Magic Jar questions


Rules Questions


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here are a few questions I've had about magic jar for some time now...

1) If I have several ongoing spells cast on me, and then I cast magic jar to possess another, do those buffs remain with my original body, or do they follow me into the new body? On one hand it's great if they do. I can fight the enemy using their own numbers against them, and when they kill my current body, I can possess another enemy and maintain all my buffs in the new body. On the other hand, it's good if my body keeps the buffs as I can then use illusions to disguise my witch's body to look like a passed out drunk or something innocuous.

2) If my life force is in the magic jar (and not in any body) can I still cast spells from the jar's location (provided I have access to silent spell, still spell, and eschew materials)?

3) When you take over someone's body with this spell, and their soul is trapped in the magic jar, are they aware of what's going on? Once freed and returned back to their body, do they remember what happened? Or will they be confused and disoriented about their "time away" much like an amnesiac?

4) If you are in a room full of people ranging from 1st to 10th level, but can only tell a difference of 4 HD or more, is it safe to say that the caster of the magic jar spell can deduce which entity is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th...9th, and 10th-level, by comparing each one to the other nine?

5) I'm in possession of another's body via magic jar and my original body has been slain. When the spell ends I become a soul with no where to go (and are thus considered truly slain). Can I prolong the magic jar duration with multiple castings in order to stay in possession of my surrogate body long enough to see my original body resurrected?

6) What happens if I am in possession of another's body, and cast magic jar a second time, choosing a different gem for the new magic jar? Whose soul goes where?

7) As far as I can tell, non-dimesnional spaces are NOT considered other planes. Does that mean I can throw my original body in a bag of holding or similar area while masquerading as a troll or similar powerful creature? If my magic jar is in a bag of holding, can I possess people within range of the bag of holding?

...I might add more later as I come up with them.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

This is strictly how my group deals with magic jar in relation to your points.

1. Spells affecting your physical body remain with that body. Spells affecting your mind follow your mind ie Mindblank.

2. We've said that the only thing you can do in the jar is spend your actions trying to find a new "host" or return to your body ending the spell. This is because the spell only says you can sense life-forces and try to posses them.

3. We've ruled they're in a strange dark purgatory where it's difficult to tell the passage of time.

4. You'd be able to pick a random guy and go, "ok, there's 4 guys in the room who are more/less powerful then this guy" It would take some seriously thinking to figure out exactly which level of guy you'd chosen, but technically possible with enough time.

5. With out ruling, you'd die in this scenario since as you could do nothing other then try to posses other bodies. You'd have to spend the rest of your time trying to repair/heal your old body.

6. The current body would slump over dead-like. You would go in the new gem and further souls would be swapped to the new gem. If the old spell ends with you out of range of the gem then you die.

7. Dunno about this one, but we've gone with extra-dimensional spaces counting as outside of the range of all spells. We once used a handy-haversack to stop a phantasmal killer casting skull from zapping everyone by putting it in the bag. I often kept my body in a secret chest at the risk of death if the spell ended.

Please treat this as just what my group has sorta followed with this vague spell.

I've been curious what happens if someone kills your old body, then casts Animate Dead or Create Dead on it. Technically it's still there for you to return to, because the spell doesn't say you can't go back to your body if it's dead...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for the response.

Does anyone else have any ideas on how to run it? Or perhaps somebody knows of a few official rulings?


Its one of those spells with huge applications but needs alot of balance between the players and the GM.

1.) Any spells cast upon the characters 'body' stay with the body even if the essence/soul moves into another. The body was the target for the spells in the first place and thusly the spells stay active on the body for their normal durations.

2.) On this point, as far as I know...No. You can only try to reach out and possess another creature, you dont have many other options really option to you at this point as you have no listed body, cant be harmed or inflict harm in turn, etc.

3.) As for this question, I'd usually say the victims 'aware' of what happened to it but its not likely going to understand it. It should be a traumatic experience for the creature in question to be ripped away from its shell like this but it should be aware that 'something' is happening beyond its control.

