, Planescape? Failed setting?[/hahaohwow]

Face it brah. You're forcing your view of the game on others and severely bloating just how widely spread your views are shared.

Get over other people preferring things that you do not.

And if you really do believe those were the only options that guy had for gods in his game, you really need to read more.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
FatR wrote:


And the only reason why an epic-level campaign can deserve a right to have word "epic" in its name is having "the end of the current age of the world" as its main theme. Which pretty much requires from you to fight and probably kill gods (at least these whose ideals you don't like), as they are the lynchpins of the current order. Or fight and probably kill beings that can push gods to sidelines.

Okay, this has ventured pretty deeply into the realm of self-parody.


Mikaze wrote:
FatR wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


... SOME FALSE DICHOTOMY IN ...

That's called "strawman", not "false dychotomy".

Someone doesn't know what false dichotomy means.

Doesn't know how to spell it, either.

I'm really beginning to tire of the term "straw man", mostly because the people who are bandying it about the Boards these days really don't know what it means, either, and almost always misapply it.

In fact, I find that people who mis-identify one argument as a Straw Man then proceed to prop up a real one (straw man, not argument) of their own.

Grrr ... some threads have gotten contentious, lately.

Almost makes me long for the Frank Trollman days ... almost.

R.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Rezdave wrote:

Almost makes me long for the Frank Trollman days ... almost.

R.

*waits for the slavering hordes to descend on Rez*


TriOmegaZero wrote:
*waits for the slavering hordes to descend on Rez*

*has already drawn the bridge and lowered the portcullis ... minions are boiling oil as we speak*

OT stuff:

Seriously, though, the thing I remember about FrTm was that he did have a lot of good stuff and could make well-founded arguments to support his case. I don't recall him accusing people of having wrong-bad-fun, but just about being "wrong" in their understanding of rules, math, mechanics and game design. That and the personal attacks that degenerated his S:N ratio nearly to the point of negative numbers.

But I don't remember him trying to drop Logic terms into arguments and mis-applying them or filling what serious portions of the debates he did have with every logic fallacy in the book. So, on any thread you'd get 2-3 good posts before it degenerated.

Whoa Nelly, but watch out then.

Maybe it's just that recently I've coincidentally been tuning into several threads that featured wrong-bad-fun accusations. That and the sudden, damnably frequent misuse of "straw man" must have me on edge.

:-)

But like I said ... "almost".

Thanks for your concern over my welfare, TOZ

R.


FatR wrote:


And the only reason why an epic-level campaign can deserve a right to have word "epic" in its name is having "the end of the current age of the world" as its main theme. Which pretty much requires from you to fight and probably kill gods (at least these whose ideals you don't like), as they are the lynchpins of the current order. Or fight and probably kill beings that can push gods to sidelines.

I think you need a better dictionary.

Merriam-Webster wrote:


2 a : extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope <his genius was epic — Times Literary Supplement> b : heroic

Which means anything beyond the usual 20 levels deserves a right to have the word "epic" in it's name. Of course if you regularly start at level 20, the name is hardly fitting. As for "b", any character beyond a 1st level commoner could be considered heroic.

FatR wrote:


Killing the same wandering monsters you killed at 5th level, except with bigger numbers, is not imaginative. In fact, this is the main reason ELH failed utterly.

As for the validity of "kill the gods", if the gods can be killed, then they were nothing more than NPCs with really big numbers. Therefore they are aren't particularly special and killing them is no more imaginative than killing the bandit leader you killed at 5th level, except with bigger numbers.

ELH failed because after a certain point everything was just bigger numbers and the numbers became meaningless. Die rolls would become "did I crit" and "don't roll a 1". Anything less than "walk up a waterfall" was no fail.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Rezdave wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
*waits for the slavering hordes to descend on Rez*

*has already drawn the bridge and lowered the portcullis ... minions are boiling oil as we speak*

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Concern? You don't know me very well. :) But yes, there is a reason I read both Paizo and the Den.

