I apologize in advance if this seems to be a rudimentary question, but it's a bit confusing to me.
If PCs are aware of an enemy coming, and wish to ready attack actions, can they use those actions as soon as the foes come within range, even if their initiative falls later than that of the enemies?
Technically, the PCs readied the actions before initiative was even rolled. Then, once the enemies realized the PCs were there, we rolled INIT. So neither side is surprised.
Since the PCs already readied actions, do they basically get a free action regardless of their initiative count?
Thanks for any help!
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If the party heard the enemy coming, and readied their actions to attack the next group that came into sight, they would get their attacks before the enemy could act. This is usually represented by the 'surprise round'. Unless the enemy could see through walls, they would not know combat was about to start. They would be expecting it, but would not have a chance to react to the ambush because they do not know exactly where the party is or when they would attack.
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If the enemy did not detect the PCs prior to being within range of the PCs' readied actions, then yes, the readied action goes off first (this would be the surprise round).
If the enemy does detect the PCs before the PCs can attack, then they are aware of their enemies and there is no surprise round.
Now, there seems to be the following question in your post: If a player declares out-of-combat that he's readying an action to attack when an enemy comes within range (i.e. ambush during the surprise round), but the enemy detects him before this can happen (thus negating the surprise round), does the player still have that readied action (on the first round of normal combat) - in other words, if that enemy gets a higher initiative, then charges the character with the readied action - is there still a readied action there?
That, I don't have an answer for.
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It has always been my interpretation/understanding based on some Sage Advice columns as well as Rules of the Game articles on Wizards site back when 3.x was still alive, that as soon as at least one side is aware of the other the DM can call for (or roll secretly) initiative.
One example
If the PC's see (or are aware of) monsters coming some distance away, the DM has the players roll initiative and then enter the surprise round. The players state their actions, knowing of course that the enemies are still minutes away. The players perform their normal surprise round actions then move into normal initiative at which point they all move into hidden locations or load their bows and crossbows. The next round they ready them and declare triggering conditions.. ie, the archer says "as soon as the large giant with the black cloak passes that tree in the distance, I fire" and the wizard player says "as soon as the archer fires his bow I cast fireball" etc.
Now all the while the GM is still having the giants make Perception checks to see if they noticed the PC's taking cover in the distance. If not then the PC's maintain their readied actions until the triggering conditions are met.
The point being that you don't have to wait until the very last second to roll initiative. AS SOON AS AT LEAST ONE SIDE is aware of the other, roll initiative. In my book that can be as far in advance of the actual fight as it is..
That helps me make those rulings at least.
It has always been my interpretation/understanding based on some Sage Advice columns as well as Rules of the Game articles on Wizards site back when 3.x was still alive, that as soon as at least one side is aware of the other the DM can call for (or roll secretly) initiative.
One example
If the PC's see (or are aware of) monsters coming some distance away, the DM has the players roll initiative and then enter the surprise round. The players state their actions, knowing of course that the enemies are still minutes away. The players perform their normal surprise round actions then move into normal initiative at which point they all move into hidden locations or load their bows and crossbows. The next round they ready them and declare triggering conditions.. ie, the archer says "as soon as the large giant with the black cloak passes that tree in the distance, I fire" and the wizard player says "as soon as the archer fires his bow I cast fireball" etc.Now all the while the GM is still having the giants make Perception checks to see if they noticed the PC's taking cover in the distance. If not then the PC's maintain their readied actions until the triggering conditions are met.
The point being that you don't have to wait until the very last second to roll initiative. AS SOON AS AT LEAST ONE SIDE is aware of the other, roll initiative. In my book that can be as far in advance of the actual fight as it is..
That helps me make those rulings at least.
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When in doubt, roll initiative.
There's no such thing as a readied action outside of combat. If one side acts before the other is aware of their presence, then the first side gets a surprise round, otherwise, roll initiative normally. It is well within the bounds for the DM to give a small bonus to initiative to one side, however.
In the case of an ambush, the 'ambushees' should get a perception check to detect the 'ambushers'. If the check is successful, then no surprise round. Note that some members may spot the ambush and others may not. Those that spot the ambush act in the surprise round. Those that don't, don't. If everyone makes the perception check, then skip the surprise round and go directly to normal combat.
