Has anything changed between 3.5 and Pathfinder to kick this old horror to the curb?
If not, how do I prepare as a DM to stop it from being a viable tactic for PCs and NPCs alike? My players have already complained that they shouldn't be the ones sent to take out low-level barbarian warlords if they could for the same expense hire a high level wizard to teleport in, frag the guy and be back in a few seconds.
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Even in 3.5, I saw scry-and-die as a symptom of an under-prepared GM. The technique seemed most effective with Players who were dropping into a campaign at higher levels, so the GM didn't have time to "warm up" and learn appropriate countermeasures. Countermeasures do exist in 3.5 and Pathfinder. Nondetection is a biggie.
I expect the upcoming Game Master's Guide will have a few words to say on the topic, but it is likely to be advice rather than hard rulings.
If your player complain about that, they shouldn't complain about the following points, should they?
1) Their character will spend part of their monetary resources to hire a NPC, resources which doesn't come back to them. In terms of money, the net gain for them is in the (potentially high) negative.
2) At the same time, they would gain barely a shred of the experience that the quest would have gotten them... if at all.
3) They wouldn't gain the glory/reputation/contacts that the quest would have gotten them.
4) The wizard isn't played by them, and he could be seduced by the wily barbarian warlord (who could happen to be of the opposite gender... or not) and defect to the enemies' side. If that happens, not only would they HAVE to get there to deal with a situation that they helped going worse, but their glory/reputation would take a hit.
I thought that this thread was about the Scry and Die tactic, not the hiring of NPC. As a GM, I have nothing against the Scry and Die itself, because I know that using spells to Scry and Die cost the spellcasters resources (spell slots) that aren't refilled by the hour. If this is a problem for you, give them many low-level encounters (have them try to pass through a territory controlled by an army, for instance: many patrols to deal with, swiftly and discreetly, while staying constantly on the move). After a time, they'll notice that they have to deal with the couple extra encounters with barely a spell left.
Do you have other specific examples of types of gameplay that you want to "kick to the curb"?
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There is another very simple and elegant solution if you don't want to employ such tactics on your players and don't want them to derail your plot by doing it to you. Simply enter into a Locke-ian social contract with your players telling them that if they don't do that then you won't either. My GM did that with us in 3.5 with Disjunction, and trust me it proved to be effective, I know that I didn't want all of my magical gear made inert!!!
Some less out of game and more in game solutions to this tactic as lightly touched upon earlier exist too, such as Nondetection, Mind Blank (I think that it protects you from scrying, but I could be wrong), and a favorite of ours in high level play Dimensional Lock or Dimensional Anchor.
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There is another very simple and elegant solution if you don't want to employ such tactics on your players and don't want them to derail your plot by doing it to you. Simply enter into a Locke-ian social contract with your players telling them that if they don't do that then you won't either. My GM did that with us in 3.5 with Disjunction, and trust me it proved to be effective, I know that I didn't want all of my magical gear made inert!!!
Some less out of game and more in game solutions to this tactic as lightly touched upon earlier exist too, such as Nondetection, Mind Blank (I think that it protects you from scrying, but I could be wrong), and a favorite of ours in high level play Dimensional Lock or Dimensional Anchor.
Good approach!
How does Dimensional Anchor help here though?
I don't like scry-and-die. It's implications in a game world are incredibly negative, making all famous, powerful, successful individuals paranoid or dead. Ugly world. Dead generals everywhere. 'Congratulations! You've just been promoted!' Uhhh, no thanks, you don't know me, wrong number, wrong number!
What keeps it under control in my game is:
a) Declaration that NPCs of 9th level and greater generally require a side-quest (to find them or win their alliance) before you can get anything out of them.
b) Money control. My players wouldn't hire an NPC for this kind of operation simply because they can't get the scratch to do it.
At some level, the PCs may develop the capabilities to do this on their own, but they can never be truly sure what awaits them on the other side.
"I can't believe you tried a 'scry and die' tactic on me... ME!"
-Xykon
Scry-n-Fry is a definite concern in a RAW game. Using NPCs to accomplish it is pretty wasteful and unlikely to occur. Most NPC wizards don't have access to teleport circle and in most games NPC wizards are unwilling to adventure themselves thus teleport (a critical aspect of scry n fry) is not on the playing field.
The key thing to limiting it's use is that the PCs have to be familiar with the target. If you don't broadcast the identity of the bad guys it's pretty hard to scry them. IMC you have to know the Hobgoblin General's name instead of "I want to scry the generic hobgoblin general in charge of this army". While use of knowledge and social skills helps in this regards it does mean that the PC wizard can't just automagically scry everyone.
