Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Raise Dead and the Diamond Thing


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

1 to 50 of 1,165 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of the problems I have had with the whole raise dead thing was the diamond issue. While their spell component might require an equally expensive material component, they are usually vague or conceivably crafted. The diamond is neither. While it is a great method of controlling the amount of raisings possible, I still find it hard to story in, especially when they never come across them in adventures.

The same complaint could be mirrored in other nonmanufactured specific components, but they tend to be cheaper and less rare.

On the same note, I have never implemented the level reduction on a raise dead. I just could not wrap my mind around the concept storywise. I have always simply knocked them two CON, storied in the whole vague memories of the worlds beyond and moved on with the adventure.

Anyone else deal with either of those two difficulties and how?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Nobody pays attention to that kind of stuff. 1000gp and a raise dead and you're back in the action. :)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was discussing this issue with a few gaming buddies awhile back, after I, as the last act before passing the GM chair in our ongoing campaign on to another player, killed of an entire nation in a necromantic backlash. We were considering how the diamond marked would react, and skyrocketing prices would send the group on possible quests for diamonds. But the thing is, diamond values going up is not a problem, since any size diamond will do for the spells, as long as it has the right value.

Qadira

Well, 7,000gp, a week and a day in recovery (for the 2 castings of Restoration to relieve the negative levels) and you're back in the action. That, or 11,000gp and you're back almost immediately.

Or you can always make a new character, which is usually what we do in my group. We're also pretty eclectic on character concepts, so even if people didn't die they would eventually want to make new characters anyways.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Entropi wrote:
I was discussing this issue with a few gaming buddies awhile back, after I, as the last act before passing the GM chair in our ongoing campaign on to another player, killed of an entire nation in a necromantic backlash. We were considering how the diamond marked would react, and skyrocketing prices would send the group on possible quests for diamonds. But the thing is, diamond values going up is not a problem, since any size diamond will do for the spells, as long as it has the right value.

Ooo. Good point.

Now just imagine a cleric with a 5000 gp diamond about to cast the spell, and the market price drops sharply. >:)

Qadira

I wonder who decides exactly how much any given diamond is worth

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Abadar?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Now just imagine a cleric with a 5000 gp diamond about to cast the spell, and the market price drops sharply. >:)

lol

"Hmmm...he's usually walking by now". *poke* *poke*


>TriO
There's hardly a risk... The various resurrection spells destroy the stones, and thus the rarity augments constantly. Actually, I can't figure how there can still be diamonds left in the settings like FR where civilisation spans tens of thousands of years, with magical means to mine the earth dry.
Either every diamond is created by a conjurer minutes before the resurrection (is it allowed by the rules ?), either they would have to import it from the planes.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Well, if there's an Elemental Plane of Diamonds just a hop, skip, and a jump away... :)

Of course, you need adventurers to handle the locals protesting your mining operations.


An elemental plane of diamonds would certainly drop the prices... Imagine having to powder eight tons of diamond to raise your friend...

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Who says every diamond on the plane is quality? Hence why you gotta mine to find those rare expensive ones.

Plus the aforementioned locals making it dangerous, expensive work driving up the prices.

Osirion

Hunterofthedusk wrote:
I wonder who decides exactly how much any given diamond is worth

The way I see it is the GP value is the size or caret of the gem. It's just easier to say 1000gp or 750gp ruby or what have ya. Another abstract system in a game full of em is all.

Qadira

Well, there IS the elemental plane of earth, where there is possibly a limitless supply of all kinds of rare gemstones... But you need a supply of air and well-armed adventurers to defend against the denizens of the realm.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I've always thought of the diamonds (and gems) used for resurrection type spells (and for things like trap the soul) as having weird mystic properties that help serve as lenses to help focus and/or lure the spirits of the dead.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't know if it is still true in Pathfinder, but it always killed me how in v3.5 there were often spells that had expensive gem components that DIDN'T EXIST. Seriously, there were spells that required certain types of gems of a certain value, that didn't exist anywhere at all on the random gem table in the Treasure section of the book.

Kind of hard to get that high end undead monster or raised adventuring companion when you can't ever find onyx or a diamond valuable enough to cover the cost of the spell.

