This question is primarily directed to fellow DM's. The question?
How do you handle player wealth in your campaigns and why do you handle it in the manner you do?
I am curious on peoples opinion of this matter and how it has changed or even broken their games. I myself have found that if I allow the party to have even the "standard" level of wealth, as recommended, they always seem to have a lot of coin laying around and thus want to try and throw money around as far as trying to find someone selling powerful magic items, like all some poor wizard does is construct useful magical items for adventurers and sells them.
In this last campaign I have basically made a point to make sure the PC's have little money at all. Now I still throw in a few magic items here and there, and they are quick to sell the +1 short sword they found only to find that everyone around them is very poor and they are offered very little if nothing for it. I am trying to get them to focus more on the game and improving their characters from a role playing stand point rather than purchasing powerful magical items to make them "stronger". I believe the best item that any of them have at this point (they are level 11) has a +2 enchantment. At this point I think one character has amassed a small fortune of 3300 gp in various precious stones and coin. All of them have at least a +1 weapon, +1 armor, and at least 2 other magic items either a cloak, ring, belt, or something. I do leave a few healing potions around for them to find or buy, but they are of the lesser or moderate variety and I don't really consider potions treasure, they are consumables.
So far it seems to have worked and I feel the players have a better grasp of their characters, and one of the players has even taken the initiative to take craft magic arms and armor since he cannot find a suitable magic user to buy from.
What about you folks?
Having wealthy characters is not an inconvenient.
That can be an opportunity to run adventures in the high spheres of the society, at the court, among courtisans and nobles.
This environment can be rich in intrigues.
About what the characters are doing with their money, well, if they spend it all, they won't be rich anymore.
But if they acquire property, hostels, manors, castles and the like, how could that disturb the game? There again it gives story opportunities.
About magic items... well, the solution is simple : No magic shop.
Since my group works with rotating GMs in the same campaign, we have adhered to strict WBL. Every level, you have to essentially sell all your gear and then buy what you want with your new level worth of funds. We just recently went from level 6 to level 7. At level 6, we had 16k in gear. For level 7, we will have 23.5k. Since each adventure produces a level and each adventure is spaced by several months time, we have fluffed the excess/shorted funds being normalized as either earning money in the off time or needing to take care of some issue, which set you to the wealth needed at your level.
Two of our players have taken crafting feats to make sure that they can custom make/combine items. The other six players have not and simply choose items from the book. If two characters are spending the off time together and they have enough time, one can craft an item for the other (using slightly modified crafting rules).
We play in a relatively low magic world (rather similar to Forgotten Realms), so there aren't Magick Shoppes in every town. However, given enough time, most things can be found or made.
This system seems to work really well for us.
I handle it arbitrarily.
In all seriousness, I find it much easier to adjust to players' actual performance with whatever gear they have than to try and distribute enough cash value in the adventures to keep them at "appropriate" levels.
If I am running an Adventure Path, they find whatever treasure is listed that they happen to discover/loot. If I am running a homebrew, I offer rewards and treasure finds that I feel are in line with my economic assumptions — entirely disregarding the guidelines offered in the DMG.
What I find is, I have no idea how wealthy my party is when liquidated — but I know how much cash they have on hand and this allows me to balance their purchases. Their performance at whatever wealth level they have is something I assess post-hoc and correct if necessary.
If they are blasting through encounters of their own CR, I increase the challenge, but I don't worry about the treasure. This is the most error-proof method in my estimation, because any formula I derive to indicate wealth-to-challenge ratio could be flawed, but tests against actual challenges are a pretty good indicator.
I have always started my players off with the wealth by level charts to determine their starting gold, then just went from there. this insured that each player had the same ammount to work with to keep it fair, but allowed them to accumulate as much wealth as they could manage. so if they figure out a way to steal the crown jewels from the kings vault, and succsesfuly pawn them, more power to em.
Saw the subject line and had to interject humor:
I love player wealth! I get them to buy me miniatures and rulebooks, and when we order pizza it's on their dime!
As for a serious answer to the question . . . the same things happen to the PCs as to people in real life who fall into extreme amounts of money. The con artists come out of the woodwork, friends suddenly need lots of help, taxes get imposed (my favorite thus far: "Whaddya mean you have a tax on selling weapons in the city? That wasn't there last week!" Reply: "Last week there wasn't someone trying to offload the Broken Tooth Tribe's equipment and putting our citizens out of business. Talk to the Guild if you don't like it. Until then, it'll be five gold per weapon you bring into the city.")