Further rigidly enforce the teleport familiarity rules. If the hobgoblin is in a tent in a field and you've only scryed him once then use the "viewed once" category of teleport. That should be a disincentive to routinely using scry-n-fry tactics. Granted when greater teleport comes into play scry-n-fry becomes very easy but you can negate that by making a large number of BBEG secure in lead-lined dungeons or take the revolutionary tack of removing greater teleport from the spell list.
Nondetection, amulets of proof against location/detection, lead lined saferooms, gorgon's blood in the mortar, permanent dimension locks, etc can all be used to secure the BBEG's crypt, castle, stronghold from divination and teleportation.
Social contract of "don't use this tactic routinely and the BBEG won't do the same" can always be used as well.
Well, there are a few things that you may want to look at.
Casting time for Srying is 1 hour.
Target get's a saving throw and Spell Resistance applies as well.
You see 10' around the subject.
Clairvoyance has a casting time of 10 minutes and a range of long.
No saves and spell resistance does not work, however, the target is a location, not a creature.
Teleportation states that you must have a clear idea of the location and the layout of the destination. As well, it also says that the physical or magical area may make teleportation difficult or impossible.
And then there are the spells and physical protections that individuals take to prevent scry and fry tactics.
So, scrying from afar, even if you succeed, may not give you enough information to teleport in. Does that 10' radius around the target provide you with enough information to allow you to go with the "viewed once" category?
Has anything changed between 3.5 and Pathfinder to kick this old horror to the curb?
If not, how do I prepare as a DM to stop it from being a viable tactic for PCs and NPCs alike? My players have already complained that they shouldn't be the ones sent to take out low-level barbarian warlords if they could for the same expense hire a high level wizard to teleport in, frag the guy and be back in a few seconds.
forbiddance is expensive, but a prudent investment even for a BBEG who can't cast it themselves (since who cares how much they spent anyway).
permanent duration, blocks teleport and relatively hard to dispel.
makes a nasty and logical combination with unhallow.
In a reality where "scry and die" is possible, powerful people over a certain level are simply going to prepare for it. IRL, cell phone conversations are pretty easy to listen in on, which is why I suspect that Bill Gates and President Obama don't discuss certain topics on them.
The spell "divination" (Cleric 4) can tip off the potential target up to a week in advance that such an attempt is going to be made which is pretty much the same thing as saying "You scry, you die."
Any villain worth his black hat is going to have a cohort or hireling whose responsibility it is to uncover and prevent such things.
As for why mid to high level wizards don't run around solving (or causing) all the problems in the world, well, I suspect most of them have problems and enemies of their own to worry about. Scry and Die is inherently dangerous to both sides, and most npcs probably aren't going to want to take the risk of dying, or of angering some one farther up the food chain.
What is the actual "expense" in question? How is it costing them money to perform a service? Why would a high level wizard do the "dieing" for them, or anyone, anyways? The fee would have to be VERY hefty, as the wizard could potentially be risking his own life. I don't see anyone that can cast "Teleport" being for-hire to take out worthless goons. Anyone at that level will either have something better to do/more worth their time or problems of their own to deal with.
I think you have a bigger problem in that your players think they can just pay people to take care of "their" problems. Clearly they have a very egocentric view of their world: Every NPC does not exist to be a little problem solver for them.
Answer:
Nondetection: 1 hr/level (+Extend Rod = eventually only need a slot 2 days out of 3)
Detect Scrying: 24 hrs duration (1 slot per 2 days w/ Extend)
and/or Extended/Permanent Arcane Sight/See Invisible/True Seeing.
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The spell "divination" (Cleric 4) can tip off the potential target up to a week in advance that such an attempt is going to be made which is pretty much the same thing as saying "You scry, you die."
How so?
School divination; Level cleric 4
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (incense and an appropriate offering worth 25 gp)
Range personal
Target you
Duration instantaneous
Similar to augury but more powerful, a divination spell can provide you with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within 1 week. The advice granted by the spell can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen. If your party doesn't act on the information, the conditions may change so that the information is no longer useful. The base chance for a correct divination is 70% + 1% per caster level, to a maximum of 90%. If the die roll fails, you know the spell failed, unless specific magic yielding false information is at work.
A cohort or hireling won't be able to make predictions for the villain, and any advice the villain can find out about herself is a piece of advice concerning a specific goal, event, or activity. I suppose "I'm looking to survive the week" is a goal, but a short phrase may not be everything a villain needs to avoid a teleporting assassin.
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Teleportation, whether or not it's combined with scrying or other divination effects, is a part of the game. The way I handle these tactics is to encourage adventure designers to plan for them. This could mean setting an adventure in an area where scrying or teleporation don't work well, but that's kind of a cheap shot that I prefer not using. A much better solution is to build high level adventures so that skipping to the end is a TERRIBLE choice, tactically. This is why in so many of Pathfinder higher level adventures you see adventures that have multiple sub-goals that need to be addressed before the final goal is addressed. Another good solution is to set up the adventure such that the final goal isn't the defeat of a specific NPC but a retrieval of a key object or the defense of a fortification—anything that shifts the focus of the goal away from one target, since scry won't help at all if there's not a creature to scry.
