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Call me weird, but this is possibly my favorite prestige class ever. Bard is my all time favorite class (go ahead, laugh, you are far from the first) and a prestige class that is basically just one huge callback to 1E bards is fantastic in my opinion. That, and the flavor is pretty nice. Bard/Druid hybrid just creates a very nice and rather unique aesthetic.
SO! On to conversion. First of all, I think the class should be available by around level 6 or 7 rather than ten, simply to increase the sense of the prestige class as your character's identity.
Secondly, I am aware of all the arguments made about not having full caster levels, splitting spellcasting focus, Mystic Theurge is awful, etc. I am of the camp that does not see these deficiencies as particularly huge issues, but the Fochlucan Lyrist as written in 3.5 is rather underpowered for Pathfinder.
What I would like to end up with is a preservation of the general concept: a prestige class that continues to increase spellcasting for both bard and druid and a scoche of their class abilities as well. I am considering adding a class feature that allows Lyrist levels to stack with Druid levels for the Nature Bond feature (animal companion or domain) to give the class a little "oomph". Also, upping the hit die to d10 to keep it in line with it's full BaB progression. Does anyone think this is too much? I am by no means a power gamer, I just want the class to be viable in Pathfinder.
Lastly, some sort of progressing class feature would be nice to give it a Pathfinder feel, but I coming up with nothing. Sound off! I'd love to hear your suggestions!
I am interested by that too.
I don't really have time to comment or give any suggestions right now, but i will try to chime in later on...
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I am interested by that too.
I don't really have time to comment or give any suggestions right now, but i will try to chime in later on...
Awesome! It's great to know someone else is intrigued, and I'd love to hear any thoughts you have on the subject!
C'mon, everybody else! Lemme know what you think!
First of all, it doesn't have full BAB. Neither did the original bard class...they fought as thieves, saved as clerics. After their Fighter levels got figured in, of course.
Secondly, it shouldn't dual advance bard or druid. It should advance one or the other. Now, bardic MUSIC it should advance. But remember that the original bard used druid spells instead of their own. A unique compromise might be allowing a Fochlucan to use the Druid spell list, and advance bardic casting instead.
Wildshaping was never a real part of the bard, i.e. never a class ability.
I really think the best compromise would simply to make a feat for bards that allowed access to the druidic spell list. Keep everything else in the bard class the same, but put some stiff reqs and pre-reqs into the feat itself, just like a PrC. Ranks in Knowledge (Nature) and Survival, KNowledge (nobility) and Local...these bards should have a noble/diplomatic focus more then entertainment.
They shouldn't have full BAB or a d10. That's fighter territory. The original 1E bard only got d6's...but they did get a lot of them.
If you really want to go with 1E flavor, require 2 Fighter Feats, +2d6 Sneak Attack in addition, something to almost force the multi-classing.
===Aelryinth
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I think the Fochlucan Lyrist should advance both Bardic and Druidic spellcasting. I would give it +3/4 BAB, Good Will, 1d8 HD, 6 Skill Points a level.
I would advance bardic music, wild empathy, and possibly nature bond. Not wildshape. Maybe emphasize the Wild Empathy aspect, giving it a boost if combined with Bardic Music (music soothes the savage breast--and beast), and maybe introduce other kinds of Empathies (Vermin Empathy, Fey Empathy, Plant Empathy, Humanoid Empathy (no need to sub-type it!!!), Magical Beast Empathy, Monstrous Humanoid Empathy, etc. etc.).
I would also emphasize the Diplomacy, Linguistics, and Knowledge aspect of the class.
I would drop the Evasion requirement, as that seemed added just to make it hard to qualify, not to meet flavor or fluff or crunch of the class.
Maybe combine Nature Bond and Bardic Music, so you're really good at singing to your pet bear or whatever.
Ummmm....so I don't know about this. I don't see any reason to tweak this class at all. It is the most powerful Prc's in 3.5. 2 good saves, full caster on 2 sides, +1 BAB, 6+int skills, and to top it all off you get one of the biggest druidic restrictions eliminated. I mean I guess if you just want to add a couple of little piddly fluffy things you could, but it is unnecessary. I have seen players (and have contemplated doing it myself) not progress as a bard caster, but instead progressed as a wizard or sorcerer, giving you 2 GOOD caster lines, full BAB, and all the rest. Who needs mystic theurge???
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First of all, it doesn't have full BAB. Neither did the original bard class...they fought as thieves, saved as clerics. After their Fighter levels got figured in, of course.
Secondly, it shouldn't dual advance bard or druid. It should advance one or the other. Now, bardic MUSIC it should advance. But remember that the original bard used druid spells instead of their own. A unique compromise might be allowing a Fochlucan to use the Druid spell list, and advance bardic casting instead.
Wildshaping was never a real part of the bard, i.e. never a class ability.