In defense of players, it sucks to work as hard as we make our characters work only to find d6 copper pieces and d3 silver pieces per giant we just eliminated. There are enough options to separate a character from his money that don't involve stinginess on the DM's part. Let the characters live like kings for a week, and then wake up and realize that they've just blown through 1k in gold when the bard at the tavern sang a song about their latest heroics, implored them to buy a round of drinks for the patrons as a show of solidarity with the common man, and guilted them into a 'loan' for a new lute. Call it the "Adventurer Patronage Project" for extra groans.
I have no problem with characters having wealth appropriate for their level according to the standard table. I even combine that with generous character generation parameters and the ability to spend their money freely (i.e. they won't have to hunt down a +2 strength item, or even a +6 one).
I can still keep them in line and challenge them and it keeps everybody happy.
As handling wealth: I have actually tied money gained to XP gained. I don't roll for treasure or anything. If they get XP, they get GP. I usually mention what items the enemies have, if they want to "buy" something on the spot (they can even "overdraw their account" in this way, because the item is there - though they'll have to "pay off that debt" before they can purchase anything else), but otherwise they don't have to track what they take with them.
It's an abstract system, of course, and it is understand that the actual characters don't just find a steady amount of coin (they might find nothing in one fight but the next enemy might be really rich), but we're all okay with it - in fact, everyone loves it.
The old "I'll dump my portable hole's contents onto the store floor and start haggling, give me half an hour to get all the selling prices so I can see how much we get from this" is just gone, which is a lot of time previously wasted free to do fun stuff like having archery contests in brothels (actually happened - well, sort of: The party archer shot a lot of enemy archers while the party warrior arcanist was in a separee getting serviced by a hooker - he did join the rest of the party for the boss fight, though), fall down slopes into cacti, or play tourist guide with no actual knowledge of the city and its landmarks whatsoever!
And by the way: the warrior arcanist has redefined "The two 'F-reactions' in the face of danger" (it used to be fight or flight), my players (not the characters) have threatened me with physical harm if I ever use another pugwampi, and tourists in Magnimar still climb the Irespan to throw coppers into the bay, to the confusion and concern of the safety-obsessed city watch. :D
|
Very difficult balancing act. You need to strike a balance between wealth by level and organic loot gained from adventuring. Too far below WBL and you get a revolt/TPK, too high and it becomes a cakewalk.
With organic loot, you tend to get piles of the same crappy low level items and then some super valuable ones that tend to appeal only to the same one or two classes (too many caster or fighter BBEG's with powerful items and the treasure distribution gets lopsided).
My DMmmy druthers are:
1) loot and wealth obtained organically
2) audit characters every 2 levels for appropriate WBL
3) adjust those who are too far below WBL with prezzies/cash
4) curb organic loot for characters too high above WBL
This, of course, requires that the players understand and consent to your approach. Suddenly dropping a bag of cash on the rogue (lucky night of cards) after the adventure might raise some eyebrows, even if the fighter just got fortified full plate and the wizard got a staff of fire from the BBEGs.
I tend towards wealth by level. If you deviate too far from the norms a lot of the assumptions of the game tend to get thrown off. CR appropriate monsters are often more difficult, the casters need to spend more slots on common buffs, gear dependent classes like the fighter tend to get gimped, etc.
I'm not saying it can't be done but that most of the time it's easier just going with WBL.
In general the combination of gear costs and upkeep expenses tend to keep the PCs relatively gear rich/cash poor.
From your post, this isn't really about character wealth. It's about the usual high-magic/low-magic debate.
In my game, we play by the rules with almost no exceptions. Characters have the wealth that the book says they should have, and they're generally allowed to spend that wealth on the items that are in the book. It's reasonable to now allow a shopping spree in the middle of a forest, but once characters have access to major cities with markets I don't impose arbitrary restrictions to fit what I want to see.
Wealth is just another way for players to customize their characters, so those characters can do things that are interesting to players.
We're normally a simulationist group, but when it comes to things like this, we're firmly aware that it's a game, and the game is balanced as written.
I made things a lot easier on myself (as DM) by doing this:
WARNING MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT FOLLOWS!!!
I've yet to meet a DM who didn't go to great pains to ensure that his or her players received the appropriate reward for their endeavors. Few things kill a campaign more quickly than too much, or too little, treasure. Unfortunately, placing treasure and ensuring that the characters actually receive it in the appropriate amount is a time consuming and often frustrating endeavor. I came up with this system to help in my campaign.