@TOZ

Spoiler:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Concern? You don't know me very well. :)

Oh .. I see. You were just preparing yourself for the entertainment value ...

In that case I'll set aside a little of the boiling oil for cooking up old-fashioned iron-skillet popcorn just for you. Salt & Butter I assume?

R.


FatR wrote:
And the only reason why an epic-level campaign can deserve a right to have word "epic" in its name is having "the end of the current age of the world" as its main theme.

Remove the words "... of the world" as well as "main" and I can't actually disagree with this statement.

Then again, the same definition could be used for a non-"epic-level" campaign. No one can convince me Frodo Baggins was an "epic-level" character, yet he was the hero of one of the greatest modern epics.

FatR wrote:
Which pretty much requires from you to fight and probably kill gods (at least these whose ideals you don't like), as they are the lynchpins of the current order. Or fight and probably kill beings that can push gods to sidelines.

Well, can't disagree more. Granted, you might be facing dragons or kings or arch-mages or demons or whatever are in charge of the "current order", but not necessarily the gods. Perhaps the gods themselves can't even be directly fought, and the goal of your "epic" campaign is to wipe out their churches, their base of worshippers and all record of their existence over a period of multiple human life-times, thereby removing their base of worship, support and thus power and influence in your would.

Really, in D&D terms, this is the best way to "kill a god", anyway. Again with the LotR reference, but never once did the Fellowship nor anyone face Sauron directly, yet they clearly defeated him permanently.

Freesword wrote:

I think you need a better dictionary.

Merriam-Webster wrote:


2 a : extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope <his genius was epic — Times Literary Supplement> b : heroic

Random House at dictionary.com gives:

Noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style

What makes something "epic" to me is the scope of the over-arching storyline. This is where the focus of "Epic-Level" campaigns needs to be, not just killing Bigger Bads, but that doesn't necessarily mean fighting or becoming gods, either.

Freesword wrote:
Which means anything beyond the usual 20 levels deserves a right to have the word "epic" in it's name. Of course if you regularly start at level 20, the name is hardly fitting.

Let's not forget that "epic" characters will also spend the majority of their time dealing with mundane affairs. You're very right, proper application of the term "epic" is relative and depends upon the context.

R.


There is definitely a difference between "epic level characters" and an "epic campaign".

Characters above 20th level qualify as epic level characters because they have surpassed the normal level progression. When I said "Of course if you regularly start at level 20, the name is hardly fitting.", it was meant in the sense that "if you normally start at 'epic levels', then are the characters truly 'epic characters' or just normal characters".

An epic campaign can be any campaign that is long running (I have yet to play in a campaign that has lasted more than a dozen levels) or involves world changing events.

I'm thinking the biggest problem with epic level play is the expectations attached to the word 'epic', which seem to vary from person to person.

Shadow Lodge

An idea for an epic adventures/campaign that I had once:

Demilich has a fortress in his own small-ish demiplane. He's using flux slime to drain the magic from other planes, and has been at it for a few centuries. The PC's Prime Material plane is beginning to show visible effects, with great cracks opening in the ground to oceans of flux slime, and wide swaths of dead magic zones or wild magic zones becoming common throughout the world. Traveling to other Prime Material planes reveals that some have been completely drained of all magic.

The demilich still retains a few ecentricities from his long-ago human life...in particular, a penchant for swordfighting. He uses a improved version of Magic Jar to possess warriors to combat against other warriors in an arena at his fortress. This doubles as a way to bring PCs that have gotten off-track back to the main storyline, as the group's fighter can be taken as a potential combatant.

Admittedly, I have bias since I came up with the idea, but I consider that to be a more epic adventure idea than simply deciding to go assassinate some 40th level NPCs (ie, gods).

Shadow Lodge

FatR wrote:
gbonehead wrote:
But there's a simple consideration here. Consider a cleric, who gets their powers from a deity - it's reasonable that said deity is significantly more powerful than that cleric. And since the cleric's party members are assumed to be of corresponding power to the cleric, then other deities are correspondingly more powerful than them.
Yeah as if outgrowing your patron never happens.