In the case of "I'm not hiding, but I shoot the next person who comes through the door," the DM must judge the situation. If the 'target' is blissfully unaware of any threat in the area, or too arrogant to care, then the 'shooter' should gain an automatic surprise round. If, on the other hand, the 'target' has reason to be cautious, then opposed perception rolls should determine if the 'shooter' gets a surprise round. If the 'shooter' wins, then, "surprise!" If the 'target' wins, then roll initiative normally.
However you decide to run it, allowing readied actions outside of combat is just asking for trouble.
Hope this helps.
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However you decide to run it, allowing readied actions outside of combat is just asking for trouble.
Agree. Just 'cause you ready an action for a certain trigger doesn't mean you see the trigger when it occurs. That's what determining surprise is all about. You may have a readied action, but if your opponent sees you before you see him, it's all for naught.
The problem with the "No readied actions outside of combat" interpretation is that it makes some boiler plate situations impossible.
Bad guy is holding a hostage with a knife pressed to their neck. We are both aware of each other, so there is no surprise round. Since he cannot ready an action, if I beat him on initiative, I can move 30 feet, provoke an AoO, and initiate a grapple with him before he can stab the hostage in the neck.
I have never had a problem with readied actions out of combat being abused. A player who wants to ready an action to attack needs to have their weapon ready, and have clear idea of who they want to attack. Players who try to ready actions with conditions that are too broad often end up causing friendly fire.
Corner cases like "knife to the throat" are best handled by DM's judgment. Unless there is a way to distract the baddie (feint, bluff, diplomacy, etc.) then a coup de grace attempt should be uninteruptable (sp?).
There are, after all, iconic scenes that go both ways. Sometimes the baddie pulls it off, but many times the baddie doesn't. Making those calls is what the DM is for.
I apologize in advance if this seems to be a rudimentary question, but it's a bit confusing to me.
If PCs are aware of an enemy coming, and wish to ready attack actions, can they use those actions as soon as the foes come within range, even if their initiative falls later than that of the enemies?
Technically, the PCs readied the actions before initiative was even rolled. Then, once the enemies realized the PCs were there, we rolled INIT. So neither side is surprised.
Since the PCs already readied actions, do they basically get a free action regardless of their initiative count?
Thanks for any help!
The moment you determine if the PCs are aware of an enemy coming, as GM, you should then determine if the enemy is aware of the PCs at that same moment. It appears that what you've done is determined that the PCs knew a foe was coming before it was seen by the PCs (probably by calling for Perception checks), then when the foe came into view (or range or what-have-you), you determined that the foe "realized the PCs were there so neither side was surprised." At the start of an encounter, it is easier to determine awareness for all sides involved at the same time to see who is surprised or not. It the case you presented above, when the PCs became aware of the enemy coming, the enemy in turn should have had the same opportunity to detect the PCs. Assuming they did not detect the PCs, the PCs would then be granted a surprise round, in which case they could ready their attack actions as soon as the enemy comes into range. Although I'm not so sure the PCs would actually need to ready actions in the surprise round. If the PCs say something to the effect of: "Oh, I ready an action to cast my spell when they get within range…", as GM, you start the surprise round when that occurs and allow the PCs their actions during the surprise round. After this surprise round, combat follows initiative order.
And I agree and expand upon others suggestions that allowing readied actions, or standard or any other actions outside of "combat" isn't normally a good idea. It leads to too much confusion IME.
I apologize in advance if this seems to be a rudimentary question, but it's a bit confusing to me.
If PCs are aware of an enemy coming, and wish to ready attack actions, can they use those actions as soon as the foes come within range, even if their initiative falls later than that of the enemies?
You can never ready an action outside of combat (i.e. before initiative has been rolled).
If the party is aware of the enemy, and the enemy is not aware of the party, then the party is entitled to a surprise round (in which they can attack or close to melee with the unaware enemies).
If both sides are aware of one another at the same time, initiative is rolled normally.
It's as simple as that.
Readying an action is tied inexorably to the initiative system, and is listed as a "special initiative action". To reiterate, you can never ready an action outside of combat. That's what initiative is for.