True Seeing VS Hide in Plain Sight


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Since Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural ability, does True Seeing trump it?


Ravingdork wrote:
Since Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural ability, does True Seeing trump it?

Based on game mechanics I believe the answer would be "No". Hide in Plain sight just allows you to use the Hide skill without having something to hide behind, and True Seeing states that it does not help you see people who are simply hiding.

I can see why that may feel unsatisfying, however, since the ability IS a supernatural ability, and it does say that it lets you hide without being behind anything but a shadow. You'd be well within your rights as a DM to say that True Seeing DOES trump the hide ability when hiding without anything to hide behind, but that you don't need to re-roll your stealth check when you move behind something if you began by hiding in plain sight, etc.


Ravingdork wrote:
Since Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural ability, does True Seeing trump it?

I am going to say yes, but not for the listed reason (Su). I think it does so because the 2 HiPS abilities that I know of in core (assassin and shadowdancer) require shadow or dim illumination for concealment, and true seeing negates this type of concealment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

The Ranger also gets HiPS in favored terrain. So that version is not defeated by True Seeing. I would rule that TS does not defeat the other HiPS just because I want noncasters to have SOME kind of ability that isn't instantly defeated by casters. But by the rules, it does pierce shadowdancers and assassins HiPS.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
The Ranger also gets HiPS in favored terrain.

go rangers! forgot about that one.

so what if they have to wait until 17th level to fool casters...

always thought that them getting it so late was a raw deal.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Clockwork pickle wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Since Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural ability, does True Seeing trump it?
I am going to say yes, but not for the listed reason (Su). I think it does so because the 2 HiPS abilities that I know of in core (assassin and shadowdancer) require shadow or dim illumination for concealment, and true seeing negates this type of concealment.

Actually, HiPS does not require dim illumination or concealment, just a shadow. EDIT: Only Shadowdancers need dim illumination, whereas assassins only need a shadow. Odd that the wording is different.

Furthermore, being able to see through the shadows does not change the fact that the shadows are still there (which means the assassin/shadowdancer can still use his ability). It looks to me as though the A/S might still be able to hide.

All the ability does is allow the A/S to make a Stealth check even though you are looking directly at him.


Quote from above: "Actually, HiPS does not require dim illumination or concealment, just a shadow. EDIT: Only Shadowdancers need dim illumination, whereas assassins only need a shadow. Odd that the wording is different."

I think I saw tonight on another thread that James (someone who seems to be involved in Paizo/Pathfinder official game creation...I think) commented that the difference between the two write-ups was just an unfortunate occurence based on publication timing, that dim light = shadow for all intents and purposes and the two abilities were intended to work exactly the same, just did not get the same language in each write-up.

Sorry, I can't point to the thread...just throwing it out there.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Carpjay wrote:

Quote from above: "Actually, HiPS does not require dim illumination or concealment, just a shadow. EDIT: Only Shadowdancers need dim illumination, whereas assassins only need a shadow. Odd that the wording is different."

I think I saw tonight on another thread that James (someone who seems to be involved in Paizo/Pathfinder official game creation...I think) commented that the difference between the two write-ups was just an unfortunate occurence based on publication timing, that dim light = shadow for all intents and purposes and the two abilities were intended to work exactly the same, just did not get the same language in each write-up.

Sorry, I can't point to the thread...just throwing it out there.

Actually, that "another thread" was one that I started shortly after this one. Luckily, Jason was the first poster and he cleared everything up handedly. I would have edited the above post to make a note of it if I could. Also, the thread can be found here.

Scarab Sages

James Jacobs, in the other thread wrote:

The wording for those two is different because the categorization of lighting in Pathfinder was a relatively late to the game refinement, and we weren't able to standardize every mention of illumination in the game. The assassin's a good example.

In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.

Lighting conditions are now measured in objective levels, rather than being subjective, compared to nearby conditions.

This is a good thing, since, as anyone who has stood outside on a sunny day, with multiple ambient light sources and reflections, an area can appear to be 'in shadow', while actually being lit brighter than an object left in the open on a cloudy day.


