Knight who says Neek! |
One thing I've noticed with most PrC's is that they work their best when you are starting as a high level character. If you work your way from 1st to PrC then you tend to fall behind the pack. If you are starting as a 10th level you can cherry pick feats better (some only pay off as preq's for other feats)and can optimize the magic items to boost them up--like wands with the right rays for using with sneak attack.
Also the requirements are high with AT. If you could lower them so that say a Wizard 2/Rogue 2 would qualify then you wouldn't suffer as much in the transition.
I love PrC's for the flavor, but even experienced players don't build characters so well sometimes, and any weakness becomes glaring.
GM's also need to respond better to players who want skill-masters not door kickers. Then the AT becomes as important as that Barbarian/Fighter who acts as the living meat cleaver/
Personally I think the best solution for the At is make it a core class:
Take a bard, keep the bard's skills, BAB, saves, and spells per day.
Then get rid of the bard's class features and give him the following:
Sneak Attack at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 11th, and 14th levels, and Impromptu sneak attack +1/day at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18 levels.
Ranged Legerdemain +1/day at 2nd, 7th, 10th, and at will at 20th level.
tricky spells +1/day at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th, and Invisible thief at 13th, and surprise spells at 17th.
Tanis |
if you get 3 rays (@11th lvl) you do 12d6*3. that's an average of 44 dmg per ray (12+72/2). That's 132 dmg on average.
That's broken.
Sorry, i should have expounded my point fully. I forgot to mention that each ray (44 dmg average) if applying sneak attack as well, is what is broken.
Ok, let's break it down:
Rogue 1/Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 1/ Arcane Trickster 4 = 11th lvl.
Rogue 1 - 1d6 SA
U/Seer 1- 1d6 SA
Assassin's Stance (feat from ToB) - 2d6 SA
A/Trickster - 2d6 SA
Rogue's Vest - 1d6 SA
So we're looking at 7d6 sneak attack, so now we do a scorching ray while invisible:
ya ready for this?
each ray does on average 44 hp + 25 from the scorching ray...*3=207 hp...in one round. that's not broken?
Senevri |
each ray does on average 44 hp + 25 from the scorching ray...*3=207 hp...in one round. that's not broken?
Not at level 20. At level 11, sure.
It's moderately powerful blasting, certainly.
Not as bad as multiple spell-storing weapons.
Now, put in split ray scorchers into the greater spell matrix for 12 beams, for 48d6+84d6.... :)
Then again, any wizard with time stop and delayed blast fireball can deal 100d6 damage, if they're so inclined.
Cartigan |
Tanis wrote:if you get 3 rays (@11th lvl) you do 12d6*3. that's an average of 44 dmg per ray (12+72/2). That's 132 dmg on average.
That's broken.
Sorry, i should have expounded my point fully. I forgot to mention that each ray (44 dmg average) if applying sneak attack as well, is what is broken.
Ok, let's break it down:
Rogue 1/Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 1/ Arcane Trickster 4 = 11th lvl.
Rogue 1 - 1d6 SA
U/Seer 1- 1d6 SA
Assassin's Stance (feat from ToB) - 2d6 SA
A/Trickster - 2d6 SA
Rogue's Vest - 1d6 SASo we're looking at 7d6 sneak attack, so now we do a scorching ray while invisible:
ya ready for this?
each ray does on average 44 hp + 25 from the scorching ray...*3=207 hp...in one round. that's not broken?
Or you could just use a bow. In short, no it isn't. That is in fact the point.
Galnörag |
Matrixryu wrote:
I've seen a pretty good pathfinder conversion for the ninja here: http://www.dorkistan.com/PFRPG/classes/ninja.htmHere's the link.
Looks much improved, at first glance.
At first glance I would say you could make a ninja out of a rogue by offering a new set of rogue tricks that mimic ninja like abilities. Most of the ninja secrets are rogue tricks, so just expand the core class with new, balanced, ninja-like abilities.
Tanis |
Or you could just use a bow. In short, no it isn't. That is in fact the point.
There are many differences between scorching ray and if you used a bow,
1) Bow isn't a touch attack.
2) Your BAB isn't high enough to get more than 2 attacks at 11th lvl, and your 2nd prob. won't hit.
3) Bow average dmg is 4. As opposed to 44.
4) Once your first attack hits, your invisibility/stealth wears off.
I'm not saying you can't use sneak attack with ranged touch spells (including disintegrate among others), i'm just saying it should only apply to the first attack in a simultaneous volley.