When the cleric starts granting the god spells, then he's outgrown his patron. As long as the god is granting the cleric spells, then the god is obviously at a minimum several orders of magnitude more powerful than the cleric.


I have actually played in a game where a god was killed, at least temporarily. Bear in mind that although I was up to 23rd level (I made it in record time thanks to 80+% of the session being 1 one 1 with the GM) I only assisted, and even then I was of limited help, scoring only 2 hits and occupying the god's attention for a mere 3 rounds. Despite that the fight would have been lost without the damage I did. I hurt and distract the god just long enough for the other character to drop it to negativs. The next round the god would have activated a Heal spell and been back up to full.

The main individual in the fight was a character that friend of mine had rolled up BEFORE I WAS BORN. The character was rolled up sometime in early 1979 or slightly before in D&D and had been updated and occationally played through ever version after that. Suffice it to say the character's levels, abilites, etc were off the charts. Part of what he had to do to finally ascend to godhood was kill Tiamat, although it did not end up being permanent. The fight was truly epic.

In my own campaign I would allow the players to kill a god, IF they can pull it off. Of course even in the epic campaign I did run no one got even close to high enough level to pull it off. As has been pointed out the best way to kill a god is to kill their followers.


I don't get why high-end epic play has to be about killing the Gods either. The multiverse is infinite and expanding, there could be any unfathomable creature from the depths that could still be considered a threat, and not be a God in it's own right.

For example, the Yhuzaan Vong(sp) from the Star Wars Expanded Universe. After the Galactic Civil War, these guys show up, just happen to be immune to Force powers, and wreak general havoc on everything. Even lightsabers barely have the effect of a Wiffle-bat on them.

Point is, there could easily be some kind of cosmic oddity that could be immune to magic, immune to physical damage, or some other crazy(dare I say, "epic"?) challenge. Maybe their mind emits some kind of frequency that cancels out vocal spell casting components.

If your players got the this point, it's time to unload the big guns.

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Take Golarion alone:
- find a way to mend the worldwound
- raise a lost city of azlant from the depth and rediscover its secrets
- find the lost heir to the throne of cheliax and help him dethrone house thrune
All of these would doubtlessly change the world at large, at least the fate of the inner sea region and should be called epic quests - yet somehow, none of these quests even touches the subject of challenging a god.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
feytharn wrote:

Take Golarion alone:

- find a way to mend the worldwound
- raise a lost city of azlant from the depth and rediscover its secrets
- find the lost heir to the throne of cheliax and help him dethrone house thrune
All of these would doubtlessly change the world at large, at least the fate of the inner sea region and should be called epic quests - yet somehow, none of these quests even touches the subject of challenging a god.

- survive a trip through the Test of the Starstone...BECOME a god

- resettle Nex or Geb with people

- ensure Rovagug's seal remains locked..possibly adding to Asmodeus's lock/guardians

- re-awaken the other Runelords, make friends or enemies of them

- take on Irrisen...oust the winter queens and Baba Yaga

- find out what the gigantic whirpool is all about, fix the sodden lands back to where they were before

- stop the revolts in Galt...consolidate the nation under one government (Andoran style, probably)

just a few more non-deity-killing Epic play ideas...

-t

Taldor

Heck, the only printed epic adventure I've played has little to do with gods.

The Quicksilver Hourglass

spoiler:
is all about perserving the natural order of souls, and the gods get to sit on the sidelines due to their self-imposed restrictions. That three-headed colossal fiendish black dragon in the shifting room was a pretty epic fight, imo.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Vendle wrote:

Heck, the only printed epic adventure I've played has little to do with gods.

The Quicksilver Hourglass ** spoiler omitted **

Another interpretation

Spoiler:
is all about perserving the status quo, and the gods get to sit on the sidelines due to just being spell batteries that can never interact with the setting. That three-headed colossal fiendish black dragon in the shifting room was just like the hydra we fought back at level 6.

Not saying you're wrong, but it is obvious we all have our own definition of 'epic' play. Some people just want the same game they've been playing since 1st, some people want grand and sweeping consequences resulting from the adventure.