What it basically boils down to, though, is the fact that a party's abilities at high level fundamentally change the nature of the game, and thus should fundamentally change the nature of game design. A good 1st level adventure can't just become a good 10th or 20th level adventure by replacing the monsters with higher CR foes; one big reason why I wasn't a huge fan of "adapting the adventure" style sidebars back in Paizo's Dungeon Days. There's more to writing a good high-level adventure than swapping out giants for goblins.
To answer one question: It was just one player complaining that there were these problems in the world, and there were much higher level good NPCs in the world, so why didn't they deal with them? My answer was, 'Do you want to adventure or not?' although that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of verisimilitude. For the most part, however, I can leave it alone and the rest of the party will drag the complainer along.
I understand that a high level D&D world must be prepared for such tactics, but that's not the kind of world I want to be running. I'm not an experienced DM.
As a simple fix, I'm thinking of having teleport cause the teleportees to be helpless for one round while they materialise. That should cut down on offensive use.
Imagine someone in Star Trek seeing a shimmering transporter field and plunging a length of steel into it as it forms. Ouch.
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The high level NPC probably has more important things to worry about than some jerk who's robbing a few gold pieces from the locals. That 15th level wizard is unlocking secrets hidden for centuries, tracking down world-threatening villains, or retired and doesn't care.
If he's a 10th+ level wizard caster of any type, he has no real need for simple gold and can certainly find more efficient ways of getting it. In order to gain his aid, they'll probably need to go do some task that he can't be bothered to do, seeking out some artifact or something along those lines.
As long as you make sure that the quest they undertake to secure his aid is lengthier and more difficult than the task they want him to do, they should wise up pretty quickly.
If it's a party member itself who is doing this, then let them do it and have that foe by a CR or 2 higher than they can reasonably fight. If it becomes a repeated problem, have them teleport in and find that their mark hired a wizard 4 levels higher than the party, he dimension anchor's the party teleporter and lays waste Xykon style.
A good 1st level adventure can't just become a good 10th or 20th level adventure by replacing the monsters with higher CR foes; one big reason why I wasn't a huge fan of "adapting the adventure" style sidebars back in Paizo's Dungeon Days. There's more to writing a good high-level adventure than swapping out giants for goblins.
Of course, and "Adapting the Adventure" sidebar with that kind of option in it would still be good. It would certainly require more talent, but I think the idea is redeemable within reason.
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I tend to lean toward simulation over gamism when I play. If possible I like the world to make some sense internally to the characters(yes this is an impossible task, I know this already, but it is a goal). For this reason, I do not like to run teleport as written precisely because it allows scry and die. I reason that if such scry and die tactics existed then anyone that wanted to ensure their supremacy would simply use the tactic before a challenger could obtain the well-known defenses to this tactic.
I am sure most people have heard of real-world despots or drug king-pins that kill off any potential rivals before the rivals can rise to a level of power where they become immune to these assassination plots. It does a coke kingpin no good to wait until his rival is capable of repelling his squad of killers with a private army of his own, so he strikes before his target is capable of this kind of defense. Translating this to the D&D world, a BBEG caster that gets a report of upstarts causing trouble at the edge of his organization does not wait until the party is capable of using scry and die on him, nor does he fall into defensive "cast a bunch of spells to ward off a possible attack" mode, nor does he wait until his enemies can defend against this very effective tactic. Instead, he simply teleports in and frags them in their sleep one night right after they hit 8th level or so and is back in his Dark Tower in time for his regularly scheduled Black Mass. It isn't very fair and it isn't very story-ish, but if you were the BBEG, that is what you would do.
Since I want to avoid this issue altogether, I simply have made a couple of changes to the way teleport works. Basically, a wizard/psion cannot use any form of teleport spell to teleport to any location he (or his familiar/psi-crystal) has not physically been or that he cannot see with his naked eye. Thus a wizard could teleport his group "atop yonder mountain", "to the edge of that line of trees", "back to the inn", or "into that secret room with the pool where we last sought refuge" but not "where my scry sensor/prying eyes/clairvoyance/arcane eye showed me".
A wizard or familiar must take a full round action to "memorize" the location and thereafter he can use any of the teleport spells to reach that spot, provided he has the range on the spell to do so. I also have done away with any teleport mishap chance to offset this inconvenience, so every version of teleport works like a teleport without error. From a game standpoint, the player of the wizard/psion keeps a list of the places he has memorized; he can then whisk the party to any of these places at any time without risk.