I really think the best compromise would simply to make a feat for bards that allowed access to the druidic spell list. Keep everything else in the bard class the same, but put some stiff reqs and pre-reqs into the feat itself, just like a PrC. Ranks in Knowledge (Nature) and Survival, KNowledge (nobility) and Local...these bards should have a noble/diplomatic focus more then entertainment.
They shouldn't have full BAB or a d10. That's fighter territory. The original 1E bard only got d6's...but they did get a lot of them.
If you really want to go with 1E flavor, require 2 Fighter Feats, +2d6 Sneak Attack in addition, something to almost force the multi-classing.
===Aelryinth
I'm pulling the prestige class from Complete Adventurer. It *does* have full base attack bonus. If there was an errata on this, I am not aware of it and apologize. To keep it with the "Pathfinder Standard", I'm going to either increase HD to d10 or reduce BaB to 3/4 and up the HD to only d8.
It's not an *exact* representation of 1E bards, I am aware of this. It does try to recreate the flavor of it, though. I'm also trying to make it comparable in power to other Pathfinder basic or prestige classes. Again, this will mean not a completely true representation of 1E bards, but something that tries for close to the feel. I agree wildshape does not belong, never intedeed to include it. I like the idea of the class stacking for Nature Bond effectiveness to give it a more "connected to nature" feel with it's class abilities.
I DO like your idea to change it to some sort of fighter/rogue/bard hybrid with removing the dual bard/druid spell progression and replacing it with a bard spell progression with the druid spell list. However, I'm also still somewhat attached to Complete Adventurer's characterization of the class as a bard/druid hybrid.
Thanks for your input!
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I think the Fochlucan Lyrist should advance both Bardic and Druidic spellcasting. I would give it +3/4 BAB, Good Will, 1d8 HD, 6 Skill Points a level.
I would advance bardic music, wild empathy, and possibly nature bond. Not wildshape. Maybe emphasize the Wild Empathy aspect, giving it a boost if combined with Bardic Music (music soothes the savage breast--and beast), and maybe introduce other kinds of Empathies (Vermin Empathy, Fey Empathy, Plant Empathy, Humanoid Empathy (no need to sub-type it!!!), Magical Beast Empathy, Monstrous Humanoid Empathy, etc. etc.).
I would also emphasize the Diplomacy, Linguistics, and Knowledge aspect of the class.
I would drop the Evasion requirement, as that seemed added just to make it hard to qualify, not to meet flavor or fluff or crunch of the class.
Maybe combine Nature Bond and Bardic Music, so you're really good at singing to your pet bear or whatever.
I really, *really* like this. I think you're really on the same wavelength with me on what I'm going for. It sounds pretty balanced so far, too. I'm dropping the evasion requirement as well, it is silly.
Thanks much! Any other thoughts or comments you have would be greatly appreciated!
Probably require 2nd level bard spells and 2nd level druid spells; that would meet the requirements at 7th level, so you could enter it at 8th level.
Probably require 7 ranks in Diplomacy, Knowledge nature, Knowledge (other), Linguistics (including Druidic, and maybe requiring Sylvan).
I don't know what feats to require. Maybe a skill focus or one of the +2/+2 feats? Scribe Scroll? Spell Penetration? Extend Spell? Improved Counterspell?
Maybe require +3 Wild Empathy and Inspire Competence?
I can see maybe requiring Improved Counterspell, and combine it somehow with Countersong Bardic Music and Linguistics somehow to make a potent counterspeller.
Too bad there aren't any core Pathfinder feats that emphasize teamwork, especially between the druid and her animal companion.
The FL should be pretty powerful, since it is MAD (Wis and Cha for spells, Int for skills, and Str, Dex, and Con for combat...maybe not TOO reliant on Str).
I was thinking it might be neat to combine Wild Empathy and Bardic Music in such a way that if you succeed, the animal is 1 extra step friendlier.
It might make a good "Interupter" class: Wild Empathy and Diplomacy to make hostiles friendly, Counterspelling to interrupt spellcasters, and maybe new uses of Bardic Music to interrupt the actions of combatants....like an uber Fascinate, or immediate action spells and effects like the Beguiler's Halt....maybe based on the Command spell? But Command is only for clerics. Hmmmm.....
The first and most important thing to do is drop the Evasion requirement.
...That's really the ONLY important bit, too. After that, prioritize what you want the class to do, and make it do just that. A more 1e style bard would have druid spells and wild empathy, but with bard skill points and music, I think. Personally, I would avoid adding bardic casting on top of that, and just make it a ten level class that increases bardic performance (both potency and number of rounds), wild empathy, druid casting, and has 3/4ths BAB along with the occasional "cool" ability. Then again, that would make it more of a casting druid who has some bardic abilities, instead of a more even mix of both. In the end, it's up to you...
...Just so long as you drop that stupid Evasion requirement ;)
Hey everyone, I posted my first pass at the prestige class in a new thread, please head over and check it out!
Much thanks to SmiloDan. You're suggestions really provided most of what I ended up using.
SWEET!