@ Senevri-At 20th lvl it's worse! Like you said, we can apply time stop/ split ray/ quicken/ any other metamagic feat to this.
20th lvl wizard=game over.
TriOmegaZero |
Wow, people really want to force rogues into melee here. I can't speak from experience, but didn't rogues used to just get one backstab at the start of the battle and then spent the rest of the combat trying not to die? Why don't we relegate them back to that while we're at it?
pjackson |
So we're looking at 7d6 sneak attack, so now we do a scorching ray while invisible:
ya ready for this?
each ray does on average 44 hp + 25 from the scorching ray...*3=207 hp...in one round. that's not broken?
In 3.5 it would not work like that - Scorching Ray is given as an example of a volley attack where only the first ray gets to do precision damage in the Rules Compendium.
Is Pathfinder different?Benicio Del Espada |
Tanis wrote:So we're looking at 7d6 sneak attack, so now we do a scorching ray while invisible:
ya ready for this?
each ray does on average 44 hp + 25 from the scorching ray...*3=207 hp...in one round. that's not broken?
In 3.5 it would not work like that - Scorching Ray is given as an example of a volley attack where only the first ray gets to do precision damage in the Rules Compendium.
Is Pathfinder different?
Not that I'm aware of. Maybe Jason will come along with an official ruling. Until then, I'll assume that's the deal.
As for damage, 4d6+7d6= 38.5 average damage. If we allow SA on all 3 rays, that's 115.5 average, compared to 66.5 if it's allowed on just one ray (and they all hit, of course).
How much damage would a 16th level bow specialist do?
Benicio Del Espada |
lots and lots Benico, go look up the archer fighter -- level 16 he can (and will) drop a balor in one round, without any real contest.
Currently there isn't such a thing as a "volley" rule in pathfinder. Yes you can bring it in from 3.5 but that's bringing it in not standard core.
A bow-specialized rogue would get some pretty mean damage, too. I'm inclined to agree that the "volley" thing should go away. The trickster has a tough road to get to that level. Let him have his cake! :D
james maissen |
A bow-specialized rogue would get some pretty mean damage, too. I'm inclined to agree that the "volley" thing should go away. The trickster has a tough road to get to that level. Let him have his cake! :D
The need for the volley rules came about in 3.0 with Tomb & Blood when the orb spells would shoot out 1 orb per level. Each would deal like 1d6 or so damage (I don't have T&B with me at the moment) and have its own touch attack.
Thus a rogue with say 7d6 sneak would deal 8x the damage than was otherwise the norm with this spell! I think that say 8d6 per LEVEL is too high for a 4th level spell!
Personally you can deal decent damage as a rogue via spells and I don't think scorching ray needs to be increased in effectiveness in this manor. You gain the advantage via making touch attacks and dealing elemental damage.
There are problems with the Arcane Trickster class, but that starts with the designers trying to make it some sort of lukewarm mu/thf.
Design-wise it seems reasonable that such gestalt characters be about 2-3 levels behind their 'pure class' counterparts when trying to fill such a role. That seems to be a reasonable status quo for most of the reasonable levels in D&D (I can't & won't speak towards near epic levels as I have no experience there) and should be the goal of these type of classes when they must do so.
In 3.5 the AT failed miserably to do this. In PF the AT is improved, but between extra 'essential' 3.5 feats being missing, it simply isn't improved enough when compared to the leg up that the single classes received. In 3.5 should someone wish to be an AT they routinely elected to go with Unseen Seer as that class tended to deliver something closer to the AT that they desired than the official AT in the DMG. I think that the PF AT (and in fact most of the PrCs there) need the same loving care that the base classes received.
The goal was not to penalize the PrCs simply to make the single classes viable. They did such a great job with the base classes, that the PrCs need some looking at, especially the ones that weren't all that viable before the base classes were augmented.
-James
Thalin |
I think Knight's idea is actually really good; not overpowered, not underpowered; plenty of reasons to take rogue over it, plenty of reasons to take it over rogue. Obviously you lose rogue tricks and 2 skill points, and have slower sneak attack progression; but have spells, an alternative class for trap sense, and a base class you can "specialize".
That would actually work as a Pathfinder class. Running Shattered City right now, and can safely say the party would get wrecked without their rogue (in fact, he was down for a few hours to strength drain and the party took massive trap damage)... but I wish there was a "more balanced" Beguiler that would be an alternative to thieves for this roll.
I wish Prestige would, in fact, go away for full 20-level "gestalted" classes that are relatively close to the ideals the class is trying to make.