Where rule changes are not acceptable to the group, I have simply told them that any technique or spell they use *will* be used against them in the same manner that they use by enemies that are just as resourceful as they. This limits painful spells like disjunction but also limits "clever rules interpretations/loopholes" like various CharOp builds, chain-binding of wish-granting outsiders and the like. From a simulationist point of view, I tell the players that the world will operate on the rules they define so if they introduce something that gives them some wonky advantage, they will find the technique used against them in short order. The players all find this very fair and limit their actions accordingly. As we have been playing together now for a decade (and some of them for 25 years in the same group), I find that the group polices itself and I am rarely presented with a "can I get away with this" type question.
Admittedly not every group is like this, but this approach can work well if everyone knows everyone and trusts them to keep the game fun.
I've always liked this house rule in this guy's blog
I like the idea that a person near the target location of the teleport can detect the incoming teleport and since the teleport is not instantaneous, the BBEG has time to prepare his defenses.
4e restricts teleport between prepared circles and out of combat.
Monte Cook rewrote teleport as basically being only between points personally visited in person, with a long casting time due to the calculations involved.
Anticipate teleport means that nobody can teleport in close to you without warning you.
Detect Scrying means you know when you're being scried on...and who is doing it! Time to turn the tables on them, aye?
Forbiddance wards them away.
Teleport traps exist that redirect teleports incoming into specific areas...like closed pits or sealed cells.
Personally, if you believe in scry and die, then you should also believe in permanent, large-scale defenses against it, like mythals. I can very easily picture a city with an Interdiction field in place that basically shuts down all teleport effects. The common people won't care, and the powerful should actually feel safer since nobody can pop in on them, and enemies can't just teleport away. Walls actually have meaning again! Volo's Magical Guide to Faerun actually had an artifact in there that did just that...
Interdiction is a mere 3rd level spell in my campaign. It adds 2 levels to the slot required to teleport in an area, and it can be Raised as part of its intrinsic nature. So, cast it at 6th level, and you have to burn a level 10 slot just to teleport, level 9 to dimension door. Completely shuts down creatures with natural teleporting tactics. It works by strengthening the Veil, the barrier between dimensions that teleport gets around, effectively making 'reality' stronger, and not twisted around like a teleporter wants to do. It's generally one of the first spells cast in a fight...stops both incoming and outgoing, and dramatically alters the power of a fight.
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As a simple fix, I'm thinking of having teleport cause the teleportees to be helpless for one round while they materialise. That should cut down on offensive use.
Hmm, that sounds good. I also like the idea of the anticipate teleportation spell and/or some kind of teleportation warding effect -- something a level or two lower than forbiddance but strictly to prevent teleporting...
Because no one ever uses lead paint even though it was the most common type for most of civilization's existence...
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Personally, if you believe in scry and die, then you should also believe in permanent, large-scale defenses against it, like mythals. I can very easily picture a city with an Interdiction field in place that basically shuts down all teleport effects. The common people won't care, and the powerful should actually feel safer since nobody can pop in on them, and enemies can't just teleport away. Walls actually have meaning again! Volo's Magical Guide to Faerun actually had an artifact in there that did just that...
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==Aelryinth
My GM did this to a city on the front lines of a war zone so the enemies couldn't teleport in behind their lines. Made for an interesting session when 10s of thousands of troops all telleported to the fields outside the city and set up a siege in under an hour.
Aren't there devices surrounding the World Wound that keep all of those hungry, destructive, teleporting at will Demons contained?
"Look alive people, someone is scrying on us!"
Detect Scrying lasts 24 hours
Scrying creates an invisible sensor. Detect invisibility or Lantern of Revealing will let people know they're being scried on.
Sleep under an illusion or in magical darkness.
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The high level NPC probably has more important things to worry about than some jerk who's robbing a few gold pieces from the locals. That 15th level wizard is unlocking secrets hidden for centuries, tracking down world-threatening villains, or retired and doesn't care.
If he's a 10th+ level wizard caster of any type, he has no real need for simple gold and can certainly find more efficient ways of getting it. In order to gain his aid, they'll probably need to go do some task that he can't be bothered to do, seeking out some artifact or something along those lines.
As long as you make sure that the quest they undertake to secure his aid is lengthier and more difficult than the task they want him to do, they should wise up pretty quickly.
If it's a party member itself who is doing this, then let them do it and have that foe by a CR or 2 higher than they can reasonably fight. If it becomes a repeated problem, have them teleport in and find that their mark hired a wizard 4 levels higher than the party, he dimension anchor's the party teleporter and lays waste Xykon style.
w0nkothesane hit the nail on the head! The problem is the conditions you've set up as a GM. High-level wizards do not hire themselves out willy-nilly. And certainly not to be some hired assissin for some nobodys he's never heard of. My players wouldn't try this one in my game world because the verisimilitude understands that.
