One of these CRs is off...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


...but which is it! : /

So I was statting up some of the variant centipedes mentioned in the Bestiary for an adventure - specifically the Giant Whiptail Centipede below, and I happened to compare him to a monster I used the session before - the CR 4 Dire Boar.

Here's the centipede. Take a look.

GIANT WHIPTAIL CENTIPEDE CR 2
XP 600
N Huge vermin
Init +0; Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 8, flat-footed 15 (+7 natural, -2 size)
hp 39 (4d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +1, Will +1
Immune mind-affecting effects
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft. (climb 40 ft.)
Melee bite +8 (2d6+10 plus poison)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks poison
STATISTICS
Str 25, Dex 11, Con 20, Int –, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Attack +3; CMB +12; CMD 22 (can’t be tripped)
Skills Climb +15, Perception +4, Stealth +0; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +8 Stealth
ECOLOGY
Environment temperate or warm forest or underground
Organization solitary, pair, or colony (3-6)
Treasure none
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Poison (Ex) Bite – injury; save Fort DC 19; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d3 Dex damage; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

Comparing the two, we get:

hp - the boar has way more, with ferocity
AC - same, boar has one higher touch
attack bonus - same
damage - centipede has more, plus poison
saves - about the same (boar's combined saves are one higher), but that the centipede is immune to mind-affecting
speed - same, but the centipede can climb
other - boar has scent and better initiative, centipede has darkvision and reach

These two creatures are pretty even, with the centipede coming out on top. Is the boar really under-CRed or is the centipede really over-CRed? Or is my math just really wrong here?

Shadow Lodge

I don't build CRs for a living (I just complain about them), but my take is that the damage and poison probably threw the centipede up one higher. Poison is pretty nasty in Pathfinder, and they may have upped the entire CR simply under the assumption that curing it (or the ability damage it causes) will use more resources than the extra HP of the boar.

That's my guess at least.


I thought he was saying the centipede's CR was too low?


MisterSlanky wrote:
Poison is pretty nasty in Pathfinder, and they may have upped the entire CR simply under the assumption that curing it (or the ability damage it causes) will use more resources than the extra HP of the boar.

But their CRs aren't equal, the boar's is TWO higher. If the centipede is roughly the same, stat-wise, with a few advantages over the boar, plus poison, it should have a higher CR, not a lower one.

It's clear that one of them is off, I'm just not sure which one or by how much.


Your stats are off.

You basically give the centipede 4d8 as HD and apply the giant template twice.

That changes the attributes to Str 17, Dex 11, Con 20, the HD to 4d8, and the base damage for the bite to 2d6.

The Attack changes to +4(+3 BAB + 3 Str -2 Size) for 2d6+4 plus poison (which remains the same, except for the DC, which changes to 19)

AC is 16 (+8 natural -2 size), Touch 8, Flat-footed 16.

Saves are Fort +9, Ref +1, Will +1.

HD 4d8+20 (38 HP)

Still, looking at the monster statistics by CR table, some of the centipede's values are high:

  • HP are more in line with CR 4
  • AC is appropriate for CR 3.5
  • Poison DC is deadly, more appropriate for CR 10 (!!!)

    On the other hand, attack and damage are in line with CR 2.

    I'd probably boost this thing to CR 3, get rid of the racial bonus to the poison DC, adjust the ability scores downward (Have con be 18 instead) and decrease natural armour by 1.

    That gives it 34 HP, AC 15, and a poison DC of 16. All in all more manageable.


  • KaeYoss wrote:

    Your stats are off.

    You basically give the centipede 4d8 as HD and apply the giant template twice.

    I want you to be right, but I'm pretty confident you aren't.

    Applying the giant template is not the same as adding racial hit die. A template is a template. Adding hit die has it's own rules, and with regards to increases to racial hit die, the Bestiary has it's own table for what happens to a creature when it changes size.