4.) This element sounds more like a 'radar' type ability than anything that picks up beings with considerably different power levels of 4 HD or more than its companions, it doesnt really state you can 'see' in this soul-form, only that you can detect bodies with a significantly larger power level than others. Its essentially a pot-luck gamble unless when you cast it your aware of what was there to possess in the first place. Basically what it means is that you cant distinguish that clearly between people/creatures of closely related HD if theyre standing in a group for example. It states "but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly"

5.) In this case...no, you die if your out of range of your own body if the 'host' is slain or your stuck in the purgatory 'looking' for a host to possess. "If the host body is slain, you can return to the Magic Jar, if within range and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain and beyond range of the spell (100ft + 10ft/lv) both you and the host die. Any lifeforce with nowhere to go is treated as slain
It also goes on to say "If the spell ends while you are in the Magic Jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while ends you are in the host, you return to your own body (or die, if your body is out of range of your current position) and the soul in the Magic Jar returns to its body (or dies if its out of range). Destroying the recepticle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the Magic Jar or the host's location.

6.) In this case, if your in a new Host body, and you re-cast the spell - then you could surely possess a new creature but in this case you have a 'link' effect, and are limited by the casting of the spell that has the least duration left to run (with the above restrictions). The hosts 'essence' is left in the recepticle ready to come back to its own body, but if you use this spell again WHILE possessing another creature your not doing yourself any favors, your living on a timer basically and have to return to your own body by the time the first casting expries (which means being back in range of your remains).

7.) Ah...in this case, the wording of the extradimensional spaces element to items like the "Handy Haversack/Bags Of Holding" means theyre in a sealed 'pocket' dimension inaccessable to other creatures unless the 'pocket' dimension is open (the bag is left open and not closed). At the moment that the spell expires if the recepticle used to store your remains (and the magic jar itself) is NOT left open for your essence/soul to return to its own body then its considered to be "out of range" of the spell and you die as it says on the spell description. Ontop of that - the 'body' is practically dead (braindead, no response, beyond simply respitory functions and such), if you dont give your body adequate air supply in this extradimensional space (most spaces hold about an hour or so of air for a single medium size creature) then its going to asphixiate and your going to return to a corpse, not a shell and you'll die in the same manner as if your body was slain.

I hope that helps.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Princess Of Canada wrote:


5.) In this case...no, you die if your out of range of your own body if the 'host' is slain or your stuck in the purgatory 'looking' for a host to possess. "If the host body is slain, you can return to the Magic Jar, if within range and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain and beyond range of the spell (100ft + 10ft/lv) both you and the host die. Any lifeforce...

I am having some difficulty following you on this point. Am I correct in thinking that your assertion is that one CANNOT extend the spell's duration by recasting it?


Ravingdork wrote:
Princess Of Canada wrote:


5.) In this case...no, you die if your out of range of your own body if the 'host' is slain or your stuck in the purgatory 'looking' for a host to possess. "If the host body is slain, you can return to the Magic Jar, if within range and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain and beyond range of the spell (100ft + 10ft/lv) both you and the host die. Any lifeforce...
I am having some difficulty following you on this point. Am I correct in thinking that your assertion is that one CANNOT extend the spell's duration by recasting it?

Without first having a Host body to cast it from yes - one cannot cast spells in this 'soul state', it says under the spell the only action you can take is to possess other life-forces which you can disntingish as positive energy lifeforces and negative energy lifeforces, and can only distinguish creatures more than 4 HD apart.

If you dont have a host body at the moment, you cant recast the spell (you cant make the gestures and vocal components required for the spell).

Even if a spellcaster prepared this spell with Silent Spell & Still Spell to negate the components of the spell, it doesnt indicate anywhere in this spell you can do anything in soul form except try to possess people, you cant attack anyone, buff yourself and whatnot. You cant be harmed or harm others and cant affect anyone or yourself with additional spell effects without a host body first.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Princess Of Canada wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Princess Of Canada wrote:


5.) In this case...no, you die if your out of range of your own body if the 'host' is slain or your stuck in the purgatory 'looking' for a host to possess. "If the host body is slain, you can return to the Magic Jar, if within range and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain and beyond range of the spell (100ft + 10ft/lv) both you and the host die. Any lifeforce...
I am having some difficulty following you on this point. Am I correct in thinking that your assertion is that one CANNOT extend the spell's duration by recasting it?