Scry and Die only works if you know what you are looking for. If your mission is retrieve the princess, then the BBEG has most assuradley warded the dungeon he is holding her to scrying. If the players are smart they may be able to get themselves close to the dungeon, but not in it. There are also spells that block extradimensional movement. High level baddies would almost certainly paid to permanently used these to ward their lairs.
The big thing is your party and what they like to do. If you are just starting out at high levels, make sure to talk to your players about their characters and what they can do, and plan for it. Keep an eye on primary spell casters and what spells they know and like to use.
Or if you are coming from low levels, as you move up make sure you keep an eye on the first couple times they use things like scry and teleport. Allow them to work some of the time, but not when it would derail the story/adventure. It depends on the level of magic in your world, but in mine it is common place, so even non-caster big bads commission wards and such for their properties. And you as the DM do not need to specifically think of where to ward and where not to. Just decide when the player tries, "Will this derail the story?" if no, dont put a ward there, if yes, 'you are unable to scry this location for some reason'. For me its as simple as that.
Has anything changed between 3.5 and Pathfinder to kick this old horror to the curb?
Along with everything else mentioned, scrying sensors are MUCH easier to notice. It's now a Perception test rather than an Intelligence test. It's very possible for the target to notice the sensor and set a trap for the party with minions or specially prepared terrain.
I think the real problem is that at higher levels there are a much wider range of options available, and few of us have a good idea of what could be done with a list of obscure spells (especially with spells changing in each edition of the game).
on defense- mind blank, cast every 24 hours (lv 8 wizard spell). it stops even WISH from locating you. sure its limited to lv 15+ wizards/16+ sorcerers, but it looks useful enough for a craft wonderous item. 240,000 gold if its continuous, but i could see a lich with a wizard-only(-30%) 1 charge/day (20% total cost), command word wonderous item (8x15x1800=) for a mere 30,240 gp value.
so once you hit CR 14+, it becomes reasonable for an intelligent enemy to be able to have a wizard who will mind-blank his boss daily, or make an item for him. This is the kind of defense you want your king to have, so its may be part of the 'royal jewels', leading to risk of theft and missions to recover them (possible adventure hook).
This is yet another reason why wizards rule, fighters drool thinking is pretty bad. Basically unless they are either a high-level wizard or they have a high level wizard as a servitor :| or they can hire a wizard to create high end limited utility defenses the fighters, rogues and aristocrats are basically dead.
Now you can metagame like crazy and create strongholds where the walls are lined with lead and gorgon's blood and dimensional locks cover most of the square footage but you've basically said a) metagaming your PCs is good, and b) basically ruled that every significant power center in the game needs to be protected by x amount of magical resources. Honestly neither one is really desirable to me.
Personally I think teleport and divinations are important parts of the game but divinations should probably be more range dependent (or at least DCs should scale with extreme range) and teleport could probably be shifted to a system of point to point connections (ala stargate portals) + word of recall effects (so the PCs can beat a hasty retreat back to a safe house). These nerfs could solve many of the problems with this tactic without creating a magic arms race that's a) not fun and b) requires a massive suspension of disbelief.
Lead sheeting blocks scrying (p. 210 Core Rulebook).
Even a few Glyphs of Warding with Hold Person going off on anyone teleporting in may be a rough surprise for lower level scry&fry fans.
Some useful defensive spells:
level 2 (1 for bards)
Obscure Object
level 3
Nondetection
level 4
Detect Scrying
level 5
False Vision
Mage's Private Sanctum
level 6
Antimagic Field
Forbiddance
level 7
Mage's Magnificent Manison
level 8
Dimensional Lock
Mind Blank
I believe in organic worlds. In any world where teleportation is common, spells and tactics against its use would be developed.
You see this in Forgotten Realms where you can toss a rock in any random direction and 1 or more level 10+ NPCs will dodge it. High level character abound, and thus, so do protections against teleportation.
If Elminster can't scry and fry with impunity, then why the hell would a player be able to?
I think the real problem is that at higher levels there are a much wider range of options available, and few of us have a good idea of what could be done with a list of obscure spells (especially with spells changing in each edition of the game).
on defense- mind blank, cast every 24 hours (lv 8 wizard spell). it stops even WISH from locating you. sure its limited to lv 15+ wizards/16+ sorcerers, but it looks useful enough for a craft wonderous item. 240,000 gold if its continuous, but i could see a lich with a wizard-only(-30%) 1 charge/day (20% total cost), command word wonderous item (8x15x1800=) for a mere 30,240 gp value.
so once you hit CR 14+, it becomes reasonable for an intelligent enemy to be able to have a wizard who will mind-blank his boss daily, or make an item for him. This is the kind of defense you want your king to have, so its may be part of the 'royal jewels', leading to risk of theft and missions to recover them (possible adventure hook).