    [quote=The Bestiary pg. 296
    Size changes from Medium to Large give +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor.
    Size changes from Large to Huge give +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 natural armor.

    With 4 Hit Dice, that works out to:

    38 hp ([4.5 x4] + 20 from Con]
    +8 bite (+3 BAB, +7 Str, -2 size)
    2d6+10 damage (1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6, + [Str x1.5])
    15 AC (no Dex, +7 natural, -2 size)

    The Giant template does work out to a different set of stats than legitimately increasing a monster's size as you add Hit Die does, though. I wonder if this is intentional, or if one of the tables (the one referenced above, or the formula in the Giant template) is wrong...


    In my opinion, I believe the table in the bestiary under the centipede entry is wrong and the Whiptail Centipede should be CR 4...maybe 5. The example of the Dire Boar is a good case where you have to compare your end results to other monsters and make the call as the DM.

    The CRs and HD in the centipede table are straight from 3.5 (at least all the numbers match up--I don't know for sure that was the source), despite the fact that the bestiary has its own advancement/creation system now.

    In 3.5 there was a table in the Monster creation section of MMI that listed things like ... adding 4HD to a vermin only increases it's CR by 1.

    There were also a few more guidleines about monsters with special abilities and how that affected CR. I'd love to see that kind of thing added to the PF rules. The current monster creation table for PF lists a CR 2 vermin as having 3HD.

    Adding Size modifiers alone makes the Centipede CR 2--or better according to the bestiary Monster Advancement system.

    I agree that changing sizes is different from adding the Giant templates, so that grants:
    +16 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, +5 Nat. Armor

    It's also interesting to note that under the monster creation rules, it lists the minimum CR for a huge creature as CR 4. Again, the centipede might be the exception, but it sure makes generating monster stats difficult unless you decide that the bestiary is right and it was the designer's intention to make a huge monster with 4d8 racial HD to be a CR 2 monster.

    Finally, for anyone interested there is a great Pathfinder Monster Advancer tool at: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer.


    x93edwards wrote:

    Finally, for anyone interested there is a great Pathfinder Monster Advancer tool at: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer.

    Sad panda moment . . . I tried that out in IE, Firefox, and Chrome, and it didn't work on any of them.

    Paizo Employee Creative Director

    We actually stat up a giant whiptail centipede in Pathfinder #31, and it WAS a bit tough to adhere to its CR and expected changes for size while sticking with the table in the Bestiary. In the end, we decided to simply give the fully-statted up giant whiptail centipede a CR 3, which is different than its CR listed in the Bestiary's table by 1 point.

    The stats for the one in Kingmaker #1 and what you've built above are pretty close, although the one in Kingmaker has a tail slap attack that works kind of like a whip (1d3 nonlethal plus trip) and an ability called Compact (which lets it squeeze into small areas as if it were a Medium creature).

    Bestiary 2 will stat up several more giant vermin like this, and in most cases they'll hopefully be in line with the tables themselves.


    KnightErrantJR wrote:
    x93edwards wrote:

    Finally, for anyone interested there is a great Pathfinder Monster Advancer tool at: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer.

    Sad panda moment . . . I tried that out in IE, Firefox, and Chrome, and it didn't work on any of them.

    Hmm.. I personally hadn't tried the tool in other browsers/OS's until you said something.

    Here are my results:
    Windows Vista Ultimate 32-bit (Firefox 3.6, IE 7.06) - Works
    Chrome 4.0.24 - Doesn't work

    Mac-mini OS X Version 10.5.8
    Firefox 3.5.7 - Works
    Safari 4.0.4 - Doesn't work

    Windows XP Professional SP 3
    IE 7.0.57 - Works
    Firefox 3.54 - Works

    Iphone 3.1.2
    Safari - Doesn't work

    I'll send a message to the developer to see what we can. Thanks for the response.


