Paizo's plans for Digital Tools? Suggestion


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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bugleyman wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

The crapping on WotC software for not doing everything every single person can conceive for every single RPG system and hand waving away any problems there are with Hero Lab is getting quite tiring.

We get it, you people are Herolab zealots and hate WotC. How about we talk about a Paizo Pathfinder digital tool? Which was supposed to be the topic if the thread header is any indication.
Wow dude. So I'm "crapping" on WotC for not delivering a GameTable almost two years after it was to be released? Speaking of zealotry...

I don't think it's fair to really hold this span of time against WotC. They are not actively developing the original VTT, so there's no real sense in complaining about how long it's taking them. They are no longer saying that they will be putting out a VTT. You can complain about them canceling development of it; that certainly is a worthy gripe. But it's not like they're just taking their sweet time. They reorganized their priorities and are focusing on other applications now, instead of the VTT. I expect that their interaction with the SurfaceScapes team is in large part due to the fact that the team has a VTT that is revolutionary, designed for 4e, and could easily be ported to run on a non-Surface platform (like a PC), and if WotC can pick that project up they'll already have much of the work done.

God help all the other RPG tool developers out there if they end up releasing SurfaceScapes with full Insider integration.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Talking about VTT (Virtual Table Top) there is a really good one already out there.

I use d20Pro for my games all the time. I run my tournament The Cheese Grinder using it, and my home campaigns.

Check it out.

http://www.d20pro.com.

It started as a 3.5 product but now supports Pathfinder and 4E.

For my character editor I use HeroLabs.

Oh and d20Pro can import characters directly from DDI character builder, and Hero Labs!


Scott Betts wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

The crapping on WotC software for not doing everything every single person can conceive for every single RPG system and hand waving away any problems there are with Hero Lab is getting quite tiring.

We get it, you people are Herolab zealots and hate WotC. How about we talk about a Paizo Pathfinder digital tool? Which was supposed to be the topic if the thread header is any indication.
Wow dude. So I'm "crapping" on WotC for not delivering a GameTable almost two years after it was to be released? Speaking of zealotry...

I don't think it's fair to really hold this span of time against WotC. They are not actively developing the original VTT, so there's no real sense in complaining about how long it's taking them. They are no longer saying that they will be putting out a VTT. You can complain about them canceling development of it; that certainly is a worthy gripe. But it's not like they're just taking their sweet time. They reorganized their priorities and are focusing on other applications now, instead of the VTT. I expect that their interaction with the SurfaceScapes team is in large part due to the fact that the team has a VTT that is revolutionary, designed for 4e, and could easily be ported to run on a non-Surface platform (like a PC), and if WotC can pick that project up they'll already have much of the work done.

God help all the other RPG tool developers out there if they end up releasing SurfaceScapes with full Insider integration.

wait? Have they stopped developing it? I was under the impression that they are still working on itbut have taken a "it'll be ready when it's ready" approach. There was an interveiw recently with the new brand manager and one of the designers where I could have sworn one of them alluded to that...

Sovereign Court

Speaking of d20pro, Hero Lab/Lone Wolf are in the process of looking at developing an interface for the two programs.

Scott Betts wrote:
No, this is a completely different VTT they are now pursuing. They realized shortly after the launch that it was simply not feasible to develop a VTT and meet the other goals they had. So they launched the Character Builder, then did a bit of marketing research and discovered that what most people wanted were tools for helping create their campaigns, so the next application they developed was a Monster Builder. They've made the wise decision to work on one project at a time, and because of that everything they've put out has been polished and useful.

I don't care if it's "VTT 2.0" or not. They should have known before launch that it was a no-go, certainly in enough time to yank referrences to it from their advertising and books. I can't imagine how it's now a "wise decision" to not bite off more than you can chew AFTER you've had the Heimlich applied.

DDI's VTT is vaporware. They promised it, heavily promoted it, almost 3 years later they are still just talking about it.

Quote:
And, since you get to keep the Character Builder and Monster Builder, and character and monster creation is all HeroLab actually does, I'd say they're absolutely comparable from that standpoint.

So it's your assertation that the DDI's character and monster builder can be had for $10, essentially, and that is the price point to which people should be comparing other programs? If so,I'd answer A) ever hear the term "loss leader"? and B) 4th ed was built to be easier to incorporate into such a piece of software, whereas 3.X/PRPG is much harder to adapt to a similar format. And C) Hero Lab does more than make characters, even if that is what most people use it for.

The Exchange

Twowlves wrote:


I don't care if it's "VTT 2.0" or not. They should have known before launch that it was a no-go, certainly in enough time to yank referrences to it from their advertising and books. I can't imagine how it's now a "wise decision" to not bite off more than you can chew AFTER you've had the Heimlich applied.

DDI's VTT is vaporware. They promised it, heavily promoted it, almost 3 years later they are still just talking about it.

And people became subscribers based on that and the other stuff.....