This is yet another reason why wizards rule, fighters drool thinking is pretty bad. Basically unless they are either a high-level wizard or they have a high level wizard as a servitor :| or they can hire a wizard to create high end limited utility defenses the fighters, rogues and aristocrats are basically dead.
Now you can metagame like crazy and create strongholds where the walls are lined with lead and gorgon's blood and dimensional locks cover most of the square footage but you've basically said a) metagaming your PCs is good, and b) basically ruled that every significant power center in the game needs to be protected by x amount of magical resources. Honestly neither one is really desirable to me.
Personally I think teleport and divinations are important parts of the game but divinations should probably be more range dependent (or at least DCs should scale with extreme range) and teleport could probably be shifted to a system of point to point connections (ala stargate portals) + word of recall...
Or you could have villians white wash their castle walls, as would have been the proper thing to do. A coating of lead paint will foil many spells, and despite what people may think now, castles were painted.
The core problem with anti-scrying is that it basically requires a) spellcasters to accomplish and/or b) requires antagonists to be extremely static.
I personally dislike needing to pull out either a high-end caster or a spellcasting dragon/outsider in order to adequately challenge a 12+ level party. They are a pain to stat-up and I'd actually like to you know have a thief guildmaster be a credible opponent without needing to have him rely on a wizard hireling.
Permanent effects like forbiddance are nice. Many high end churches and temples will like have most if not all of the temple grounds shielded via layered forbiddance effects.
Lead sheeting is an okay defense, unless you assume that lead paint satisfies the requirement (personally the idea of paint containing such a small quantity of metal - probably less than 0.1% by weight - satisfying the need seems a violation of RAI) lead sheeting would be prohibitively costly and heavy outside of the most extreme examples. A couple of saferooms in a castle, I can buy and maybe even a crypt of a demi-lich but routine use of lead sheeting in construction likely requires extremely extensive mining/refining (psuedo-industrial) or some sort of magical analogue (eberron style magi-tech). FR gets by with it because everything is "magic" there. Worlds that are a bit less steampunk/high fantasy routine use of lead sheeting covering all the walls is a major suspension of disbelief.
Further lead sheeting makes your enemies extremely static. Carrying lead sheets to line the walls of a general's tent is probably stretching credibility beyond the breaking point. So realistically a general needs to have enough mid-to-high level casters to not only detect scrying but somehow foil teleportation after scrying.
I'm surprised that more people haven't turned their attention to the post that mentions scrying only showing a 10' radius area around the subject. That can be a big game changer if you properly use terrain. Sure, the immediate area around the BBEG looks normal, but suppose the rest of the room contains magma? Or brown mold? Or numerous guardians? Magical traps activated by proximity? It's difficult to prepare for all eventualities, especially the unknowns.
I personally dislike needing to pull out either a high-end caster or a spellcasting dragon/outsider in order to adequately challenge a 12+ level party. They are a pain to stat-up and I'd actually like to you know have a thief guildmaster be a credible opponent without needing to have him rely on a wizard hireling.
I think part of your problem is that you think a thieves guild is made up only of rogues. No arcane tricksters or bards in the guild? If I were a powerful master of a large guild, I would have at least one advisor who was a spellcaster. The guild is the real villian, the guildmaster just happens to be the guy in charge at the moment.
Second, wands, staves, or scrolls plus use magic device.... No wizard needed, just a bit of money.
Third, we are basically talking about the players working like a group of assassinations. Thus all of the standard ways of defending against assassins come into play. Here are a few examples...
1. Failsafes. The villian has plans within plans. If he dies prematurely without someone unraveling the plans, really bad things will happen. If the players kill him, they will have a very hard putting a stop to his plans because the person who knew about them is now dead.
2. Organization. If the players port in, kill bad guy, then port out, they did nothing to damage the villian's infrastructure. There is nothing stopping the organization from rezzing the villian or someone else stepping up and leading, and the groups goes right back to business, except now they know about the PCs and have a grudge.
3. Decoys. Have multiple underlings that look, dress, and act like the target. Plays hell with both scrying and assassination attempts. See also, the clone spell.
Finally, no one is going to have defenses up all the time, but the warlord who leaves his lead lined castle to go on wage a war might just be paranoid enough to hire a wizard to protect him from magical assassins for the duration of the campaign.
You don't get to be the leader of a large guild of cutthroats and thieves without knowing how to protect yourself from assassination attempts, magical or otherwise. Odds are if the players teleported into the GMs bedroom, he would probably ask them which of hisrivals hired them, and offer to double the price. A bunch of do gooders who were planning to kill him for free might be the last thing he would expect, but he is always expecting someone to try and kill him.
The core problem with anti-scrying is that it basically requires a) spellcasters to accomplish and/or b) requires antagonists to be extremely static.