Ravingdork wrote:

being able to see through the shadows does not change the fact that the shadows are still there (which means the assassin/shadowdancer can still use his ability). It looks to me as though the A/S might still be able to hide.

All the ability does is allow the A/S to make a Stealth check even though you are looking directly at him.

I agree that the description of the ability is vague enough to justify the default "GM call" about how it interacts with true seeing.

that being said, it seems to me that the simplest explanation of the ability is that A/S HiPS requires nearby concealment provided by shadows or dim light. because true sight (or blindsight/blindsense for that matter) negates that concealment, the ability doesn't work.

however, the ability doesn't actually say that, and it is possible that the shadows do something else to allow stealth checks.

really the point is kind of moot in most conditions. sure, they can hide, but they are going to need to hide in something other than the shadow/dim illumination for it to work against true seeing. I guess it would be equivalent to automatically succeeding on a free action bluff to distract.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Clockwork pickle wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

being able to see through the shadows does not change the fact that the shadows are still there (which means the assassin/shadowdancer can still use his ability). It looks to me as though the A/S might still be able to hide.

All the ability does is allow the A/S to make a Stealth check even though you are looking directly at him.

I agree that the description of the ability is vague enough to justify the default "GM call" about how it interacts with true seeing.

that being said, it seems to me that the simplest explanation of the ability is that A/S HiPS requires nearby concealment provided by shadows or dim light. because true sight (or blindsight/blindsense for that matter) negates that concealment, the ability doesn't work.

however, the ability doesn't actually say that, and it is possible that the shadows do something else to allow stealth checks.

really the point is kind of moot in most conditions. sure, they can hide, but they are going to need to hide in something other than the shadow/dim illumination for it to work against true seeing. I guess it would be equivalent to automatically succeeding on a free action bluff to distract.

I interpret it differently, but I wouldn't have any problem at all with a GM who ruled otherwise.


Clockwork pickle wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

being able to see through the shadows does not change the fact that the shadows are still there (which means the assassin/shadowdancer can still use his ability). It looks to me as though the A/S might still be able to hide.

All the ability does is allow the A/S to make a Stealth check even though you are looking directly at him.

I agree that the description of the ability is vague enough to justify the default "GM call" about how it interacts with true seeing.

that being said, it seems to me that the simplest explanation of the ability is that A/S HiPS requires nearby concealment provided by shadows or dim light. because true sight (or blindsight/blindsense for that matter) negates that concealment, the ability doesn't work.

however, the ability doesn't actually say that, and it is possible that the shadows do something else to allow stealth checks.

really the point is kind of moot in most conditions. sure, they can hide, but they are going to need to hide in something other than the shadow/dim illumination for it to work against true seeing. I guess it would be equivalent to automatically succeeding on a free action bluff to distract.

From the Pathfinder SRD

Quote:
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.

So, no, true seeing should NOT help you find people using HiPS.


also from PFSRD spell description for true seeing:

"The subject sees through normal and magical darkness"

so this negates the concealment provided by same. unless HiPS provides another kind of concealment, or otherwise allows stealth checks (in which case it would work against blindsight/sense too), true seeing should trump hiding in shadows or dim illumination, just like x-ray vision should prevent hiding behind a wall.

the ranger version should work fine, though, as it doesn't depend on this type of concealment.


That's the thing, the HiPS of the Shadow Dancer and Assassin does't use concealment at all. This came up with Darkvision, beinging able to see in darkness (or dim light) does not remove the environmental condition that the HiPS uses. As HiPS is not Invisibility, it is hiding through a special use of Stealth.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
That's the thing, the HiPS of the Shadow Dancer and Assassin does't use concealment at all. This came up with Darkvision, beinging able to see in darkness (or dim light) does not remove the environmental condition that the HiPS uses. As HiPS is not Invisibility, it is hiding through a special use of Stealth.

is there a thread or something on this? I am interested in seeing a fulsome discussion.

EDIT: found several with a search

HiPS and darkvision

seems to summarize a lot of the back and forth and has links to related threads

after looking several threads over, it seems to just be back and forth consistent with inconclusive, talk to your GM...

no official ruling, I suppose?