As an idort who has done the impossible and plays both Pathfinder and 4e, the DDI is an amazing bargin for what you get, and I honestly can't imagine 4e without it. It's a huge "Yes, get this!" for any 4e player. I honestly don't care if they haven't brought out the VTT, it's still pretty dang awesome.

As for Wolf Labs, until they bring out something amazing that the others don't - and making you pay for new books is more or less the opposite of this - I'm gonna stick with the chargens that don't cost me money.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
wait? Have they stopped developing it? I was under the impression that they are still working on itbut have taken a "it'll be ready when it's ready" approach. There was an interveiw recently with the new brand manager and one of the designers where I could have sworn one of them alluded to that...

The last I heard regarding the old VTT is that they were no longer actively developing it. In the recent "The Truth About 4th Edition" interview, they did mention that they were working on something about the VTT, but I'm guessing she meant the SurfaceScapes team, not the original VTT project.


ProfessorCirno wrote:
As an idort who has done the impossible and plays both Pathfinder and 4e, the DDI is an amazing bargin for what you get, and I honestly can't imagine 4e without it. It's a huge "Yes, get this!" for any 4e player. I honestly don't care if they haven't brought out the VTT, it's still pretty dang awesome.

This. As most people who actually use DDI will tell you, the fact that it doesn't include a VTT is not a concern that weighs heavily on our souls. We're too busy generating awesome characters, designing cool monsters, and crafting interesting encounters with a handful of clicks to worry about it.

WotC's suite of digital tools has been so helpful in increasing the appeal of 4e that I think at this point designing digital tools has to be on any tabletop gaming companies list of eventual goals in order to grow their game. It's a milestone that simply must be reached. I'm sure Paizo has given this some serious thought.


Twowlves wrote:
I don't care if it's "VTT 2.0" or not. They should have known before launch that it was a no-go, certainly in enough time to yank referrences to it from their advertising and books.

Yes, they should have. They screwed up, and they apologized for it, dropped the price point of the subscription service, rolled out new applications to flesh it out, and have since been hitting their stated deadlines like clockwork. Like most companies dipping their toes into software development, the guys at WotC found out the hard way that it's easy to overpromise and underperform.

Twowlves wrote:
I can't imagine how it's now a "wise decision" to not bite off more than you can chew AFTER you've had the Heimlich applied.

The wise decision I was talking about is their strategy of developing one application at a time in order to get things out the door, and not to discuss anything until it's absolutely going to happen.

Twowlves wrote:
DDI's VTT is vaporware. They promised it, heavily promoted it, almost 3 years later they are still just talking about it.

Except they're not talking about it. Other people keep bringing it up, but WotC's been saying as little as they can about it. The only mention I've seen of it in months was the interview mentioned above, and that was really a non-answer response to an interview question.

Twowlves wrote:
So it's your assertation that the DDI's character and monster builder can be had for $10, essentially, and that is the price point to which people should be comparing other programs?

No. I'm saying that the ability to get in on that product for $10 is something that needs to be taken into consideration. I'm not saying they're equivalent, but simply that they are comparable.

Twowlves wrote:
If so,I'd answer A) ever hear the term "loss leader"?

Yes, I have, and I know what it means. Do you? DDI is not a loss leader for WotC. It's not even close to a loss leader. Even at conservative estimates, WotC is making hundreds of thousands of dollars every month from DDI, and their own costs are relatively low. If you're making tremendous bank off the product itself, it's not a loss leader.

Now, it's possible that the core rulebooks (or the starter set, for instance) is a loss leader for WotC, enticing people to buy into their subscription service, which in turn provides advertising for and incentive to purchase their supplements. That's not what you were talking about, though, I don't think.

Twowlves wrote:
and B) 4th ed was built to be easier to incorporate into such a piece of software, whereas 3.X/PRPG is much harder to adapt to a similar format.

Perhaps. Clearly, however, that adaptation has been done.

Twowlves wrote:

And C) Hero Lab does more than make characters, even if that is what most people use it for.

I'm not intimately familiar with the package, but as far as I can tell from their product pages, it creates characters and I think can create or modify monsters as well. Again, the Character Builder and Monster Builder both do the same thing.

Sovereign Court

Scott Betts wrote:
Twowolves wrote:


I don't care if it's "VTT 2.0" or not. They should have known before launch that it was a no-go, certainly in enough time to yank referrences to it from their advertising and books.
Yes, they should have. They screwed up, and they apologized for it, dropped the price point of the subscription service, rolled out new applications to flesh it out, and have since been hitting their stated deadlines like clockwork. Like most companies dipping their toes into software development, the guys at WotC found out the hard way that it's easy to overpromise and underperform.

Ok, at least we agree on something. And I imagine it's a lot easier to hit those deadlines when you tackle a project about 25% as difficult.

Scott Betts wrote:
Twowolves wrote:


So it's your assertation that the DDI's character and monster builder can be had for $10, essentially, and that is the price point to which people should be comparing other programs?
No. I'm saying that the ability to get in on that product for $10 is something that needs to be taken into consideration. I'm not saying they're equivalent, but simply that they are comparable.