I personally dislike needing to pull out either a high-end caster or a spellcasting dragon/outsider in order to adequately challenge a 12+ level party. They are a pain to stat-up and I'd actually like to you know have a thief guildmaster be a credible opponent without needing to have him rely on a wizard hireling.
Permanent effects like forbiddance are nice. Many high end churches and temples will like have most if not all of the temple grounds shielded via layered forbiddance effects.
Lead sheeting is an okay defense, unless you assume that lead paint satisfies the requirement (personally the idea of paint containing such a small quantity of metal - probably less than 0.1% by weight - satisfying the need seems a violation of RAI) lead sheeting would be prohibitively costly and heavy outside of the most extreme examples. A couple of saferooms in a castle, I can buy and maybe even a crypt of a demi-lich but routine use of lead sheeting in construction likely requires extremely extensive mining/refining (psuedo-industrial) or some sort of magical analogue (eberron style magi-tech). FR gets by with it because everything is "magic" there. Worlds that are a bit less steampunk/high fantasy routine use of lead sheeting covering all the walls is a major suspension of disbelief.
Further lead sheeting makes your enemies extremely static. Carrying lead sheets to line the walls of a general's tent is probably stretching credibility beyond the breaking point. So realistically a general needs to have enough mid-to-high level casters to not only detect scrying but somehow foil teleportation after scrying.
Is the inside of a tent a static enough location to allow telleportation? What happens if they move the tent. Mobile people are more suceptable to some attacks while less succeptable to others. Its hard to plan an attack against someone who moves arround.
As for lead sheeting in buildings, federal guildlines for safe lead levels are .5%. Since lead paint in homes is outside that level, it would likely be >1%, as it was the primary colouring in older paints, making up the base white and also helping the paint to coat. Lead foil was used to line things like the aquaducts, so it wouldn't be that hard to find in many societies. If its known to be the only counter to wizard magic, anyone who has a secret would do it to prevent their home from being spied on. It would be a status symbol for wealthier homes. They had tin and gold foil for ceilings, why not lead, which has a use in their world? large buildings like castles have thick walls, often over 3 ft, of stone that are enough to block the scrying. As was pointed out to me in a detect magic vs traps thread I can't find now, >1 ft. thick stone walls are not uncommon in many regions of the world for pre-victorian archetecture for peasant homes. In a world that knows about magic, anyone who cares can easily bypass these spells. Putting the main base in a basement alone blocks many of them.
And don't forget the Star Trek limitations.
How many times were the sensors blocked by natural mineral deposits? How often could they not use the Transporters due to "energy fields"?
Well what about Eberron's manifest zones? A haunted building? Faerie Rings? Area's that have been Dispelled or Dismissed. Just having a bunch a magic wards and spells could interfere with either spell.
And of course the best option is the Contingency spell. Nothing say Firewall than a Wall of Fire spell linked to the contingency of someone telporting into this room. Illusions can be linked to a Scry sensor being present. Bring in the Chain Contingency spell and you can locate the where the scrying is coming from and counter attack.
And there are always room for more spells; Divert Teleport, Stasis Teleport, Teleport Glyph (Fatigue, Stun, Enervate, Petrify). And for the Diviners; Scry Symbol, Scry Flash, Sensor Trap (Fascinate, Blind, Disjunction).
The core problem with anti-scrying is that it basically requires a) spellcasters to accomplish and/or b) requires antagonists to be extremely static.
I personally dislike needing to pull out either a high-end caster or a spellcasting dragon/outsider in order to adequately challenge a 12+ level party. They are a pain to stat-up and I'd actually like to you know have a thief guildmaster be a credible opponent without needing to have him rely on a wizard hireling.
Permanent effects like forbiddance are nice. Many high end churches and temples will like have most if not all of the temple grounds shielded via layered forbiddance effects.
Lead sheeting is an okay defense, unless you assume that lead paint satisfies the requirement (personally the idea of paint containing such a small quantity of metal - probably less than 0.1% by weight - satisfying the need seems a violation of RAI) lead sheeting would be prohibitively costly and heavy outside of the most extreme examples. A couple of saferooms in a castle, I can buy and maybe even a crypt of a demi-lich but routine use of lead sheeting in construction likely requires extremely extensive mining/refining (psuedo-industrial) or some sort of magical analogue (eberron style magi-tech). FR gets by with it because everything is "magic" there. Worlds that are a bit less steampunk/high fantasy routine use of lead sheeting covering all the walls is a major suspension of disbelief.
Further lead sheeting makes your enemies extremely static. Carrying lead sheets to line the walls of a general's tent is probably stretching credibility beyond the breaking point. So realistically a general needs to have enough mid-to-high level casters to not only detect scrying but somehow foil teleportation after scrying.