I've always said that such spells should say "onyx gems/diamonds worth Xgp" rather than a single gemstone that no one can ever find by the rules.

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I hate to throw such a grim tangent into the discussion, but one has to wonder about the possibility of Sierra Leone-style operations popping up because of the need for diamonds by the rich, powerful, and frequently assassinated.

Heck, the PCs could even unknowingly benefit from such practices before learning just how these diamonds are made so readily available.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm now imagining a plot where a CG rogue starts stealing valuable diamonds, then destroying them, just to make the cheaper ones more valuable and thus increase the usage of Raise Dead.

Hmm... this will have to go in the book I'm planning. (Working title is "Monsters and Markets".)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
I wonder who decides exactly how much any given diamond is worth
Publius Syrius wrote:
Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

In other words, it doesn't matter, mechanically, whether the diamond is 10 carats or 1/10th carat. It matters how much money the PCs had to spend to buy it.

It's a gamist thing.

Taldor

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
I've always thought of the diamonds (and gems) used for resurrection type spells (and for things like trap the soul) as having weird mystic properties that help serve as lenses to help focus and/or lure the spirits of the dead.

You and your imagination can take a hike, pal.

We're talkin' rules here.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The mystic properties would be an easier guess if the materials weren't defined by their market price... Now it's again some sort of money-powered magic.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm surprised nobody's referenced the conversation in the first panel.


The 1000 gp diamond is just build in for the reason that no character should be able to go around "raise dead, raise dead, raise dead", it has gaming rule character, not style character.
If your casters do not abuse raise dead, you could decide to allow them to ignore the 1000 gp.
If you want to use the diamond for style, change the 1000 gp to size and clarity of the diamond or the 4 C: see wikipedia and alter the price if the market is affected like in the posts above

Taldor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Right now I have my charecters traped in Ravenloft demiplane. I was very clear that resources were scarce. They have an exact count on all their diamonds and diamond dust and are watching it closely. They have enough for 1 raise and 2 or 3 restorations left. It is intersing seeing 10th level charecters so worried about death. Also the the group was buying 6 Sp for 1 Gp to pass along to a weapons smith to carft into arrowheads. So far the game has been a big resource drain but everyone is enjoying it.


I'd like a cheap 4th level cleric spell that lets you revive a character that died within one round per caster level.

When I was re-reading the Raise Dead description in the Core Rulebook, I also thought it would be nice if there was a See also section at the end of the description that lists related spells, so I don't have to remember the names of more powerful ways to raise dead, like Resurrection.


minkscooter wrote:
I'd like a cheap 4th level cleric spell that lets you revive a character that died within one round per caster level.

Well, there's breath of life in Core, and revenance and revivify in 3.5's Spell Compendium.


Zurai wrote:
minkscooter wrote:
I'd like a cheap 4th level cleric spell that lets you revive a character that died within one round per caster level.
Well, there's breath of life in Core, and revenance and revivify in 3.5's Spell Compendium.

Thanks! Case in point where a See Also section would have helped :)

It seems to me that one round (for breath of life) is too short. I might try three. I would also drop the part about functioning as a healing spell and add a component at something like 50gp.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Trivia:

Breath of life was designed as "cure deadly wounds", but the name was changed during development.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In that case, I wish it hadn't. I would be nice if my oracle new it automatically (wink, wink, jason) instead of having to spend a precious spell known!

Cheers.


Zurai wrote:

Trivia:

Breath of life was designed as "cure deadly wounds", but the name was changed during development.

Cool! I guess the previous name sounds enough like the other cure spells that you could easily overlook the ability to raise dead.

I think death is something like a status effect, but one that gets harder to lift as time passes. I don't mind if it can be done cheaply in the usual case (during or just after a battle), since the game is deadly and it needs a way to cope with a common occurrence. Like other status effects, it's easier to think about if it's not rolled into a cure spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Fred Ohm wrote:
Actually, I can't figure how there can still be diamonds left in the settings like FR where civilisation spans tens of thousands of years, with magical means to mine the earth dry.