I'd say they are different programs that had different design goals and methods of implementation, with different degrees of difficulty. One had the advantage of having it's rules system tailor-made for it, the other having to adapt to another company's complex product. DDI is WotC's subscription bread'n'butter, whereas Lone Wolf has no subscription system. They offer a product with support for a set price. Additional functionality is often provided free, sometimes at a small cost per add-on. If you mean to say that Paizo should look at $10 as their entry-level price point, I'd say that's been done with their Core Rules PDF. I would also imagine that Paizo would also love to have a subscription based digital tools model, since it's almost "guaranteed" money every month.

Scott Betts wrote:
Twowolves wrote:


If so,I'd answer A) ever hear the term "loss leader"?
Yes, I have, and I know what it means. Do you? DDI is not a loss leader for WotC. It's not even close to a loss leader. Even at conservative estimates, WotC is making hundreds of thousands of dollars every month from DDI, and their own costs are relatively low. If you're making tremendous bank off the product itself, it's not a loss leader.

I do know what a loss leader is, but my attempt to explain how I meant it applied here was not executed well. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say it was a loss leader in the traditional sense, but more like a "foot in the door" in the hopes of hooking a new subscriber. The value of the suite of tools probably would be much higher than $10, perhaps more than the $30 price tag for HL, but they expect people to pay way more than that over the course of their subscription lifetime. I doubt they expect people to drop $10 for 1 month, get the software, then unsubscribe and never spend another dime on the DDI.

"Scott Betts wrote:
Now, it's possible that the core rulebooks (or the starter set, for instance) is a loss leader for WotC, enticing people to buy into their subscription service, which in turn provides advertising for and incentive to purchase their supplements. That's not what you were talking about, though, I don't think.

Yes, I believe reading that, at least for 3rd ed, WotC took a loss on the price for every PHB, MM and DMG sold, making them true "loss leaders" in the true sense of the word. I'd be surprised if 4th ed were any different.

Scott Betts wrote:
I'm not intimately familiar with the package, but as far as I can tell from their product pages, it creates characters and I think can create or modify monsters as well. Again, the Character Builder and Monster Builder both do the same thing.

It's really meant to be marketed to the players more than the DMs. It lets you make the character, including henchmen, followers, mounts, animal companions, familiars, etc etc, and then also has some game functionality, with check boxes for automatically applying conditions and temporary modifications in play, as well as tracking things like spells used, encumberance, hps, etc etc. In the next week or so, they expect to have the Bestiary dataset ready, and the functionality expanded to advance non-humanoid monsters (which are already in the base program) by HD, templates and class levels, so it will greatly expand it's usefulness to DMs as well. They also have mentioned in passing something about establishing an interface with d20pro, so that in itself is another step toward the VTT for Pathfinder. Finally, it comes with an editor feature and lots and lots of tutorials. Before Pathfinder, I had the HL license for 3.5 ed, and I was able to enter in new races, classes, domains, feats, magic items, etc etc etc, and I'm far from programming-literate. This feature alone lets users do something DDI won't let them do, and that is let the owners of HL input custom 3rd party/house ruled material for use in their games.

(Incidentally, I also have the dataset for Mutants and Masterminds, which has a potentially complex point-buy character creation system, and HL is worth every penny there, picking up on errors in point costs many would never catch.)

Back to the original topic of the thread, I would hope that Paizo works something out with Lone Wolf, because their work so far has been quite nice IMO, but no matter what they choose to do, I hope it is functional with and without electronic support at the game table. And most of all, I hope they don't promise more than they can deliver, nor divert so much talent and resources to it that the dead-tree version of their business suffers.


I think Twowlves, that the major sticking point people are getting confused with is what they get if they buy HL. It has been said you have to buy more books. The truth is you have to buy extra rules sets for different game systems, not for different updates to the core rules of the system you chose to begin with.


xorial wrote:
I think Twowlves, that the major sticking point people are getting confused with is what they get if they buy HL. It has been said you have to buy more books. The truth is you have to buy extra rules sets for different game systems, not for different updates to the core rules of the system you chose to begin with.

I think a lot of people are going to consider having to buy additional data packs specifically for the Bestiary and the APG the same as having to buy a data pack for extra books. Because, y'know, that's pretty much what it is.


xorial wrote:
I think Twowlves, that the major sticking point people are getting confused with is what they get if they buy HL. It has been said you have to buy more books. The truth is you have to buy extra rules sets for different game systems, not for different updates to the core rules of the system you chose to begin with.

Uh no, for Pathfinder, you are paying extra for books other than "core." What new rule sets are added in the Beastiary, or the Advanced Player's Guide?


Scott Betts wrote:
xorial wrote:
I think Twowlves, that the major sticking point people are getting confused with is what they get if they buy HL. It has been said you have to buy more books. The truth is you have to buy extra rules sets for different game systems, not for different updates to the core rules of the system you chose to begin with.
I think a lot of people are going to consider having to buy additional data packs specifically for the Bestiary and the APG the same as having to buy a data pack for extra books. Because, y'know, that's pretty much what it is.