Tanis |
lots and lots Benico, go look up the archer fighter -- level 16 he can (and will) drop a balor in one round, without any real contest.
Please explain, that seems pretty whack. How many attacks do they have -that have a reasonable chance of hitting AC 36?
Enough to do 360 points of damage? Really?
And doing 'Surprise Spells' you'd have to be min. 16th lvl. At that lvl it's fair enough.
Abraham spalding |
Tanis if I wanted to bother rehashing old stuff that has already been done I wouldn't have said to go search the archives for the archer fighter threads. I believe if you look up "DPR Olympics" you'll find a thread with an archer fighter stated up.
Or just stat it up yourself:
Fighter 16, point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, yada yada yada, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization... yada yada yada.
Weapon training fully in the long bows and give him a +5 longbow and boots of haste. His big stats will be strength and dex of course and he'll want mithral full plate too.
Benicio Del Espada |
Ultimately the whole idea that came out in 3.x that you could patch the multi-class system to work by making semi-gestalt prestige classes is flawed. Pathfinder made it slightly better but ultimately it falls short.
If it's a 20 level class then by definition it's not a prestige class.
The class falls short while it qualifies for the PrC. At higher levels, it may be the only class that gets good use out of damage spells.
Adding sneak attack to acid splash makes it a spell worth using. Take surprise rogue as your rogue talent, and get a touch attack with no save and no SR, to a single target before anyone can do anything about it.
The AT has a lot of skills, and never enough points. Skills let you do things without having to cast spells, so I think the class has a niche.
My R1/W1 just sneaked and killed a troublesome zombie in one round, spent his spells on a fighter to kill an incorporeal creature (along with magic missile), and soloed a bat swarm with color spray, with a spell from his bonded object.
Versatility is underrated. No one else in our party could have done all that.
Tilnar |
Let's not forget that if he can get his targets flat footed at 10th level he gets sneak attack on his AoE spells too...
Yeah, I shuddered when I read that capstone because it works on AoE. So you get the surprise round, and suddently it's sneak attack Maximized Freezing Sphere or Chain Lightning. (Tell me it's not worth the meta-feat to do that?)
0gre |
Abraham spalding wrote:Let's not forget that if he can get his targets flat footed at 10th level he gets sneak attack on his AoE spells too...Yeah, I shuddered when I read that capstone because it works on AoE. So you get the surprise round, and suddently it's sneak attack Maximized Freezing Sphere or Chain Lightning. (Tell me it's not worth the meta-feat to do that?)
This really isn't as good as you think. When you compare it to a wizard or sorcerer of comparable level the sorcerer can do just as much damage simply by quickening a second spell. Or for that matter they have higher level spell slots and could just use a more powerful spell or empower a spell the trickster is casting.
Yes it's GOOD, it's great actually, but ultimately it is level appropriate, not broken.
Benicio Del Espada |
I mean, 17th level is the lowest possible level you can capstone a trickster; 18th without a level of assassin in there. So no, it's not so insane. Your're competing with 9th level spells.
Assassin requires 5 ranks of stealth. You can't take it until 6th level.
Wizards can cap at 16th, sorcerers or bards at 17th. A trickster wizard could end up with 9th level spells, but a sorcerer wouldn't.Abraham spalding |
Tilnar wrote:Abraham spalding wrote:Let's not forget that if he can get his targets flat footed at 10th level he gets sneak attack on his AoE spells too...Yeah, I shuddered when I read that capstone because it works on AoE. So you get the surprise round, and suddently it's sneak attack Maximized Freezing Sphere or Chain Lightning. (Tell me it's not worth the meta-feat to do that?)This really isn't as good as you think. When you compare it to a wizard or sorcerer of comparable level the sorcerer can do just as much damage simply by quickening a second spell. Or for that matter they have higher level spell slots and could just use a more powerful spell or empower a spell the trickster is casting.
Yes it's GOOD, it's great actually, but ultimately it is level appropriate, not broken.
It is possible that the AT could quicken another spell too and get his sneak attack damage on another spell as well.
Level 17 (since we are talking of the capstone) means he counts as a level 14 caster meaning he could freezing sphere, quicken fireball for example and have 23d6 cold, 19d6 fire... it could be an empowered spell first then the quicken spell too.
Now I'm not pointing this out to say it's broken (because it isn't) just that it is an option...
Truthfully if he has a rod of quicken spell (normal version) he could have two empowered something spells going out on the surprise round (a rod of quicken spell would be within wealth by level... even a greater one could be possible at those levels).