If I recall correctly, there was at least one, maybe two gods who spread gems and minerals around underground (a dwarven one and a gnomish one) in the Forgotten Realms.


Mistwalker wrote:
If I recall correctly, there was at least one, maybe two gods who spread gems and minerals around underground (a dwarven one and a gnomish one) in the Forgotten Realms.

Dumathoin and Callarduran Smoothhands, respectively.


I feel educated.


Fred Ohm wrote:
I feel educated.

LOL

Don't ask me how I remembered those two. Too many dwarf and gnome characters in my past, I guess.


minkscooter wrote:
Zurai wrote:

Trivia:

Breath of life was designed as "cure deadly wounds", but the name was changed during development.

Cool! I guess the previous name sounds enough like the other cure spells that you could easily overlook the ability to raise dead.

I think death is something like a status effect, but one that gets harder to lift as time passes. I don't mind if it can be done cheaply in the usual case (during or just after a battle), since the game is deadly and it needs a way to cope with a common occurrence. Like other status effects, it's easier to think about if it's not rolled into a cure spell.

I would suggest that they want the game to stay deadly to a certain extent... after all you are less likely to go do something off the wall stupid if dying means you're either down for a while, not coming back, or it costs a substantial amount of money...

after all if getting back up from dead is so cheap and easy almost everyone would be doing it...

A.K.A. they don't want, "Don't worry Bob we still have a full stack of phoenix downs!"

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As far as I know, there is no way to get easy access to new diamonds. There is no plane of diamonds, and whether they are abundant on the elemental plane of earth is pure speculation. And even though a 20th lvl wizard manipulates incredible cosmic powers to change the world as we know it, turn dragons into newts and weave the vary fabric of reality, she's not even able to create a new 1gp diamond without expending matching material components.

In my Golarion, I would probably say that new diamonds come from Leng.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Diamonds are just crystaline carbon.
In RL we can make diamonds and I'm sure in a fanatsy world with Elementals etc just a quick summons away Mr Pointy-Hat would be able to get or make them.

As a point of interest on the supposed value of diamond the price is artificially inflated by DeBeers who only allow a certain number of stones onto the market at one time.

In an 19th centery account a visitor to an open cast diamond mine heard first a "plink, plink" sound as he went over a ridge to see a whole bunch of people on their hands and knees picking up uncut stones and dropping them in tin cans around their necks.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Hmmm, a fledgling kingdom cut off from it's most vital resource causing massive inflation and poverty that threatens to destroy the civilization from within.... thanks for a great campaign idea! This DM Salutes your question!

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:


A.K.A. they don't want, "Don't worry Bob we still have a full stack of phoenix downs!"

They sure as hell don't want that if they ever want to have a workable ghost train show up.

...bad enough that they can be grappled...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Frogboy wrote:
Nobody pays attention to that kind of stuff. 1000gp and a raise dead and you're back in the action. :)

Sadly, this is very true for most games I've seen. Makes one wonder why even bother with the component. Plus placing a gp price-tag on such a spell makes it seem like a McDonald's purchase.

Such a spell should be complex, with varied components, typically tied to the alignment of the person being raised or the caster. Imagine the difference between a LG cleric casting the spell versus CE - the LG raising could require a baby's tears, a saint's relic, and the feather from the wing of an angel. The CE raising could require the blood of a demon, the weapon of a murderer, and a distilled poison. Raise dead would be a big deal then rather than the gp-deduction it is now.

Personally, the best method I've seen for handling such issues is the "Cheating Death" rule from Fantasycraft. The player & GM work together to craft a circumstance for survival and there are mechanical measures to the "cost" of surviving. Much, much cooler, IMO.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In my campaign its not just about chucking gold and diamonds at the nearest Cleric and I think this is the crux of the problem.
My players have earned the right to be Raised, etc. by suck-ups to the church and asking if there is anything they can do for the church before they need that Raise Dead.

If in your campaign Clerics will willingly raise anyone with the cash no matter what then the McDonalds drive through issue is going to be there.

If however you DM your NPC Clerics as part of a church the problem is somewhat alleviated. They may not have the spell memorised or just feel that the person doesn't deserve to be raised...
"Sorry but when was the last time you worshipped here?"
"Sorry but as a follower of a pacifist deity I don't see the need of bringing another warrior back into this world"
You get the idea.


