Can you sense motive book of 9 swords counters or elusive target?


Rules Questions


Are there official ways to get hints that you shouldn't be charging into combat? Can you sense motive that someone is set for a charge or a power attack?? etc

In 3 of the last 4 sessions of our rise of the runelords campaign I've been neutralized and forced to sit out of the game for considerable time. I've built a charging/pounce power attacker. I know the DM wants some battles to be epic,but not every battle needs to be epic and last for an hour or longer,and I feel like he should be throwing out some hints to prevent us from putting ourselves in a position where we will be knocked out of the combat over and over.

I come to our sessions to actually play the game and I hope to be involved in combats and roll dice...so I'm getting a little frustrated!

The DM is giving monsters feats and abilities to counter my pounce and I don't mind this,it's just that I would just rather that he ask me not to do it in the form of clues,rather than just punishing me for a character build he could have said no to at any time.My character has 0 AC after a pounce,and he is really a sitting duck after a pounce,so it's not like he should be hard to control with a DM who plans the battlefield or enemy positions ahead of time. We are nearing the end of the adventure(spires of xin shalast),but I'm not looking forward to the next few meetings since I'll probably be removed from combat again when we face Karzoug.

I was ray of exhausted &put in a maze spell vs Kahlib(karzougs apprentice),3 sessions ago,and I sat on the sidelines for the whole battle(2 hours).
The next session I pounced 2 lamia harridans,and the DM had given them elusive target,so they were both up after my attack,and I was wisdom drained to 0 and fell unconscious.I sat out the whole battle again vs 3 lamia harridans(2 hours). Our last session the champion of karzoug was given setting sun counters from the book of 9 swords,and when I charged he negated my attack,repositioned me in no mans land where I was thumped by the champion and a rune giant.I sat again for 2 hours. I know that Karzoug will have contingencies,so I won't be charging in that battle.

I just want to know for future games how to prevent this kind of thing with actual rules counters?? Are there any handy feats,skills,knowledge abilities worth investing in to get around the situation above.

My other question is..are Rune Giants supposed to be immune to the avasculate spell?? Our sorceror uses this spell,and when he hit a Rune Giant with the ray it was immune??


How is it you have a 0 AC after a pounce? The other thing to consider before anyone suggests feats etc is what books are allowed?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Best I can say is to start taking a round at the start to assess your opponents. There are no rules that I know of, except maybe a feat or two in Complete Warrior or Adventurer. It will be at the whim of your DM. You might try talking to him about it before the session instead of springing it on him mid-combat.


Ferylis wrote:

Are there official ways to get hints that you shouldn't be charging into combat? Can you sense motive that someone is set for a charge or a power attack?? etc

.
In 3 of the last 4 sessions of our rise of the runelords campaign I've been neutralized and forced to sit out of the game for considerable time. I've built a charging/pounce power attacker. I know the DM wants some battles to be epic,but not every battle needs to be epic and last for an hour or longer,and I feel like he should be throwing out some hints to prevent us from putting ourselves in a position where we will be knocked out of the combat over and over.
.
I come to our sessions to actually play the game and I hope to be involved in combats and roll dice...so I'm getting a little frustrated!
.
The DM is giving monsters feats and abilities to counter my pounce and I don't mind this,it's just that I would just rather that he ask me not to do it in the form of clues,rather than just punishing me for a character build he could have said no to at any time.My character has 0 AC after a pounce,and he is really a sitting duck after a pounce,so it's not like he should be hard to control with a DM who plans the battlefield or enemy positions ahead of time. We are nearing the end of the adventure(spires of xin shalast),but I'm not looking forward to the next few meetings since I'll probably be removed from combat again when we face Karzoug.
.
I was ray of exhausted &put in a maze spell vs Kahlib(karzougs apprentice),3 sessions ago,and I sat on the sidelines for the whole battle(2 hours).
The next session I pounced 2 lamia harridans,and the DM had given them elusive target,so they were both up after my attack,and I was wisdom drained to 0 and fell unconscious.I sat out the whole battle again vs 3 lamia harridans(2 hours). Our last session the champion of karzoug was given setting sun counters from the book of 9 swords,and when I charged he negated my attack,repositioned me in no mans land where I was thumped by the champion and a rune giant.I sat again for 2 hours. I know that Karzoug will have contingencies,so I won't be charging in that battle.
.
I just want to know for future games how to prevent this kind of thing with actual rules counters?? Are there any handy feats,skills,knowledge abilities worth investing in to get around the situation above.
.
My other question is..are Rune Giants supposed to be immune to the avasculate spell?? Our sorceror uses this spell,and when he hit a Rune Giant with the ray it was immune??