Where is this posted? I haven't seen it on the website.


Cartigan wrote:
xorial wrote:
I think Twowlves, that the major sticking point people are getting confused with is what they get if they buy HL. It has been said you have to buy more books. The truth is you have to buy extra rules sets for different game systems, not for different updates to the core rules of the system you chose to begin with.
Uh no, for Pathfinder, you are paying extra for books other than "core." What new rule sets are added in the Beastiary, or the Advanced Player's Guide?

The rules sets I'm referring to is if you want 4e, Mutants & Masterminds, etc. If you are being facetious, then nothing is really new in those upcoming works. Again, I haven't seen this posted on the website. Wouldn't matter anyway. I still like the program. I could enter that data myself, but have no problem paying for somebody else to do it for me.


xorial wrote:


The rules sets I'm referring to is if you want 4e, Mutants & Masterminds, etc. If you are being facetious, then nothing is really new in those upcoming works. Again, I haven't seen this posted on the website. Wouldn't matter anyway. I still like the program. I could enter that data myself, but have no problem paying for somebody else to do it for me.

It's in the Pathfinder subforum on their site in the sticky.


Cartigan wrote:
xorial wrote:


The rules sets I'm referring to is if you want 4e, Mutants & Masterminds, etc. If you are being facetious, then nothing is really new in those upcoming works. Again, I haven't seen this posted on the website. Wouldn't matter anyway. I still like the program. I could enter that data myself, but have no problem paying for somebody else to do it for me.
It's in the Pathfinder subforum on their site in the sticky.

Thank you. Found it. Again, I have no problem with that idea.

I know that others look at WotC as a model, but you are paying for extras there, too. Needs a monthly subscription to get the continued up dates to materials published by WotC. I don't see the reason for the HeroLab hate. You don't agree with the product? Fine, you show that by not buying. I personally didn't like E-Tools, but other did. I don't harp on them for their product loyalty. Cartigan, I KNOW there is some product out there you are totally loyal to. you can't tell me that there isn't something that you buy that you prefer a certain brand to another. It may have even led to a couple of bad purchases, but overall you are still satisfied with them. Do you own a Mac or a PC? Do you prefer Linux? Do you prefer Open Source to purchase software? I know there is something that somebody could argue that you like too much, lol.

Sovereign Court

I think part of the problem is that they are going to charge $10-$15 for the expanded functions that go along with the bestiary and another $15-$20 for all the additional material in the APG, and that makes some people think that HL charges this for every hardback book a supported system puts out. It is coincidental that Pathfinder only has 2 hardback books out and 3 more on the horizon. Mutants and Masterminds has litterally dozens of books out, and the only thing HL/LW has charged extra for is the Ultimate Power sourcebook ($20). They added material from Mecha and Manga, Wizards and Warriors, Freedom City, Mastermind's Manual etc etc for free already. Likewise, they already have support for most all OGL humanoid monsters, Pathfinder Society organized play, the first 5 adventure paths (Runelords through Council of Thieves) etc etc for free, plus the regular updates and bug fixes.

And they have a free demo for people to try. It can't save portfolios nor export/print, and it's somewhat limited in what it does (being a free demo and all), but it's there for the curious.

Sovereign Court

If you believe that your free time is better spent typing in, copy-clipping, or otherwise doing the input of book material in free or purchased software, please do so.

In my case, I can think of a million other things I'd rather be doing. So paying someone 10 or 20 dollars to do that work and make sure it's all correct and fixing it promptly when it's not (which would take me at least a week to do myself for each book) is well worth the money to me. It seems that many agree with that sentiment. Does that make it true for everyone? No.

But for the people that is true for, it's a pretty big deal.

Now, when I was a teenager, I thought differently. I went with PC-Gen and excel sheets that were free on the web and I was happy to code away and figure it out and tweak memory settings and all kinds of nonsense. My time vs. money ratio was the opposite of what it is now (thankfully!).

But I'm not a teenager any more, so when someone says "extra content will cost extra", I am fine with that because I know SOMEONE has to get paid to do quality work and support it as well as LWD has proven to. Frankly I'm just happy someone WANTS to do it in a way that I find very easy to use.

If you think that it should be free instead, then DO THE WORK TO MAKE IT HAPPEN! I'm not mr. moneybags; All things being equal, I'll choose free over paying for it. It's just that in every situation like that, I found that you end up getting what you pay for. So much so that it's just not worth it to me to even bother anymore.

Like I said before, funny thing to me about charges like Hero Lab is doing for the Bestiary... I'm pretty sure all the people who complain that it should be free would flip out if they didn't get paid when *they* worked at a job.


Dom C wrote:
But I'm not a teenager any more, so when someone says "extra content will cost extra", I am fine with that because I know SOMEONE has to get paid to do quality work and support it as well as LWD has proven to. Frankly I'm just happy someone WANTS to do it in a way that I find very easy to use.

See, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't charge money for it. It makes sense that it should cost something. But paying what is essentially 66% of the cost of the book itself all over again just to add its functionality to your suite of digital tools is, I think, an idea whose time has passed. If you're planning on releasing a number of books on a regular schedule, a subscription model makes the most sense (or a large, up-front cost, but I'd guess that fewer people would be interested in that).

I imagine one of the reasons that HeroLab charges so much per additional data pack is that the amount of personal investment in doing the work to put one together is very high, and that cost is currently distributed among a relatively small customer base. If Paizo were to sign on and promote it to its own customers, undoubtedly HeroLab's customer base would increase, which would increase its revenue and allow it to lower the price of its product. That's one of the nice perks of producing software - your costs do not increase proportionally to your customer base.


I wouldn't mind HeroLab costing more if they gave more.

In my experience though, you really don't get much from HeroLab that you don't already get from other, free products.

Oh yes, and Army Builder Army Builder Army Builder Army Builder :3

Liberty's Edge

I am a Hero Lab user and will purchase Pathfinder expansion products for it. That's all I got on that front. Should it be an official tool for Paizo? No idea.

Computer tools for RPG's in general still aren't where I'd like them to be... but they're getting there. Lot of really neat stuff out there.


Twowlves wrote:


Mutants and Masterminds has litterally dozens of books out, and the only thing HL/LW has charged extra for is the Ultimate Power sourcebook ($20).
They added material from Mecha and Manga, Wizards and Warriors, Freedom City, Mastermind's Manual etc etc for free already.

Completely irrelevant because they ARE charging extra money for other Pathfinder books.

Quote:
Likewise, they already have support for most all OGL humanoid monsters, Pathfinder Society organized play, the first 5 adventure paths (Runelords through Council of Thieves) etc etc for free, plus the regular updates and bug fixes.

And? You are just dismissing their charging more for Pathfinder than other sources by.. pointing out they are charging more for Pathfinder than other sources. Like that makes sense.

The HeroLab expansions for Pathfinder are costing as much or more than buying the products from Paizo digitally. Excuse me if I don't give them a pass especially since this is different than what they USUALLY do.

Sovereign Court

Cartigan wrote:
Twowlves wrote:


Mutants and Masterminds has litterally dozens of books out, and the only thing HL/LW has charged extra for is the Ultimate Power sourcebook ($20).
They added material from Mecha and Manga, Wizards and Warriors, Freedom City, Mastermind's Manual etc etc for free already.

Completely irrelevant because they ARE charging extra money for other Pathfinder books.

Quote:
Likewise, they already have support for most all OGL humanoid monsters, Pathfinder Society organized play, the first 5 adventure paths (Runelords through Council of Thieves) etc etc for free, plus the regular updates and bug fixes.

And? You are just dismissing their charging more for Pathfinder than other sources by.. pointing out they are charging more for Pathfinder than other sources. Like that makes sense.

The HeroLab expansions for Pathfinder are costing as much or more than buying the products from Paizo digitally. Excuse me if I don't give them a pass especially since this is different than what they USUALLY do.

Did you miss the point on purpose, or are you unintentionally being obtuse? By pointing out how much free material they have given for other systems, I'm showing an obvious trend in how the company works. The very first two lines of my post you were quoting says that they are charging for 2 datasets is not because Pathfinder only has 2 extra books pending is [u]coincidental/u]. I see you don't bother to note that the Gamemaster Guide material isn't being mentioned as something they will charge extra for, and that HL has already released for free similar content for another of it's supported systems (Mastermind's Manual for M&M). You also ignore the fact that HL has already released free support for several Paizo products.

Finally, I'll point out that comparing the price for the program and datasets to Paizo's PDF prices is not fair, because Paizo pretty much undercuts every major publisher with their PDF prices.

Feel free to ignore any or all of my points to continue your Hero Lab bashing. You will anyway.


ProfessorCirno wrote:


Oh yes, and Army Builder Army Builder Army Builder Army Builder :3

LOL.

ARMY BUILDER ad infinitum indeed.


Twowlves wrote:


Did you miss the point on purpose, or are you unintentionally being obtuse? By pointing out how much free material they have given for other systems, I'm showing an obvious trend in how the company works.

Which is COMPLETELY irrelevant the moment I point to the fact HeroLab is charging separately for Pathfinder Core Handbook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide.

Quote:
I see you don't bother to note that the Gamemaster Guide material isn't being mentioned as something they will charge extra for

Because it's in the core handbook? Insert rolling eyes here.

Quote:
and that HL has already released for free similar content for another of it's supported systems (Mastermind's Manual for M&M).

Speaking of being obtuse. Pathfinder is not M&M and M&M is not relevant. Never mind the fact that releasing stuff free for a different system IS COMPLETELY COUNTERED by the fact they are charging individually for Pathfinder material.

Do you work PR for HeroLab or something?

Quote:
You also ignore the fact that HL has already released free support for several Paizo products.

And you ignore the fact they are charging for the Bestiary and Advanced Player's Guide.