The difference between Combat Wealth and Character Wealth
Combat wealth refers to anything that the characters carry with them or use regularly on adventures. Magic items, spell books, tools to augment skills, etc., are all combat wealth. Combat wealth is based on the character's level and follows the guidelines in the Core Rules.
Character Wealth refers to anything that isn't the above. Businesses, keeps, investments, caches of weapons and magic items, herds or animals, land grants, apartments, safe houses, anything that isn't available to the characters during adventures is character wealth. Character wealth is unlimited.
Why use this system?
The purpose of this alternative wealth system is threefold.
First, it allows the PC's to have interests and roleplaying opportunities outside of adventuring, without having to sacrifice combat effectiveness. A PC with a large herd of horses, a ranch house, and a large parcel of land is no more combat effective than one without such assets. If the DM only provides treasure according to the normal wealth guidelines, however, the PC with a 'life,' so to speak, has less wealth available to spend on items or extra cash. As much as characters tend to like the idea of having a keep to use as a base of operations, they are far less likely to take the option if it means they actually become less powerful as a result. The purpose of this system is simply to allow the PCs the opportunity to have access to additional wealth that does not affect game balance but does give the players the maximum opportunity to roleplay outside of combat, if they want it.
Second, this system actually makes the DM's job easier. Instead of having to constantly keep track of how much treasure is awarded at each and every encounter, adjust for missed/destroyed items or wealth, dangle huge treasures as a reward only to limit the actual value of the loot later (in order to not violate wealth guidelines and risk unbalancing the game), the DM can simply place whatever amount of treasure he/she feels is appropriate for the encounter. The lower level evil baron's moathouse may very well have an enormous amount of treasure as benefitting his noble status, and the PC's are welcome to loot every inch of it. Or take the entire structure for themselves, if they can get away with it. What this system doesn't allow the PCs to do, is to then use that wealth to unbalance the game, making their characters more powerful than is appropriate at any given level.
Finally, this system (while certainly not perfect) adresses some of the issues raised by the current economic system. I'll illustrate this with a few examples:
Stinkus the Barbarian has a problem when he decides to sell his trusty blade of hippie doom. He purchased (or found) the item which has a market price of 10,000 gp. When he sells it, he only receives half that price, or 5,000 gp. Unless the DM agrees to give him the difference in additional treasure at the next level to make up for the 5,000 gp loss, Stinkus will always be 5,000 gp behind the recommended wealth guidelines as per the Core Rules.
Mumbles the wizard has an expected character wealth of 10,000 gp and a similar problem to Stinkus. The DM has ensured that his treasure on the previous level is exactly this amount. He uses all 10,000 to research some spells that he wants but can't find. Despite the fact that the same spells, if found in an enemy's spellbook, would only be worth a fraction of the cost that Mumbles paid for them, he will always be effectively 10,000 gp behind the other characters.
Lemons, the party artificer, has some downtime between adventures while he waits for Mumbles to complete his spell research. Lemons has assigned a lot of skill points so that he can be a master crafter. By practising his profession he can earn thousands of gold pieces and decides to do so (It's a long break). His industriousness is rewarded, however, by requiring that the DM reduce his share of the treasure to keep the character's wealth in line with everyone else. Crafting a custom item for Hypocriticus the paladin only exacerbates the situation. Lemons makes thousands in profit from the sale, but gets a reduced amount of loot in the next adventure to balance out the wealth guidelines. Lemons feels like a sucker.
Lucky, a rogue, spends much of his time scouting ahead of the rest of the party. Whenever possible he snags a little extra treasure as a reward for this dangerous task. Occassionally he also steals a small item or two from other party members. Unfortunately, this forces his long suffering DM to reduce his share of the treasure to keep him in the wealth guidelines, which, in Lucky's oppinion, kind of defeats the purpose. The DM must also increase the treasure of other party members to bring them back up to the guidelines. Whatever Lucky does, the result is the same, so Lucky's player quickly decides it's not worth the effort or the risk.
How the system works in-game
At the begining of each level the DM tells the character what the wealth guidelines are for the new level. The character then purchases or chooses the items and cash that he or she wants to have, limited by the wealth guidelines in the Core Rules and by what he or she has available to choose from. This is now 'Combat Wealth.' Any additional is 'Character Wealth'. Here are two examples.