Without first having a Host body to cast it from yes - one cannot cast spells in this 'soul state', it says under the spell the only action you can take is to possess other life-forces which you can disntingish as positive energy lifeforces and negative energy lifeforces, and can only distinguish creatures more than 4 HD apart.

If you dont have a host body at the moment, you cant recast the spell (you cant make the gestures and vocal components required for the spell).

Even if a spellcaster prepared this spell with Silent Spell & Still Spell to negate the components of the spell, it doesnt indicate anywhere in this spell you can do anything in soul form except try to possess people, you cant attack anyone, buff yourself and whatnot. You cant be harmed or harm others and cant affect anyone or yourself with additional spell effects without a host body first.

Assuming you are in someone's body, could you cast the spell again to extend the duration? That's what I was asking. Whether or not I could cast AT ALL from the gem was a separate question.


Ah - well I'd assume that if you were using the spell to remain in the same body only, then yes - I'd say you could extend it, but not while in the purgatory of that bodiless soul form.


Princess Of Canada wrote:


Ah - well I'd assume that if you were using the spell to remain in the same body only, then yes - I'd say you could extend it, but not while in the purgatory of that bodiless soul form.

How can you remain in the same body with a second casting? You have to enter the second jar upon casting it.


Robert Young wrote:
Princess Of Canada wrote:


Ah - well I'd assume that if you were using the spell to remain in the same body only, then yes - I'd say you could extend it, but not while in the purgatory of that bodiless soul form.
How can you remain in the same body with a second casting? You have to enter the second jar upon casting it.

I didnt consider that fact, thanks Robert - I agree that in hindsight you would need to reuse the recepticle (or another one) to cast the spell and that means vacating the body (albeit temporarily). So in essence, no - you have to revert back to your own body. Though Extend Spell would double the duration by adding +1 to the level of the spell.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Robert Young wrote:
Princess Of Canada wrote:


Ah - well I'd assume that if you were using the spell to remain in the same body only, then yes - I'd say you could extend it, but not while in the purgatory of that bodiless soul form.
How can you remain in the same body with a second casting? You have to enter the second jar upon casting it.

Quite naturally you would target the same magic jar you targeted with the first casting.


Ravingdork wrote:


How can you remain in the same body with a second casting? You have to enter the second jar upon casting it.
Quite naturally you would target the same magic jar you targeted with the first casting.

Interesting question. Spell durations don't stack, and even though they seem to overlap, I'd say you have to return to your body after the initial duration is over. And having said that, I like the creativity, and would probably allow you to keep putting coins in the meter for story purposes at my table.

Edit: I can only find negative assurance to back up my claim that it's not allowed. That is, there's nothing in the Magic section under duration that says you can extend a spell's original duration by casting it again.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Was hoping to get some new insight into the above questions.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Anyone?


No new insights.
No clarifications.
No news on the Western Front.

I guess shoring up the basic game just isn't as interesting/fun/profitable as creating new monsters or archetypes.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:
Was hoping to get some new insight into the above questions.

Well there HAS been some new official clarification on this issue (kinda). There is a official record of the tactic in print right now.

It's from a PF module so I'll spoiler it for those who don't want to know.

Spoiler:
In the Module the Moonscar there is a shadow demon that uses it's magic jar ability to continually repossess the same body over and over again. The official write up there states as long as the duration of the last magic jar hasn't expired it can cast the spell again and repossess the same body.

Now this doesn't preclude you needing to return to the receptacle between castings since the Demon's version doesn't require one but it's a confirmation that you CAN cast the spell while possessing a body.


Now that is interesting, for two reasons:

  • If magic jar can be extended like that, other spells probably can too.
  • The spell-like abilities stay with the possessor, even though this particular one is a racial ability. So it's likely just about anything the caster can do normally, is still available while "jarred" in another body. Likely at the cost of access to the host body's abilities.


1) Your very first question all those years ago is one I am still wrestling with. I like the idea of a spellcaster casting spells on a possessed body and then jumping back into his gem and possibly another body. The potential for abuse that makes me uncomfortable is a caster being able to put a lot of personal buffs on a minion, and then sending that minion off to fight. A wizard could magic jar putting Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and Mirror Image on his minions, whether they were living mercenaries or intelligent undead. Putting personal buffs on minions is a pretty big restriction to get around, but it is a 5th level spell with some significant drawbacks so I tend to waffle on this point.