Quote:
Finally, I'll point out that comparing the price for the program and datasets to Paizo's PDF prices is not fair,

hahaha. sure it is. I can pay $10 for the entire book in PDF form or I can pay $15-20 for a rule update of the same material to Herolab.

Quote:
because Paizo pretty much undercuts every major publisher with their PDF prices.

Are you arguing HeroLab is a publisher? Or maybe you are arguing that PDF material from the company that produces it should cost as much as book despite the fact that PDFs wave the cost of printing and distribution.


Scott Betts wrote:


I imagine one of the reasons that HeroLab charges so much per additional data pack is that the amount of personal investment in doing the work to put one together is very high, and that cost is currently distributed among a relatively small customer base.

I'm glad you pointed this out Scott. This here is one of the reasons I'm fine with paying for the extra datasets. How much TIME would it cost me to do this stuff myself? Sure I could probably sit down in an afternoon or two and get the extra classes, feats etc into HL, but do I REALLY want to? Nope. I'm having a hard enough time messing with free tools like Maptools, that it's making me look twice at Fantasy Grounds and d20Pro. Are the latter 2 as versitile as the first, not really, but are they easier to use for the basics? Yup. and right now I'm looking for easy not more work. Let HL do they work and I'll gladly pay them for their time and effort.

Sovereign Court

Cartigan wrote:
Twowlves wrote:


Did you miss the point on purpose, or are you unintentionally being obtuse? By pointing out how much free material they have given for other systems, I'm showing an obvious trend in how the company works.
Which is COMPLETELY irrelevant the moment I point to the fact HeroLab is charging separately for Pathfinder Core Handbook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide.

No it's not.

Quote:
I see you don't bother to note that the Gamemastery Guide material isn't being mentioned as something they will charge extra for
Because it's in the core handbook? Insert rolling eyes here.

YOU mean THIS is in the core handbook?

Gamemastery Guide

Maybe you aren't faking it and you really are obtuse.

Quote:
and that HL has already released for free similar content for another of it's supported systems (Mastermind's Manual for M&M).
Speaking of being obtuse. Pathfinder is not M&M and M&M is not relevant. Never mind the fact that releasing stuff free for a different system IS COMPLETELY COUNTERED by the fact they are charging individually for Pathfinder material.

I suppose that since the sun came up yesterday is completely irrelevant, since it's still dark today then?

Quote:
Do you work PR for HeroLab or something?

No I don't, do you work for a competitor?

Quote:
You also ignore the fact that HL has already released free support for several Paizo products.
And you ignore the fact they are charging for the Bestiary and Advanced Player's Guide.

No I'm not. I have quoted their price point for it several times.

Quote:
Finally, I'll point out that comparing the price for the program and datasets to Paizo's PDF prices is not fair,
hahaha. sure it is. I can pay $10 for the entire book in PDF form or I can pay $15-20 for a rule update of the same material to Herolab.

Now it's my turn to laugh. $10 for a PDF of a set of core rules vs $10 for... not the core rules. Not an update to core rules. For an entirely new book's worth of material integrated into a program. Talk about apples and oranges, you are comparing apples to meatloaf.

Quote:
because Paizo pretty much undercuts every major publisher with their PDF prices.

Are you arguing HeroLab is a publisher? Or maybe you are arguing that PDF material from the company that produces it should cost as much as book despite the fact that PDFs wave the cost of printing and distribution.

No, I'm not, and you know I'm not. You are comparing apples to mega-farm mass prodused oranges instead of locally grown organic farmer's co-op oranges. I'm sure you know perfectly well that Paizo sells their PDFs for way less than other, similar sized (or bigger) companies sell comparable PDFs of their core books. A more accurate comparison would be to compare the cost of their data set to the cost of some other, NON-PAIZO PDF. Duh.


Cartigan wrote:


Quote:
Finally, I'll point out that comparing the price for the program and datasets to Paizo's PDF prices is not fair,

hahaha. sure it is. I can pay $10 for the entire book in PDF form or I can pay $15-20 for a rule update of the same material to Herolab.

Yes, but the usage of the two products is different.

The how you use the PDF of material is different than how you would use the datasets for HeroLab. Or at least the way I use them is different.

With PDF's I print out portions of what I want to read on the train or at work while on break. I print out pictures and maps for handouts. If I'm putting together a character using a PDF I'm using the PDF as a reference and writing the actual character on a sheet of paper (which, and I dont know about everyone else is more work than using a program like HeroLab).

With the dataset once already loaded, I dont need to reference the physical book, the PDF or anything else for that matter (for the most part anyway). I just use the dataset along with the existing program to do what I need. Print character sheet and I'm done.

the only similarity between the two is that they are both electronic products having to do with Pathfinder. In the end they are used differently and that difference in utility (again a


Twowlves wrote:


No it's not.

Yes, it is.