Torinath |
I would like to add my 2cp.
I really like the idea of an Arcane Trickster and I played one from lvl 3-5 when he was mauled by a tiger. I think a lot of people in this thread are overlooking one key flaw in the AT. Until they are lvl 16 they have to be within 30' of their target. In other words they have to be where no Magic User in their right mind wants to be, in the thick of it. Outside of combat he was a ton of fun. In combat, it was always a struggle. Especially, considering how unforgiving ranged sneak attacking is. (It can be even worse depending upon how stealth and sneak attack rules are interpreted)
As far as Suprise Spells being overpowered, you have to understand there is a caveat there that regular casters don't have. The target must be flat-footed. While normal Magic-Users blast away the AT has to set-up for his attacks. I am still intrigued by the AT and would like to give it another try at possibly a higher lvl. But my first experience was not a very good one.
Torinath |
Torinath not to be rude but it sounds like your build was poor.
Spell casters have lots of spells that turn being in melee from "OMG I"M GOING TO DIE!!!11!!1!!1!" to "Meh why are you wasting your time?"
Most of those have been covered in this thread already and the means to get sneak attack have already been covered too.
I thought the OP was asking for in game experiences from people playing an AT, so I decided to share.
It is rather rude to infer that my build was poor when I simply stated things one should expect to encounter when playing an AT(not using rosey glasses). I read the first couple pages and never noticed a reference to the fact that you had to be within 30' of your target so I wanted to point it out.
I know there are spells that make wading into melee much easier(but you still have low HP, even with False Life), and they don't last all day so you have to spend your first rounds buffing in the lower levels while everyone else is entrenched in combat. Even played as a CC and grease your 10'x10' square nothing guarantees the next round your targets are going to be sneak attack bait(DC 10 acrobatics isn't that hard and it is only 10'X10').
How would you build a 3wiz/2rog or 2wiz/3rog that completely invalidates my above points? (because I am not seeing it.)
Regardless, from everything I have read you have to be within 30' to sneak attack which is an uncomfortable place to be when you have d6 HD.
spalding |
Yeah I realized all the above in hindsight and rephrased my post: See above.
I probably won't go with Wizard 3/ Rogue 2 or Wizard 2/ Rogue 3.
I would do Wizard (or possibly aberrant bloodline sorcerer) 4 and rogue 1. Next level would be in Assassin followed by Arcane Trickster. I lose a total of 2 caster levels instead of 3.
With second level spells I would look to mirror image to keep me from being as much of a target (since it takes multiple swings). First round is spent with that buff second is probably going into positioning and attacking. Using the Sorcerer as Aberrant Bloodline I would sit back 10 feet instead of 5 and flank for my damage five foot stepping away to keep from being attacked when possible.
For long term survival at fifth level I would be using a mithral buckler +x (x being what I can afford) and a wand of mage armor for my regular AC.
Assuming a 20 point buy it would probably look like this for the sorcerer:
Str 7 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 18
With these feats: Weapon Finesse, Combat Casting on a Half Elf. For HP that gives me 6+4+4+4+5+5+10=38 HP
For attacking I would be looking at chill touch since it has multiple uses and can drain strength. I might have a couple of scrolls of invisibility for when I'll need ranged attacks but truthfully that's not a great choice.
With a wizard I would be fairly close to the above but instead:
Str 7 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 7
Again probably half elf with: Weapon Finesse, Combat Casting
The trait I would want is Magical Knack since that will keep my caster level at even to my character level. The wizard would again use the wand and buckler.
Actual equipment would be:
Mithral Buckler + 1 (2,020 gp)
Headband of casting stat + 2 (4,000 gp)
Wand of Mage Armor 1/2 charged (375 gp)
Wand of chill touch 1/2 charged (375 gp)
Scrolls (Glitterdust, See invisibility, etc)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000 gp)
Also wands don't provoke so touch attack spells in wands isn't a bad idea. Chill touch is nice for this because the damage doesn't increase and is negative energy.
james maissen |
Yeah I realized all the above in hindsight and rephrased my post: See above.
I probably won't go with Wizard 3/ Rogue 2 or Wizard 2/ Rogue 3.
I would do Wizard (or possibly aberrant bloodline sorcerer) 4 and rogue 1. Next level would be in Assassin followed by Arcane Trickster. I lose a total of 2 caster levels instead of 3.
Also wands don't provoke so touch attack spells in wands isn't a bad...