What about magic items? It is possible to have a magic item that emulates any spell. If big bads are not casters themselves they are generally at least wealthy (after all where is all that player loot going to come from right?). Magic items that produce the concerned spells may be something important people in your world can obtain/have made for them? There might even be a market for it among nobles/important people in your world.
The spell "divination" (Cleric 4) can tip off the potential target up to a week in advance that such an attempt is going to be made which is pretty much the same thing as saying "You scry, you die."How so?
** spoiler omitted **
A cohort or hireling won't be able to make predictions for the villain, and any advice the villain can find out about herself is a piece of advice concerning a specific goal, event, or activity. I suppose "I'm looking to survive the week" is a goal, but a short phrase may not be everything a villain needs to avoid a teleporting assassin.
"Would it be a good idea to prepare for teleporting assassains who attempt to end my (master's) life this week?" would seem to qualify as a question about an event. Once the villain knows that an attack is likely, followup divinations can produce even more info, or at least give ample time to plan for the upcoming attack.
Once you reach a certain level of power there are just some security precautions that come with the territory. IRL, very wealthy people almost always carry kidnap insurance. Not because the want to, or even because they can, but because it's necessary. In a fantasy world, defending against scry and die is just one of those things.
What about magic items? It is possible to have a magic item that emulates any spell. If big bads are not casters themselves they are generally at least wealthy (after all where is all that player loot going to come from right?). Magic items that produce the concerned spells may be something important people in your world can obtain/have made for them? There might even be a market for it among nobles/important people in your world.
Magic items are a viable solution but the amulet of proof against detection location is 35k which is a massive investment in NPC resources if you use average NPC resources. That 35k taken to possibly negate one tactic will result in a large decrease in combat utility in other situations (probably no amulet of natural armor, worse armor and weapons, worse stat boosters) resulting in an easier encounter.
I'm not saying that high level NPCs and heads of state won't have layered protections around them but I personally don't like that the rules are written so that it's required to actually have to worry about it.
Scrying in and of itself is pretty cool, I like being able to gather info even at the risk of tipping off the bad guys. Teleport is a useful ability that keeps the PCs from having to footslog all over the place. What I don't like is how divination + teleport + initiative boosters can turn the game into a game of rocket tag.
Scry & Fry is a symptom of the dominance of nova casters not the problem in and of itself.
Or you could have villians white wash their castle walls, as would have been the proper thing to do. A coating of lead paint will foil many spells, and despite what people may think now, castles were painted.
Not that I want to be nitpicky nit-pickerson, but IIRC the "lead" in lead paint is actually lead oxide (lead rust), so depending on your definition of what constitutes "lead sheeting", lead oxide paint might too impure a substance. Although I don't see why "alchemical lead paint" or lead paint made specifically to ward a location from detection couldn't be a possibility. Just be sure, the kings heir, little Prince Knumbnutts doesn't lick the wall that tastes like pennies too much :D
What about magic items? It is possible to have a magic item that emulates any spell. If big bads are not casters themselves they are generally at least wealthy (after all where is all that player loot going to come from right?). Magic items that produce the concerned spells may be something important people in your world can obtain/have made for them? There might even be a market for it among nobles/important people in your world.Magic items are a viable solution but the amulet of proof against detection location is 35k which is a massive investment in NPC resources if you use average NPC resources. That 35k taken to possibly negate one tactic will result in a large decrease in combat utility in other situations (probably no amulet of natural armor, worse armor and weapons, worse stat boosters) resulting in an easier encounter.
I'm not saying that high level NPCs and heads of state won't have layered protections around them but I personally don't like that the rules are written so that it's required to actually have to worry about it.
Scrying in and of itself is pretty cool, I like being able to gather info even at the risk of tipping off the bad guys. Teleport is a useful ability that keeps the PCs from having to footslog all over the place. What I don't like is how divination + teleport + initiative boosters can turn the game into a game of rocket tag.
Scry & Fry is a symptom of the dominance of nova casters not the problem in and of itself.
And perhaps it is a problem of perspective.
To paraphrase from the "Einstein was a level 5 commoner" essay.In our world.
A level 1 character with an elite stat panel is rare(less than 1 in 20).
An 18 Intelligence would be roughly equal to an IQ of 180(maybe about 1 in a 100 million)
A level 5 character would be the best of the best.
Anything beyond level 5 would be superhuman.
People think of high level campaign with strong foes, and they automatically think level 20. Perhaps you should think about a campaign world where level 8 and 9 NPCs are the absolute best there are, and most character retire around level 10.
Then you don't have to worry about these issues, because teleportation would be nearly non-existant.
Lead again... all a fighter needs is lead. Commonly used in paints. Commonly used in children's toys too up until the 21st century. Heck even used in lots of plumbing.