2) My feeling is no. In the receptacle the only actions available to you is to sense the life forces around and attempt to take them over.

3) My take is they would be disoriented and confused, but aware that their soul had been imprisoned or in some way removed from their body. Spellcraft checks to learn more.

4) I would probably rule that the caster could pick from the most powerful auras (randomly determined from all the 7-10HD creatures in your example), the least powerful (a randomly determined 1-4HD), or the middle (randomly determined 4-7HD). Partly that's to keep it simple, partly because it seems to me that since the auras have no identifying features other than relative power and you seem to have you no spatial awareness, you wouldn't really be able to keep track of specific auras.

5) My take is no. If the magic jar ends and you ain't go no body to go to, you would be slain.

6) The easiest answer would be no, that you can't have two of the same spells with the same effect active at the same time. A more interesting answer to me would be to allow the caster to keep casting magic jars to jump from gem to gem to extend the duration, but that's a fairly wooly ruling. I wouldn't blame a GM for wanting to keep things simple.

7) I'd say no. Referring to the rules on extradimensional spaces, it seems to me that while a space that does not exist in any dimension might not be an "other plane" neither it is your plane. You could store your body and the gem in a portable hole or bag of holding, but to have access to it, you'd need to take the body or the gem out.

I'd say the best get-around to the range restricition of Magic Jar (at higher levels anyway) would be the Clone spell. Once you've prepared your Clone, you put it in the safest place imaginable. Then you go off, Magic Jar into a host and do what you do best. If the unthinkable happens and you are unable to get back to your body (or it is discovered in it's vulnerable state and hacked to bits by adventurers with no sense of humor), your Clone comes online. Not without cost, but better than being dead. It certainly ups your unkillability quotient.


" 2) If my life force is in the magic jar (and not in any body) can I still cast spells from the jar's location (provided I have access to silent spell, still spell, and eschew materials)? "

Nowhere in the spell description does it list any restrictions while in the magic jar. It describes how one senses his environment and the relative strength of life forces, but this has little bearing on whether spell casting is possible. A golem can be magic jarred, and the possessor can cast spells from it. An item familiar can cast spells. I see no reason why a spell can't be cast with no verbal, somatic, or material components.


Ravingdork wrote:
Here are a few questions I've had about magic jar for some time now...

Magic Jar

1) yes and no depending upon the targeting, spell description, and effect. I'd agree that [mind affecting] follow the affected mind. Historically (3.5) curses follow the affected person(soul/mental ability scores).

2) No. As you have no body, cannot speak, cannot hold material components you cannot cast in a classical manner. Psychic casting... hmmm...

3) No. One assumes they experience a featureless void or are unconscious.
They may (GM decision). At a minimum they will experience a sudden change of location and time unless the caster takes special precautions.

4) No. The GM usually groups them after examining the creatures in range (in my experience in a descending manner). Encounters generally have 2 HD groups and the party, 3 if the GM was expansive in monster selection. The CR system discourages diversity. Your example is special, but still the answer is no as you are assuming the grouping.

5) Yes. Casting a spell (recasting) restarts the duration (your body is still the same(return point) and not the possessed creature's body). The creature currently in the Magic Jar will get a save against the 'new' spell. If the creature makes it the caster is dead. It would be wiser to cast it using a second focus at this point.

6) You cast the spell and go into the second focus. The dispossessed soul is still in the first focus. Technically to get the dispossessed soul to go into the second focus you would have to go into the first focus forcing the soul back to its body and try to force it back into the second focus via another save. Possessing a magic jar seems automatic for the caster.

7) You can put your old carcass where you like, it's an object while it is souless. IF you put it into a bag of holding, handy haversack, or secret chest it is not on your plane if you die (VERY inconvenient). Use a spell/item that works on objects but the item stays on this plane.

Occult Adventures might have added some spin on the process.


Holy resurrection! Someone was stuck in a magic jar for a long time and finally had their body put back together...


well, let us say desperate times call for desperate measures...

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