I've always treated Raise Dead spells and player death as a major thing in my games. It all depends on game style; if we're doing a dungeon-crawly hack and slash game, then Raises go around pretty frequently. If it's a more story intensive, more RP based game, the spells become much more infrequent. After all, if it's so easy for the players to stroll up to a random cleric and have a party member raised, why couldn't the bad guys do it to? Quests and story-arcs become nothing more than a war of inconveniences. Neither party truly defeats each other, they just use up the other side's resources.

When there's any sort of character death(PC or significant NPC) in my games, I try to detail out as best as possible what happened to the body, since that does have an effect on whether certain Raise spells work or not. I don't recall which one, but I know there's a Raise-type spell that doesn't work if the body is too mangled or in pieces.

My favorite way of playing it out is to use a level of uncertainty when the spell is cast. In Ravenloft 3e, for example, there's a Fort Save made by the deceased sa the spell is cast; DC=30 minus the clerics caster level. A failed save results in the character getting raised as an undead of the DM's choice...

Or, there's a new method I'm trying out soon in a new high-level game. Essentially, as a massive negative energy presence draws closer to the world, positive energy spells decrease in power, to the point of not working at all. Spoilered in case my players happen to read this:

Spoiler:

As Atropus draws closer to Oerth, ambient negative energy increases, making Raise spells les and less effective. At first, it simply takes more and more diamonds and other materials to raise. Eventually, the lower level spells begin raising the dead as undead of random types. Eventually, all resurrect-type spells cease to function, as Atropus has drawn close enough to the earth that his energies block even the gods interference. At this point, even all slain foes rise as undead, and even Cure spells lose effectiveness. So yeah, defeat Atropus or the world's gonna go all Romero-zombie!


Spacelard wrote:

In my campaign its not just about chucking gold and diamonds at the nearest Cleric and I think this is the crux of the problem.

My players have earned the right to be Raised, etc. by suck-ups to the church and asking if there is anything they can do for the church before they need that Raise Dead.

If in your campaign Clerics will willingly raise anyone with the cash no matter what then the McDonalds drive through issue is going to be there.

If however you DM your NPC Clerics as part of a church the problem is somewhat alleviated. They may not have the spell memorised or just feel that the person doesn't deserve to be raised...
"Sorry but when was the last time you worshipped here?"
"Sorry but as a follower of a pacifist deity I don't see the need of bringing another warrior back into this world"
You get the idea.

+1


We used to play no resurrection in our campaigns. Death was final and it was new character time. Our encounters are way too deadly now to do that though.

Jandrem wrote:
After all, if it's so easy for the players to stroll up to a random cleric and have a party member raised, why couldn't the bad guys do it to? Quests and story-arcs become nothing more than a war of inconveniences. Neither party truly defeats each other, they just use up the other side's resources.

Sounds like the comic book Mantra. That would make an interesting campaign. Horribly deadly but it doesn't matter too much because you just keep coming back in different body every time you die.


Abraham spalding wrote:
minkscooter wrote:
Zurai wrote:

Trivia:

Breath of life was designed as "cure deadly wounds", but the name was changed during development.

Cool! I guess the previous name sounds enough like the other cure spells that you could easily overlook the ability to raise dead.

I think death is something like a status effect, but one that gets harder to lift as time passes. I don't mind if it can be done cheaply in the usual case (during or just after a battle), since the game is deadly and it needs a way to cope with a common occurrence. Like other status effects, it's easier to think about if it's not rolled into a cure spell.

I would suggest that they want the game to stay deadly to a certain extent... after all you are less likely to go do something off the wall stupid if dying means you're either down for a while, not coming back, or it costs a substantial amount of money...

after all if getting back up from dead is so cheap and easy almost everyone would be doing it...

A.K.A. they don't want, "Don't worry Bob we still have a full stack of phoenix downs!"

I get what you're saying. I'm only suggesting that just because death is a big deal in real life doesn't mean it has to be in your game. Cheap raise dead is a very playable option if you don't need the finality of death for the story aspects of your game.