I like psionichamster's plothooks a lot, for what it's worth.

Taldor

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you TOZ. (And those are some excellent plot hooks I'd be interested in!) It's just that I prefer to use the term 'epic' when describing an adventure involving levels and powers above what level 20 PCs have access to. It could certainly be applied to a style of play as well, although this is harder to come to a consensus on for, say, the purpose of categorizing a printed product or a sanctioned event. Example: Is it an epic game if you bring about the fall of an empire solely through combat? At level 6, or level 18?

Applying the term 'epic' to merely reflect the level range is a choice of convenience. I've had lots of fun in games that actually changed the campaign world in significant ways, but I can't say I haven't had as much fun with a richly-described tavern brawl. Depending on how much fun was had, my group and I might call both of these "epic".

I hope this clarifies how I choose to use the term. YMMV.

Qadira

Consider the material plane world on which the player characters staarted to be but one cog in the engine of power that the gods use for their diviine might.

The gods have pawns in place to try and usurp entire worlds to their own ends, thus increasing their power in the material plane somewhat. Now imagine the material plane to be an entire universe, with billions of planets all of them created by the gods and being used to power their divine might. Everything up to a certain level is just toying with one possible source of power for a god. You can't kill the god, you just destroy its power base on one of countless worlds, thus providing the other deities with a slight edge for an infinitismally small amount of time (on a universal scale).

After your level benchmark (lets say level 15 just for kicks), your characters get recognised by the hierarchy of thehir preferred god as being more useful than just trying to get one small cog into play. They drag them to the next plane and get involved in a bigger game. Perhaps this time they're playing with the chanelling focus in which the power of a thousand worlds gets to be turned to a specific gods needs in the universal and cosmic game they play.

The battles and events they face here effect hundreds of planets, but the charaters never really get to see this, as they're operating on a completely different plane. (this might be things like the soul pillars, but they're only for one world. Think bigger).

Eventually, through fighting things like massive level solars and demons etc to take down a number of power sources, the god himself notices his greatest minions and promotes them to the next planar point, beyond the heavenas, where they now discover there is no single unviverse, but an infinite space of dead time where universes are created and destroyed constantly by teh gods and their battles.

This could go on for ever, and not once do you fight a god. You're merely working for them as they juggle power and pieces. Each level cap you're merely progressing to playing with bigger pieces with far ranging consequences. The characters could do things in one level of existance that actually creates a miriad of worlds, where teh people of those worlds believe them to be the creators where in fact they are merely pawns of a greater being. They get power in the form of divine worship, some of which is channled back to the people on that planet but most funnels through to their god. But you know what, the characters aren't even aware of this as the power and creatures they're facing now are so immense that small amount a single world is asking from them is negligable in the extreme.

That's my idea for an epic campaign that allows for infinte progression. It opens up the game for any number of game scenarios without once letting the players kill "The gods". Unfortunately as I've discovered on the few times I've played at epic level, it's really hard to DM, purely for the time required to prep and run things. That's what stops me from DMing my games beyond level 25 or so. I have no problem creating "epic" scenarios, just no time to devote to teh preparation required for such things.

Hope that was useful to soemone.

Cheers


The Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep modules in second edition all involved killing Gods and the characters ranged from levels 5 to about 13 over the course of the trilogy. A story of Gods dying or being involved in their deaths does not need to wait until Epic level play. My players loved that trilogy when I ran it about 8 years ago.

I don't think Epic level play is broken. Does it stretch the mechanics of d20? Absolutely but so long as the DM balances NPC's well in relation to the PC's I think it works just fine. The characters rarely fail rolls but this makes sense as they are so skilled and so powerful by this point that they would rarely fail in their tasks. When the DO fail is when things get interesting.

If there is a "problem" with Epic level play it is the amount of work it takes the DM to prep game. At 37th level I was ready to go back to 1st level and start a new campaign. :-)


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Dennis Harry wrote:
If there is a "problem" with Epic level play it is the amount of work it takes the DM to prep game. At 37th level I was ready to go back to 1st level and start a new campaign. :-)

+1

For me, it is worth the work, but holy crap is it a lot of work.