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So let's see if I understand this correctly (summarizing from the above and from the rules):

True Seeing does NOT allow you to see someone who is simply using Stealth to hide. (PRD: "True seeing does not help [...] spot creatures who are simply hiding.")

Hide In Plain Sight allows you to "use the Stealth skill even while being observed."

For the Assassin and the Shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural ability.

True Seeing allows you to "see all things as they actually are" (including past magical illusions). So the question is--can True Seeing allow you to see past the supernatural elements the Assassin and the Shadowdancer are using to Hide in Plain sight? As it CANNOT, RAW, see past the actual use of the Stealth Skill?

Neither True Seeing, nor the HiPS descriptions, nor the description of what a Supernatural ability is clear this up.

Things to consider:
- Dispel Magic does not affect supernatural abilities. Antimagic Field does. I realize this is sort of a vague stretch here, but do you think True Seeing works more akin in spirit to Dispel Magic or Antimagic Field? Personally I'd be inclined to say it's more akin to Dispel Magic, and thus would not affect Supernatural abilities, but I can see this being argued in other ways.

- As mentioned, the Ranger version of Hide in Plain Sight is Extraordinary, not Supernatural, so definitely would not be affected by True Seeing.

- If the "supernatural" shadows are helping hide the Assassin or Shadowdancer, does that negate the use of the Stealth Skill itself? And therefore, if that "supernatural"ness is seen through does that mean the use of the Stealth skill is cancelled, or merely penalized?

There is no clear answer, but I would be inclined to approach this one of two ways:

1. True Seeing does not negate/see through ANY form of Hide in Plain Sight, so as not to make the Ranger version more powerful than the Assassin/Shadowdancer version.

or

2. True Seeing DOES see through the "supernatural" aspects of Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS, but does not immediately negate the use of the Stealth skill. I would rule that an Assassin/Shadowdancer being viewed by someone with True Seeing as being seen as "moving while using Stealth" and apply a -20 to their Stealth result to the person with True Seeing only. This still allows the skill to be used while keeping the spell somewhat useful in a magic/supernatural circumstance.


DeathQuaker wrote:

So let's see if I understand this correctly (summarizing from the above and from the rules):

True Seeing does NOT allow you to see someone who is simply using Stealth to hide. (PRD: "True seeing does not help [...] spot creatures who are simply hiding.")

Hide In Plain Sight allows you to "use the Stealth skill even while being observed."

For the Assassin and the Shadowdancer, Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural ability.

True Seeing allows you to "see all things as they actually are" (including past magical illusions). So the question is--can True Seeing allow you to see past the supernatural elements the Assassin and the Shadowdancer are using to Hide in Plain sight? As it CANNOT, RAW, see past the actual use of the Stealth Skill?

Neither True Seeing, nor the HiPS descriptions, nor the description of what a Supernatural ability is clear this up.

Things to consider:
- Dispel Magic does not affect supernatural abilities. Antimagic Field does. I realize this is sort of a vague stretch here, but do you think True Seeing works more akin in spirit to Dispel Magic or Antimagic Field? Personally I'd be inclined to say it's more akin to Dispel Magic, and thus would not affect Supernatural abilities, but I can see this being argued in other ways.

- As mentioned, the Ranger version of Hide in Plain Sight is Extraordinary, not Supernatural, so definitely would not be affected by True Seeing.

- If the "supernatural" shadows are helping hide the Assassin or Shadowdancer, does that negate the use of the Stealth Skill itself? And therefore, if that "supernatural"ness is seen through does that mean the use of the Stealth skill is cancelled, or merely penalized?

There is no clear answer, but I would be inclined to approach this one of two ways:

1. True Seeing does not negate/see through ANY form of Hide in Plain Sight, so as not to make the Ranger version more powerful than the Assassin/Shadowdancer version.

or

2. True Seeing DOES see through the "supernatural" aspects of...

Thank you, that was coherent and just what I needed this morning! Makes good sense to me. It will get word lawyered later today.. but I think it'll hold up.

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