I would suggest that a 9INT would be a hurdle to being a skills monkey, and that wizard rather than sorcerer is a better pick from that angle still even as nice as the extra reach is for you.
Second I would suggest a staff rather than a wand. It doesn't provoke either but will be CL 8 rather than 1.
-James
Abraham spalding |
Abraham spalding wrote:Yeah I realized all the above in hindsight and rephrased my post: See above.
I probably won't go with Wizard 3/ Rogue 2 or Wizard 2/ Rogue 3.
I would do Wizard (or possibly aberrant bloodline sorcerer) 4 and rogue 1. Next level would be in Assassin followed by Arcane Trickster. I lose a total of 2 caster levels instead of 3.
Also wands don't provoke so touch attack spells in wands isn't a bad...
I would suggest that a 9INT would be a hurdle to being a skills monkey, and that wizard rather than sorcerer is a better pick from that angle still even as nice as the extra reach is for you.
Second I would suggest a staff rather than a wand. It doesn't provoke either but will be CL 8 rather than 1.
-James
Staves provoke and you can't really afford one at 5th level. he asked my about 5th level so I started there. The int hit hurts -- a little. Honestly not as badly as it could since we are looking at human or half elf. Half elves will get skill focus and keen senses, which plays well into helping on the perception checks. Spells render the overall need for high skills less necessary later on with fly and invisibility (greater) giving great help towards stealth and and silent image helping a lot too.
The skills I would focus in the most would be:
Intimidate, Bluff, Perception, Disable Device, with bluff probably falling off later. Feat wise I would want the following over time: Dazzling display, Shatter Defenses, improved feint Greater Feint.
james maissen |
Staves provoke and you can't really afford one at 5th level.
Staves don't provoke as far as I know. They are the same thing as wands in that regard- spell trigger.
Also a staff with chill touch at 1/charge can be made at 2,160gp full price so it's perfectly viable. Forgo the ring of protection and a wand and you're there with leftover.
The int hit hurts -- a little. Honestly not as badly as it could since we are looking at human or half elf.
I'm sorry but 5-7 more full skills is huge. You suffer for skill points in the arcane caster levels as it is.
-James
Torinath |
I will end the threadjack here, but the lesson to be learned here is not to assume, I guess. Consider the following houserules and circumstances...
--We started at 3rd level, no additional wealth given before my character died, so there is your wealth baseline, 3,000 gp flat.
--Taking more than one stat into the negative or anything below an 8 will get you eaten by a giant slug(house rule), otherwise 15 point buy.
--No purchasing previously owned wands.(Sorry, no Wandfax reports)
--If you take a PrC you must finish it.(again house rule)
--I don't think we were allowed to take traits for this game.(house rule)
So I made a rog2/wiz1 to start, he was a universalist so I could stab from 30' or in their face, the former was preferred. I could go into greater detail, but I think this concludes my point. My feats were Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus(Rapier).
My goal was that if things got hairy or more physical than I wanted, to be able to move around or get out with as little fuss as I could manage.
I have considered swapping some things around, but it was a trial run and my first time playing after nearly five years.
Abraham spalding |
Abraham spalding wrote:
Staves provoke and you can't really afford one at 5th level.
Staves don't provoke as far as I know. They are the same thing as wands in that regard- spell trigger.
Correct not sure where I had that mix up.
Also a staff with chill touch at 1/charge can be made at 2,160gp full price so it's perfectly viable. Forgo the ring of protection and a wand and you're there with leftover.
Not really. I'm really of the opinion that no DM is giong to allow a staff with a single first level spell in it to be made. Also the lack of charges is really going to hurt quickly. The wand you can use up and ditch, the staff has 10 charges, costs almost 3 times as much and if you recharge it eats up a spell slot a day -- might as well just cast the spell.
Abraham spalding wrote:
The int hit hurts -- a little. Honestly not as badly as it could since we are looking at human or half elf.I'm sorry but 5-7 more full skills is huge. You suffer for skill points in the arcane caster levels as it is.
-James
Yes that can be huge, but it also depends on what you want out of the character, and truthfully those skills are not needed -- that are helpful, but not needed.
Now at the end of the day what class am I going to take? Probably the wizard -- that's how I roll. However the sorcerer can do fine in this regard too.
Abraham spalding |
I will end the threadjack here, but the lesson to be learned here is not to assume, I guess. Consider the following houserules and circumstances...
--We started at 3rd level, no additional wealth given before my character died, so there is your wealth baseline, 3,000 gp flat.