The core is included in the base cost of HeroLab.
And the other two will each cost as much as or more than it costs to buy the books digitally.
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?p=36578#post36578

Quote:


YOU mean THIS is in the core handbook?
Gamemastery Guide

I was assuming you were referring to the GM material included in the core book. But what material is in THAT book that HeroLab could even add? From the description, it sounds like there arn't any rules in it so much as "DMing 101: What You Need to Know"

Quote:


I suppose that since the sun came up yesterday is completely irrelevant, since it's still dark today then?

Actually, yes. If the sun is not up, the fact that it was up once is COMPLETELY unrelated to the fact it is not up now. However, I assume your intention is to imply that "the sun will come up." Sadly, that is ALSO wrong because HeroLab's dev has already announced that APG and the Bestiary will cost extra and separately therefore voiding the "will be added for free" which is the standard "sun will come up" for HeroLab if we look at it historically.

Quote:


No I'm not. I have quoted their price point for it several times.

No, I have. You keep going "look at these other products they are updating for free!"

Quote:
Now it's my turn to laugh. $10 for a PDF of a set of core rules vs $10 for... not the core rules. Not an update to core rules. For an entirely new book's worth of material integrated into a program. Talk about apples and oranges, you are comparing apples to meatloaf.

Are you then arguing that the Bestiary and APG are introducing rules that are not compatible with Pathfinder? Little did I know that new books in the Pathfinder series were incompatible with and not part of the Pathfinder version introduced in the Pathfinder core rules book. And never mind the fact that your sudden attempt to explain away why they are charging extra for these flies in the face of the fact you have repeatedly defended HeroLab by saying they have added extraneous products to other rule sets for free.

Quote:
No, I'm not, and you know I'm not.

Then stop being obtuse.

Quote:
I'm sure you know perfectly well that Paizo sells their PDFs for way less than other, similar sized (or bigger) companies sell comparable PDFs of their core books.

Indeed I do. And I can assure you those other companies are making a VERY tidy profit off doing so because it costs SIGNIFICANTLY less to sell the digital version than the print version.


ShinHakkaider wrote:


Yes, but the usage of the two products is different.

Completely irrelevant. I am paying as much or more for a subset of the material - that material which is relevant to and can be loaded to a game generator.


Cartigan wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:


Yes, but the usage of the two products is different.

Completely irrelevant. I am paying as much or more for a subset of the material - that material which is relevant to and can be loaded to a game generator.

Wait, so how you use the product is Irrelevant? So why are we talking about this because in the end when you boil it down it does come to how a product is used.

I pay for something like HL BECAUSE I dont want to spend a lot of time entering the material myself. Otherwise I'd just generate characters they way that I'd been doing them before with pencil and paper. Are you saying that the difference between me using a physical rulebook to generate a character and using something like Herolab or PCGen is irrelevant?

Because to me? It's REALLY NOT.


I'm saying the entire book is worth more than the rule set.

Sovereign Court

Scott Betts wrote:
See, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't charge money for it. It makes sense that it should cost something. But paying what is essentially 66% of the cost of the book itself all over again just to add its functionality to your suite of digital tools is, I think, an idea whose time has passed.

All things being equal, I agree. They are not equal here, though. To debate or argue as if they WERE equal (as Cartigan seems to need to do...) is an exercise in futility. The reason they are not equal is, as you point out quite elegantly...

Scott Betts wrote:
I imagine one of the reasons that HeroLab charges so much per additional data pack is that the amount of personal investment in doing the work to put one together is very high, and that cost is currently distributed among a relatively small customer base. If Paizo were to sign on and promote it to its own customers, undoubtedly HeroLab's customer base would increase, which would increase its revenue and allow it to lower the price of its product. That's one of the nice perks of producing software - your costs do not increase proportionally to your customer base.

Exactly. The big comparison here has been WotC - they can sell exponentially more copies than Lone Wolf Dev can, which means they can charge a lot less for each copy. They also have multiple streams of higher revenue, too; enough that they could take a loss on putting content in their generators if they had to.

What is important to me is that I know it would take me months to do what Lone Wolf Dev. does in weeks. The result of that work in Hero Lab saves me SO much prep time that it lets me concentrate my time on other things that I can't get done any other way. I would honestly pay 200% of the book cost for that; my free time is worth that much to me.


I think the comparing any of these to WOC in money terms is apples and oranges
WOC doesnt need to make that much of profit per unit because they sell on such a higher unit.
If Hero Labs sold on the WOC Unit level im sure they would be alot cheaper.

Sovereign Court

Cartigan wrote:

Yes, it is.

The core is included in the base cost of HeroLab.
And the other two will each cost as much as or more than it costs to buy the books digitally.
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?p=36578#post36578

Buying the PDF isn't the same as having the crunchy bits entered into a functioning program. It's not just a cut'n'paste job.

[/quote="Cartigan"]I was assuming you were referring to the GM material included in the core book. But what material is in THAT book that HeroLab could even add? From the description, it sounds like there arn't any rules in it so much as "DMing 101: What You Need to Know"

Ah, so you were wrong, my point is valid, and your answer is... to handwave it away and ignore it. Gotcha.

