Question about Stealth vs. an opposed Perception check in combat


Rules Questions


My DM and I are arguing about what an "opposed" Perception check means in the Stealth description. My position is that an "opposed" Perception check is passive; that is, if a character wants to be stealthy in combat, then anyone who might be able to notice him gets an IMMEDIATE opposed Perception check to do so.

He thinks that an opposed check means that someone can try to be stealthy and they effectively succeed against you until it is your turn, at which point you can choose to expend a move action to Perceive them. Basically, his position is that the Stealth roll "sets" a DC which people can then oppose later if they want to.

Despite the fact that this leaves the door wide open to Shadowdancers, Assassins, etc. getting effectively unlimited sneak attacks while in combat, his argument is "those are the rules, go complain to Paizo."

So here I am. Can I get a ruling on this?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

By the rules he needs cover or concealment. The moment he leaves either he cannot use Stealth.

Stealth wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.


Right. In this case, a shadowdancer is sniping at us from the shadows. Since you can snipe and then re-stealth at a penalty (which the shadowdancer can do - hide in plain sight where there are shadows), does that mean that I have to wait until it's my turn to try and perceive him? Or do I get a chance to perceive him at the time he tries to re-stealth (my question is does "opposed" mean an immediate roll or do I have to wait and expend a move action to perceive him?)


Callistan wrote:
my question is does "opposed" mean an immediate roll or do I have to wait and expend a move action to perceive him?

You get an immediate roll to overcome his stealth, if that check fails however, you would then have the option of making a perception check to detect the shadowdancer as a move equivalent action on your turn.

From the PRD wrote:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.


Thank you very much, that's exactly my position.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Callistan wrote:

My DM and I are arguing about what an "opposed" Perception check means in the Stealth description. My position is that an "opposed" Perception check is passive; that is, if a character wants to be stealthy in combat, then anyone who might be able to notice him gets an IMMEDIATE opposed Perception check to do so.

He thinks that an opposed check means that someone can try to be stealthy and they effectively succeed against you until it is your turn, at which point you can choose to expend a move action to Perceive them. Basically, his position is that the Stealth roll "sets" a DC which people can then oppose later if they want to.

Despite the fact that this leaves the door wide open to Shadowdancers, Assassins, etc. getting effectively unlimited sneak attacks while in combat, his argument is "those are the rules, go complain to Paizo."

So here I am. Can I get a ruling on this?

Perception was created by smashing together the Listen, Spot and Search skills from 3E. What your GM is thinking of is "search", but I've always allowed "spot" checks whenever the characters would reasonably have a chance of, er, spotting something. I would say that it would reduce the utility of the Perception skill a lot to only allow active searching versus Stealthed sneaky types.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Agreed. Brodiggan Gale is inescapably correct.


Every Stealth check is opposed by a Perception check (assuming anyone is present to percieve the hiding creature).

The PSRD wrote:
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.
The PSRD wrote:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
The PSRD wrote:
Some skill checks are opposed by the target's skill check. When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target.

As you can see, above, using Stealth is a part of a move action, or a move action in and of itself. Each check is opposed by Perception. If you take a new move action to move while using Stealth, you roll, and your roll is opposed by Perception.

A shadowdancer can hide in shadow and snipe every round if he wants to (at the listed penalty for sniping), but each attempt to snipe requires a move action in which the shadowdancer uses Stealth, and each use of Stealth is opposed by a Perception check (which is reactive, and does not require an action on the observing character's part; see below).

The PSRD wrote:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.

Nowhere in the description of the Stealth skill does it say (or suggest) any of the ideas that your friend is proposing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Callistan wrote:
Or do I get a chance to perceive him at the time he tries to re-stealth (my question is does "opposed" mean an immediate roll or do I have to wait and expend a move action to perceive him?)

My advice if he doesn't let you roll Perception when the shadowdancer attacks is this. When it gets to your turn, tell your DM that the shadowdancer has to wait until HIS turn to roll his Stealth check against the Perception check you are rolling right now. See what he says.


Thanks again, everyone.

Sovereign Court

Callistan wrote:
Thanks again, everyone.

To the next game, wear a shirt that says "Not only do the rules say I'm right, but you're also a d*ck!"

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