    James Jacobs wrote:

    We actually stat up a giant whiptail centipede in Pathfinder #31, and it WAS a bit tough to adhere to its CR and expected changes for size while sticking with the table in the Bestiary. In the end, we decided to simply give the fully-statted up giant whiptail centipede a CR 3, which is different than its CR listed in the Bestiary's table by 1 point.

    Thanks for the response James--much appreciated.


    Huh, was not expecting help from the Devs on something like this.

    God I love these boards.

    Devs actually admit mistakes, and then go out of their way to help.

    Thanks to everyone who contributed.

    Liberty's Edge

    x93edwards wrote:


    Finally, for anyone interested there is a great Pathfinder Monster Advancer tool at: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer.

    Wow, that looks pretty slick. Thanks for the link!

    Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

    Worked for me:

    Firefox 2.0 under Fedora Core 6 (Linux)

    Firefox 3.5 under Windows XP Pro

    Don't care about IE, personally :)


    Rake wrote:


    I want you to be right, but I'm pretty confident you aren't.

    Your confidence stems from the oversight of a very important rule: These rules aren't set in stone.

    For example, there is this:

    "As a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule if warranted by the individual creature or situation."

    I say the 50% rule is meant more for critters that already have several HD, because otherwise you'd have to increase the size of every 1hd creature twice with the first two extra HD.

    The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

    James Jacobs wrote:
    We actually stat up a giant whiptail centipede in Pathfinder #31, and it WAS a bit tough to adhere to its CR and expected changes for size while sticking with the table in the Bestiary.

    Question on that PF #31 stat block...why is the DC for its poison only 14? Going by the centipede entry I get a poison DC of 19 (10 + 2 for HD + 5 for Con + 2 racial), rather than 14. Just looking for clarification if this was an intentional deviation from the poison formula, or an oversight.

    Paizo Employee Creative Director

    KaeYoss wrote:
    Rake wrote:


    I want you to be right, but I'm pretty confident you aren't.

    Your confidence stems from the oversight of a very important rule: These rules aren't set in stone.

    For example, there is this:

    "As a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule if warranted by the individual creature or situation."

    I say the 50% rule is meant more for critters that already have several HD, because otherwise you'd have to increase the size of every 1hd creature twice with the first two extra HD.

    Correct. Since the vast majority of monsters have more than 1 HD, it usually works. But since some DO have 1 HD, we said "as a general rule."

    In the end, it's up to you as the GM to decide when a monster changes size. You can even change its size without altering its HD at all if you want.

    Paizo Employee Creative Director

    Russ Taylor wrote:
    Question on that PF #31 stat block...why is the DC for its poison only 14? Going by the centipede entry I get a poison DC of 19 (10 + 2 for HD + 5 for Con + 2 racial), rather than 14. Just looking for clarification if this was an intentional deviation from the poison formula, or an oversight.

    Because the original stat block for the Giant Whiptail Centipede was still trying to adhere to the "guestimate" table on page 43 of the Bestiary, and in that first incarnation the centipede had a DC 14 save. It should be a DC 17 save; Giant Whiptail Centipedes don't gain a racial bonus to their poison save DCs.

    So basically, yet another error. One I hope won't be replicated when the whiptail shows up in Bestairy II, obviously.

    The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

    Thanks for the info. Dropping the racial bonuses on advanced vermin definitely helps keep them closer to the expected special attack save DCs.

    I've been toying with advancing creatures these past few weeks while I convert older adventures, and it's impressive how often advancing creatures Pathfinder style keeps them closely in line with the expected progressions for hit points, AC, damage, and the like. The advancement system works quite a bit better than the core 3.5E system it was derived from, nice bit of design work there!

    I also really like that the advanced vermin have more interesting names than "huge monstrous centipede", and room for special attacks that vary at different sizes. A large black widow or a gargantuan tarantula is much more interesting than an unspecified monstrous spider.

    The Bestiary is a heck of gem, I can't wait to see some of the inevitable monster gaps get filled in with Bestiary II.

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