Cartigan wrote:

[/quote="Twowolves"]

I suppose that since the sun came up yesterday is completely irrelevant, since it's still dark today then?
Actually, yes. If the sun is not up, the fact that it was up once is COMPLETELY unrelated to the fact it is not up now. However, I assume your intention is to imply that "the sun will come up." Sadly, that is ALSO wrong because HeroLab's dev has already announced that APG and the Bestiary will cost extra and separately therefore voiding the "will be added for free" which is the standard "sun will come up" for HeroLab if we look at it historically.

I'm amazed at how hard you have to twist words and ignore points clearly spelled out to you in order to whine about a product you don't intend to buy. Lone Wolf charges for some data add-ons, but also gives away for free lots and lots of additional material. In the case of Pathfinder, the system is new and the workload is significant enough to warrant charging for adding the massive ammount of data and making it mesh with the current platform. Despite this, many features are still free (the APG beta test classes are a free update, as are all the humanoid monsters in the Bestiary), and much more will also be added for free.

By the way, you never did answer me: are you working for or in competition with Lone Wolf/Hero Lab for a product?

Cartman wrote:
Twowolves wrote:


No I'm not. I have quoted their price point for it several times.
No, I have. You keep going "look at these other products they are updating for free!"

Only because it's relevant?

Let me clue you in one more time: HL has already provided quite a bit of free material in support of Pathfinder over and above patches and bug fixes. Their track record for all their products shows a clear trend that indicates they will continue to do so in the future. They also operate under the business model of charging a nominal fee when a project requires a not-insignificant ammount of additional work. These are not mutually exclusive, and their announcement that the Bestiary and APG add ons will not be free in no way indicates that they will be charging additional money for every Pathfinder release. You have been shown evidence for this, with a specific example OF A PATHFINDER core book as well as over 2 dozen AP issues. Your assertation that they are going to charge for every new PRPG release is meritless.

Cartigan wrote:
Are you then arguing that the Bestiary and APG are introducing rules that are not compatible with Pathfinder? Little did I know that new books in the Pathfinder series were incompatible with and not part of the Pathfinder version introduced in the Pathfinder core rules book. And never mind the fact that your sudden attempt to explain away why they are charging extra for these flies in the face of the fact you have repeatedly defended HeroLab by saying they have added extraneous products to other rule sets for free.

You need to take a reading comprehension class. I have no idea how you get that I'm saying the Bestiary and APG aren't compatible with the core rulebook. Refer to my point above about their dual aproach to releasing additional materials. The APG has 6 new classes, some with their own "sub-systems", as well as new feats and new options for the existing core classes. I could enter these myself with HL's excellent editor, but I'd rather spend my time... not doing so. Because I recognize that it would be a mountain of work for me, I'm not going to complain about it being a mountain of work for them, and I'm willing to compensate them monitarily for their hard work.

Not sure what you expect, though.

So, Cartigan, do you work for someone who is or are you yourself personally in competition with Lone Wolf or Hero Lab for character/monster creation software, or any other similar projects? I have publicly stated that I am in no way affiliated with LW/HL, just a user of their product. How about you?


The model I would support, since I have DDI, but I still prefer a stand alone product, is to establish an entry price to support a core rule set, and give me the ability to add in additional content. If a new source book is released, I could pay for the content to be already added, or do it myself.

If there is a core update to the ruleset, lets say "advance rules", then I may pay a one time update for those extra features, then go back to my model above.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

People need to cool off. Really. 'Yes it is'/'No it isn't' is NOT a productive form of discussion and only serves to get tempers heated.


Uchawi wrote:

The model I would support, since I have DDI, but I still prefer a stand alone product, is to establish an entry price to support a core rule set, and give me the ability to add in additional content. If a new source book is released, I could pay for the content to be already added, or do it myself.

If there is a core update to the ruleset, lets say "advance rules", then I may pay a one time update for those extra features, then go back to my model above.

Thats a very similar model to what Hero Labs is doing


If assuming Paizo had their own software, I would have no problem with book related sets being released with books if done as a matter of course.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Two posts removed. Fight is over. Move along.


To get this back on track as a discussion....

I think Paizo should get with the developers of RPTools, which is free, to license a branded version. I would be willing to pay for this if it was developed into a PFRPG branded suite. That way those that don't want to pay, can still get the free versions & input any game info themselves. Heck, it would also make it where about the only person in a group that needed to buy the full suite is the GM. Players could just download the free tools.

Lone Wolf Development

First of all, thanks for all the kind words about Hero Lab. It's gratifying when people enjoy something you put a lot of effort into. :-)

I'm keenly interested in everyone's opinions on other categories of digital tools, such as mapping software, virtual table tops, GM aids, etc. I'm interested both from a personal perspective *and* from a business perspective. We've worked with the creators of d20Pro to provide smooth integration with their tool, and we're interested in doing the same with other tools that make sense. To that end, I'd like to know what everyone's favorites are, and why, so that we can identify the best tools to pursue integration with first.

Thanks in advance for the input!

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