I am not thinking it is broken. I think epic play is a lot like first level play. Have you ever noticed how most people dont like to play first level and dont like to stay there long; Epic level is the same only there is no where else to go. Basically, I think it is a GM issue, this is not to point finger or hurt feelings and I dont mean to offend.

First level is difficult for GM's as you have this desire to make a fun, thrilling adventure, but what is to much; 1st level characters are tender and easily broken; so, the threats have to be able to chill the soul, but not overwhelm them every time. Before most gm's master this, the characters have graduated to higher levels where they can soak by various means whatever you throw at them; thus greater monsters and greater threats.

now Epic level, well it has taken a long long time for characters to get to epic level; they KNOW their characters; or should; they have countless feats and abilities and good gear; so it becomes difficult for gm's to find a threatstick mob to beat the party with and still get any thrill or excitement.

At this point the GM has limited options depending on thier skills. Most gm's I have seen just send more or bigger, toughter mobs and tend to forget any premise of balanced environment; really; if this mega epic creature had been around before the pc's found him and had not checks and balances; why isnt he running the place and how many King Kongs on Monster island can there be anyhow. This can be fun for hack and slashers who just want a challenge of the next big mob; GM's who specialize in the "monster the gm made up" skill do well, but I find you run out of mob ideas and new powers and new twists.

The second option is all paperwork for the players and gm; its the scenario where you do the king of the hill thing; build cities and castles and armies and trade and like that, where most of your adventures are trying to build something why everyone and their brother and brothers cousin tries to plot your downfall and destroy it. This kind of game boors the hack and slashers; but the administrator and plotter types love it; but it is a WHOLE LOT of work; this game can consume your life.

Your third option of a GM is fairly common; the adventures leave the prime material plane and "graduate" to new planes where they are once again; small fish in a big pond and grow from there. They can adventure; become guardians of their home plane; they can play in wierd environments that change all the rules; where their best spells heal the mobs and wild things happen. This is where a gm really has to do his homework; but there is so much planular resource material available; heck; so many pocket dimension and alternate this that and the other; dust off some crusty old gods that want to return to the prime material; this area is ripe for exploitation by gm's; here you can mix venues and all kinds of stuff; have the big baddies in the background like Cuthulu and other Hoary Old Ones. The Kid Gloves come off in Epic the risks and rewards are greater.

so; basically I think the Epic problem is really a gm problem. I find those most troubled by it are those who dont grow beyond the monster manual; my advice is to think of the monster manuals as a primer; any gods as just their avatars that they manifest on the prime; but in thier home dimension; pretty much all powerful and appease them you should or life can get....interesting.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Dennis Harry wrote:

The Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep modules in second edition all involved killing Gods and the characters ranged from levels 5 to about 13 over the course of the trilogy. A story of Gods dying or being involved in their deaths does not need to wait until Epic level play. My players loved that trilogy when I ran it about 8 years ago.

If that was the ones based on the Avatar series of books, you should keep in mind that with one exception the Gods had been rendered mortal by the overgod Ao at the time. So that's kind of a rather special case.


Oh I am aware of that fact. However, it was a campaign where Gods rose and fell and it was not an epic level adventure. My point was and is that an epic game need not ONLY be about killing Gods, nor does the death of a God plot ONLY happen in an epic game.


very true; in my game lots and lot of gods have died; sorta; in my game I play that a lesser or intermediant god is dependant on clerics and worshippers; thus if you kill off all a dieties followers and or clerics; then they loose contact with the world; so if you do this on every world a diety has worshippers; they could wither away. But; the dieties can also be cut off from the prime material plane in other ways; vanquished by a stronger diety and such. Greater gods dont need worshipers; they are primal to the cosmos. On the flip side; dieties can also change or be created by mortal belief in something; with strong enough devotion; presto; a diety awakens as cause and effect. So; this sort of thing is not level dependant.

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