Lucky the rogue and Hypocriticus the paladin are the sole surviving characters at the end of an adventure. Working diligently, they haul the massive dragon's hoard out of the caves and into town. Through no fault of their own (blame Mumbles), they have lost all of their accumulated gear. Each character has an expected combat wealth (as per the wealth guidelines in the Core Rules for their new level) of 20,000 gp. The dragon's hoard is easily 10 times that. After dividing equally (at least according to Lucky), the Paladin has 100,000 gp and the Rogue has 150,000 (I told you he was lucky). Each character can spend 20,000 gp for new gear, magic items, and cash on hand, limited only by what items are in the hoard or by what they can buy in town. They can then do whatever they want with the additional. If Hypocriticus covets (bad Paladin, bad!) the gem encrusted Holy Symbol of Sarenrae, with a marketprice of 2,000 gp that was found in the hoard, he claims the item and deducts 2,000 gp from his combat wealth.
The Paladin claims and purchases items up to his wealth guidelines limits. Not being a big spender, he only keeps a few hundred in gold as 'cash on hand', which is also charged against combat wealth. He gives all of his additional, or character wealth, to the church and improves his stature within the heirarchy, but doesn't net himself anything he can actually use in the short term. If he wants to get spells cast for some reason, the local priest is still going to want to get paid. The church certainly might give greater weight to the words of such an obviously pious member if a situation should arise in the future, or even grant a 'loan' should the next level's worth of loot be lower than expected for the character. In the short term, however, the additional wealth is effectively 'roleplayed' away, but without hurting the character's combat effectiveness.
Lucky is a little more economically savvy and wants to work toward his eventual retirement. He uses 20,000 gp to re-equip himself appropriately, including a few thousand gold pieces as 'running around' money. This reduces his combat wealth, but allows him the flexibility of buying additional potions or small items that he might need once he determines the nature of the the next adventure. He takes 30,000 gp and buries it somewhere (a cache), in case he finds himself in the middle of an adventure stripped of his stuff again. He takes 50,000 gp and buys a tavern on the outskirts of town, providing a base of operations for future adventures, and, incidentally, a wealth of roleplaying opportunities for both the players and the DM. The remaining 50,000 he deposits with a well known (and slightly-less-shady-than-most) money lender that he knows. This wealth is effectively out of play until the character advances to a new level. If the next adventure is a disaster for Lucky, he can get back those funds in order to make up for a shortfall in his treasure. He could also use them to expand his business. Regardless of what he does, he is still limited by the combat wealth guidelines for what he chooses to use personally.
A final note
Lots of adventures have been written that permit a successful party to "keep the keep," so to speak, without worrying about how much it costs. If that system works for you, then "great!" My players and I found it unsatisfactory, however. They seem to really enjoy managing the affairs of their estates, even going on additional adventures to provide funds for new property and businesses. As a longtime DM, I can say with certainty that having your players go looking for adventures to add to, or safeguard, their base of operations is a real treat. This system doesn't work for all games, of course. For some players, knowing that theoretically they have access to assets that they are not actually able to use to defeat the BBEG, will be very frustrated. In the end, of course, whatever system works for you is the one that should be used. This one works for us.
*****
Whew. In case anyone actually read the whole thing, I also have a brief set of rules dealing with excess assets in land, businesses and investments, and caches. I'm happy to share them if anyone is interested.
Wow.
These are all very useful and insightful answers to the question. There are more than a few very good ideas that I think I will try to incorporate into my game and see how it goes.
Thanks for the quality responses.
[snip]
This is pretty close to what we started doing in our 1-20 campaign. Strict WBL for all the stuff you can carry, but you are assumed to be heroes and people of renown in the kingdoms. You need a keep, and at least a barony or duchy somewhere. So you get one. The money required to maintain it is just assumed to come from the excess loot you had to sell in order to keep you within the WBL. If you were short this level (for some reason), then your investments at home turned a profit.
My character, currently a homeless exile from his birthland, will be buying himself a small bit of acreage next level and, over the course of the next half dozen levels, building himself a small city to store his magic baubles and dusty tomes in. This city will be complete with peasants, town guards, a temple to his goddess, a blacksmith and an inn for travelers. Unless I'm wanting some major magic item for this hamlet, it doesn't cost me from my WBL. If I want them to have golem factory or a teleportation ring or something, then I have to fork over the cash. Otherwise, it all comes from the excess loot I have each level.
Another thing we've done is that, after second or third level, mundane items that cost less than 250 gold are considered negligible and you can have as many as can be considered reasonable. We also don't bother with the base weapon/armor costs for magic weapons/armor. When you are pulling down tens of thousands of gold, does the extra 315 gold for the masterwork part of the +3 longsword you are carrying really matter?