--Taking more than one stat into the negative or anything below an 8 will get you eaten by a giant slug(house rule), otherwise 15 point buy.
--No purchasing previously owned wands.(Sorry, no Wandfax reports)
--If you take a PrC you must finish it.(again house rule)
--I don't think we were allowed to take traits for this game.(house rule)So I made a rog2/wiz1 to start, he was a universalist so I could stab from 30' or in their face, the former was preferred. I could go into greater detail, but I think this concludes my point. My feats were Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus(Rapier).
My goal was that if things got hairy or more physical than I wanted, to be able to move around or get out with as little fuss as I could manage.
I have considered swapping some things around, but it was a trial run and my first time playing after nearly five years.
Which are all valid points -- however you are well below wealth per level (this hurts an incredible amount), you don't really have enough stat points, and your DM is adding in stuff that really doesn't belong (not being able to leave a PrC is about stupid -- "Oh yes you can multiclass that's not a problem -- what's that? Not finish a PrC? WARGARBGLE!" "You can't have a wand because... (ok I can't even really come up with a reason here -- does the fighter not get to know about his +1 long sword? How about how many arrows he has? His HP total?)" MY opinion of course. If you can do one you should be able to do the other.
With a 15 point buy I would do the following:
Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 10 Diviner 3/ Rogue 2.
Feats would expand slightly due to the Combat Trick I could pick up.
EDIT: A quick point, generally around here we do go with a 20 point buy at least 1 trait for building characters. Personal experience was asked for but if it isn't qualified with what house rules are in effect it quickly loses meaning. I could say, "Magic use sucks and wizards are the worse class possible" But if I don't qualify it by pointing out that my DM requires concentration checks for every spell cast, that each spell requires a full round to cast, and costs a hit point per spell level I'm not really telling the full story.
So until I'm informed of differences from the "norm" (established through the use of the rules for the PFS) then I'm going to assume the "norm" is what is used -- simply because there isn't a way to know all house rules until informed.
Torinath |
The thing is not much of those pre-reqs would have a great impact on my observations though. The struggle is in the life of a d6 HD character within breathing range of your targets. It is unavoidable unless something changes about the range you can play with. I have my own suggestions, and maybe I will start another thread for them.
Abraham spalding |
They do too:
The gold means a lack of equipment meaning your AC is lower -- 7000 gp has a direct impact on how much you can handle at level 5.
The Stats is the difference between a 10 in Con and a 14, or the bonuses to Wisdom and having a Dex of 16 and Int of 18
The Lack of access to assassin means that you lose another caster level to rogue that wasn't necessary until that point.
The lack of wands is rather huge too (contributes to lack of spells).
The traits can and might not be depending on the trait taken, but increasing your caster level by 2 to keep it even helps a huge amount.
Also: Most combat happens at the 30 foot range regardless of classes involved. considering the prevalence of 20' x 20' rooms, hallways and such it's usually difficult to have combat more than 30' away. Outside this opens up some but with the amount of monsters capable of closing over 30 feet in a round due to fly speeds, and fast movement I don't really think you can get fair enough away to be safe -- instead you have to plan to put stuff in the way or have decent defenses -- again with the mirror image and a decent AC.
Torinath |
I would definitely have to contend that most combats happen at more than 30'(By this I mean total map area not bulk of actual fighting which would be reflective primarily of melee classes). In my experience the manueverabilty of many classes is key, and having a 30' tether of sorts is very very restrictive and binding (especially if you take into account trying to find good conditions for stealth within that 30' radius)Which changes things significantly.
(From what I read from PSRD "Feint ... If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)." I think that is pretty clear. At least I am pretty confident it would be ruled out at our table.)
When I subbed in a Druid to replace my AT I pretty much always did my best to either be flying or further than 30' unless I had to close for a Soften Earth and Stone or other essential close range spell. The idea that all or most combat happens within 30' is a very very very narrow view. If that was the case almost any AoE spell you cast would have an equal chance of hurting your own party than enemies (at which point you become a liability). Sleet Storm would be worthless along with other spells with a 40' radius. Entangle would cripple enemies and friendly movement at the same time. That line of reasoning just seems very short-sighted.
Abraham spalding |
Depending on how you cast and how your fellow players maneuver. On this point I think we'll need to call a draw based on play style differences.
On Feint I'm ok with that for the Sorcerer build and even for the Wizard build. I'm counting on being close enough to use touch attacks, so being in melee isn't quite the issue it seems to be for you.
Also the Sorcerer would have a 10 foot melee touch range.