For your first two questions the answer is pretty much (see the following), no and no. What you are asking is basically tantamount to mind reading. As a melee pouncing type you probably don’t have access to those types of abilities (though epic Sense Motive DC 100 allows detection of surface thoughts which would get you what you are asking I guess).

As for being “neutralized” part of me says that is intelligent opponents, if they know what you are capable of they should have some sort of safeguards. I personally prefer when DM’s do that, it is more realistic and generally more enjoyable when you win as you worked for it instead of steam rolling things. Taking a monster that is written up and using its abilities to best effect is good gaming. That being said, taking and redesigning opponent’s abilities to specifically counter the same character is a poor practice (Assuming that is the case as you seem to be inferring) by the DM. There is a balance that some may not understand. I’d need to hear “the other side of it” to say one way or another though. Another side of the situation is that you are for all intents a one trick pony, if your character is for all intents and purposes incapable of being useful unless they are charging, that is a design flaw in the character unfortunately. A little versatility is a good thing.

Again he may not be punishing you, that may just be your take on the situation. Obviously it is frustrating to you and the only thing I can suggest is bringing that to the DM’s attention. Maybe next time you game when you have every one there, before starting ask the DM why he has been seemingly so harsh with your character. The reason I say everyone there is, if most of the rest of the group chime in with a “yeah, it has seemed like that” you have a good indicator of if it just your perception or not and two, if the DM hasn’t seen a problem with it but sees the rest of the group agreeing with you they might not just write it off as you being upset. It is a group game after all. From what I remember from that AP many of the monsters you mentioned have flight anyways right? You’d have been pretty much useless once they were flying (again back to the one trick pony issue) as a typical pouncing melee build (I remember the clock tower being particularly vicious against melee types in general).

The tactics you mention, the first combat (3 sessions ago) is sound tactics, it doesn’t sound like you were particularly singled out on that. The next one with the elusive target feat sounds like it is approaching the line of what is ok and what might be too much on the DM’s side, redoing feats for all the monsters of that type to have elusive target is possibly crossing the line. Switching feats occasionally for some flavor would be ok, all them getting the same feat if it only effects one in the group isn't. As for the last session, assuming the opponent was redesigned (as it would have had to have been to be using Bo9Ss) and it was done with all the groups characters in mind that doesn’t cross the line, you being a melee would have just been the one of the first to fall prey to it. Bo9S builds can have a schtick as well as versatility with not nearly as much of an impact on other abilities, usually that is why people complain it is “overpowered” in comparison to the base classes. If you are a core “melee” class and you are fighting a Bo9S class you are typically SOL with few exceptions. A well built Bo9S character can be a great opponent for a party, being able to mix it up in combat and having decent abilities to defend agains/resist/negate spells and abilities. Something a simple fighter would be unable to do solo, they would need some sort of back up for buffs or serious amounts of gear to compensate (which in turn typically ends up in the party coffers, which could be bad).

If you are playing a Bo9S class there is a skill that allows you to see if other people are trained in a style (AKA do they have Bo9S abilities too) but that still wouldn’t answer the questions you asked earlier. But no there are no rules in the game to allow you “officially” to know the type of information you are asking for.

As for the rune giant question, making a high enough knowledge check (which ever skill gives information on giants/humanoids/whatever type of creature rune giants are) would give a character that information. See if the characters in the group have the skill, if not maybe start asking around for a sage of some sort in a city and hire them to answer the question. That is something that should be able to be done in the game.


I just want to know for future games how to prevent this kind of thing with actual rules counters?? Are there any handy feats,skills,knowledge abilities worth investing in to get around the situation above....

The best prevention is not trying to make the uber-character that the DM feels the need to adjust his monsters/NPC's to.
The best means of balance is keeping in line with the other players in the group. If you don't stay in line with the other players, well then expect the DM to taylor encounters to neuter the Min-Maxing player from time to time. This way they do not dominate the game sessions by destroying all opponents.
If the DM gets out of hand, then communally the players will let him/her know by not playing at all, or by just complaining loudly.

D&D is a complex, yet simple situation of creating balance and enjoyment for all. It takes some push and pull on both sides of the fence.


Ferylis wrote:

Can you sense motive that someone is set for a charge

You should be able to see if someone is set for a charge; it's a standard action to do so, and the person would presumably brace for the charge he is expecting.

So, if you can see the person you would charge, you should be able to see if he is set to receive a charge or not.

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