Ah well in that case I would suggest that lessening or eliminating the cost of raise dead would be fine... as long as you realize what you are getting into as a DM.

Minister of Propaganda, Super Genius Games

Frogboy wrote:

We used to play no resurrection in our campaigns. Death was final and it was new character time. Our encounters are way too deadly now to do that though.

Jandrem wrote:
After all, if it's so easy for the players to stroll up to a random cleric and have a party member raised, why couldn't the bad guys do it to? Quests and story-arcs become nothing more than a war of inconveniences. Neither party truly defeats each other, they just use up the other side's resources.
Sounds like the comic book Mantra. That would make an interesting campaign. Horribly deadly but it doesn't matter too much because you just keep coming back in different body every time you die.

The Vlad Taltos books by Steven Brust have that set up. It's easy to get raised unless you're killed in a specific way or with a soul destroying weapon.

Hyrum.

Contributor

17 people marked this as a favorite.

For people who can teleport across the world, literally travel to Hell and back, and conjure deadly fire and stone out of thin air, death is a trivial obstacle.

In terms of game math, the 5000gp cost for the spell also encourages metagaming, which is bad. See, if you have a party of 3 live PCs and one dead PC, they have two options:

1) Scrounge up 5000gp (either from the dead PC's stuff or from a group donation) and have the dead PC raised. Net result: party has 5000gp less than before and two more negative levels than before.
2) Leave the PC dead, divide his stuff among the PCs or sell it, have the dead PC's player bring in a new character (who has full gear for his level, and no negative levels). Net result: party has X more gp than before (where at worst X is half the expected wealth for a character of their level) and no extra negative levels.

In other words, it's better for the party to bring in a new PC than to resurrect the old one. Which is lame. In a "roleplaying" game that barely encourages roleplaying at all, costly PC death actively DIScourages roleplaying someone who's compassionate about a fallen ally, and ENcourages you to be a mercenary metagaming player who's only interested in the wealth and damage output of the group.

I don't like the expensive material component for a spell that is critical and necessary to the typical game experience, and I don't use it.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

For people who can teleport across the world, literally travel to Hell and back, and conjure deadly fire and stone out of thin air, death is a trivial obstacle.

In terms of game math, the 5000gp cost for the spell also encourages metagaming, which is bad. See, if you have a party of 3 live PCs and one dead PC, they have two options:

1) Scrounge up 5000gp (either from the dead PC's stuff or from a group donation) and have the dead PC raised. Net result: party has 5000gp less than before and two more negative levels than before.
2) Leave the PC dead, divide his stuff among the PCs or sell it, have the dead PC's player bring in a new character (who has full gear for his level, and no negative levels). Net result: party has X more gp than before (where at worst X is half the expected wealth for a character of their level) and no extra negative levels.

In other words, it's better for the party to bring in a new PC than to resurrect the old one. Which is lame. In a "roleplaying" game that barely encourages roleplaying at all, costly PC death actively DIScourages roleplaying someone who's compassionate about a fallen ally, and ENcourages you to be a mercenary metagaming player who's only interested in the wealth and damage output of the group.

I don't like the expensive material component for a spell that is critical and necessary to the typical game experience, and I don't use it.

Actually, with one of the groups I am running through the RotR AP, there are a few PCs who are related (two are brothers and a third is a cousin ... all dwarfs). One of the brothers has been raised twice so far ... the last time had the surviving player weighing whether his PC would shell out the cash or not for the raise and restoration spells. They did scrounge for the cash, but it also added to the roleplaying aspect with the survivor characters giving the fallen ones grief for dying, wondering why they raised them, reminding them how much they owe them, etc. etc.

Other Pcs who have fallen have been left dead, but ones where the connection has been strong with the other characters, they have been brought back, solely due to role-playing.

As to the mechanic of the spells, I do not require the characters to find the materials if they are having a temple or church perform the spell, it is simply worked into the "donation" requirement. Same thing for scrolls of the same spells. If they are looking to be able to cast the spells themselves, then yes, they need to pick up the materials (which is tricky outside of a major city).

1 to 50 of 1,165 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / Raise Dead and the Diamond Thing All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.