cyrusduane |
Has anyone's Pathfinder RPG game reached 15th level or higher? If so, what is your experience so far, both from the player and GM perspective, under the rules?
Better than 3.5 at higher levels for speed, ease of play and fun factor. (GM perspective)
Faster combats that 4E at the same level (assuming PC understanding of both systems is equal)
Less of a feeling that you need to take a prestige class to stay relevant. 15+ levels in a single class is awesome.
Teach |
My SD campaign finished at level 15.
It's fun - but then again, I always liked high-level play, behind the screen as well as in front of it.
One thing: prismatic sprays and rooms full of enemies don't go well together. Other than that, I think it works pretty well, as long as everyone knows their roles well enough.
The resident power-gamer was very powerful, but that didn't start at level 15, it started at level 1. He did fight most of the final fight with 8 negative levels, which put a serious damper on his damage output (but that's a natural reaction to being perceived as the biggest threat by the enemy, especially if you demonstrate it to the BBEG when said BBEG can observe you AND YOU KNOW IT :D)
There can be problems. If you don't observe your players' performance and react to it, you might come to a point where each of the party's warrior types can go through a critter with a supposedly difficult CR in a single round worth of attacks, or stuff like this.
joela |
joela wrote:Has anyone's Pathfinder RPG game reached 15th level or higher? If so, what is your experience so far, both from the player and GM perspective, under the rules?Better than 3.5 at higher levels for speed, ease of play and fun factor. (GM perspective)
Details! Higher-level prep 3.x is/was usually considered a pain.
Faster combats that 4E at the same level (assuming PC understanding of both systems is equal)
Really? Oh, I think I understand. When I played higher 4e PCs, the power choice and combos could take a while to abjucate.
Robert Young |
My philosophy is that 15-16 is the endgame, and 17-20 are really just there for NPC villains. My PCs reaching 15 is what I aim for, and I don't think I will ever run them all the way to 20... or if I do it will be the exception.
Curious to see what others say though...
Same here, with the same level caps. We'll keep playing with those PC's, just without level advancement.
The Weave05 |
I recently ended a campaign at level 16, and I'll be honest: things got a little swingy.
As a DM, it takes a lot of skill (more than I likely have) to keep the game in check at those levels. If you haven't checked out the playtest with Drakli, I strongly suggest you do... he's a great example of a DM who knows how to handle higher level play and keep it fun and engaging.
One of my primary concerns was keeping the two full spellcasters in check. There is very little they can't do, and sometimes it's tough to balance the limelight between them and the more "mundane" classes, like a fighter or monk (which is what I had). But when it came to combat, unless the spellcasters had ample preparation and warning, the melee classes stole the show. The Fighter is a very solid class at higher levels, able to tank well and dish out damage. The Monk was good too, but I had to work harder to provide him with special situations where he could shine above others (using his incredible jump checks to avoid obstacles, running to catch fleeing enemies, etc.)
I had a tough time keeping track of everything, but I think any DM worth his salt could've done better than me. I was making silly mistakes (messing up initiative counts, forgetting to deal ongoing bleed damage on a turn, misremembering the duration of certain spells, etc.) that could've been avoided if I had taken a little more time to gather my thoughts. Granted, its worth noting as you really need to do that in a high level game: get yourself together. Stay focused, stay on track. When the party wizard can cast teleport so many times per day, sometimes that long trek you had planned for them might not work out (well, if they're familiar with their destination). In other words, know what the PCs are capable of. It's surprisingly tough, even if it's limited to only so many splat/core books (you never know what core spell might sneak by under your nose that catches you off guard!).
There's a lot more ways to say "No" at higher levels, and while this might be a good thing at first, sometimes it works against you. At first I thought it would be fun to challenge my players by putting them up against a Golem to limit their spellcasting prowess, but pretty soon the players were somewhat frustrated at their sudden drop in usefulness. Sure, I could've handled it better, and the next golem fight was sure to include a few humanoid fodder to appease them, but I'm of the mind that you shouldn't be so quick to deny the players their right to have fun. I think this just goes back to my "knowing what your doing" thing, so just be careful to look over the monsters you throw them up against.
As far as player perspectives go, I can't say much. I'm not a player! I never have been (I like to think that means I'm a good DM, but the sad reality is that they're all really bad at it :]). I hope this helps!
DragonBringerX |
[haven't posted here in a long time]
i am currently running a 18th level game with plans to end around 22 - 25. while most might drop their jaws at the thought, i have 2 advantages. 1) i only have one player in the game (yes a 1 on 1 game). and 2) i've run epic games (many) times before.
his built is fighter/wizard (diviner)/abjurant champion/eldritch knight. this is a person who can obtain a skill check result of 70+, reach an AC of 50, make 4 to 5 attacks a around and still get off a true strike/power attack combo. he can teleport anywhere in the galaxay (a far future space opera game btw), and commune with a deity. A normal person would FREAK at the concept of running such a game, let along run it smoothly.
My advice is this, don't freak out. don't build a npc vilian to last, outdo, or "surprise" your players. let them have their high-level easy victories. So yes, the killed 4 Cr 16's in a round, could the not kill 4 CR 1/2's when their level 1? If you want to knock 'em around a bit, give them story to shock them, and a threat on a grand scale.
Details: don't "plan" for anything. seriously, stop planning. just calm down, relax, and use your logic and imagination. so the players buy a map (hack a satellite in my game), see their destination a teleport there...GREAT! the story moves on and you don't get frustrated because that mountain pass encounter wont happen now.
Plan a few encounters, but list no details, just creatures/npc's. don't have plans for the where it will be, when it will be, just have them ready for "if" you feel you need to challenge them. then, no matter how they get there (fly, teleport, earth glide, walk, buy a boat) you'll have an encounter for on-the-way or when they arrive.
I could go on, but i wont unless you want more.
joela |
Link to Drakli's playtest
From the above thread:
Dang, it is amazing how many rules a GM has to know in order for everything to happen perfectly at such a high level.
Matrixryu's posts is very, very telling. Thanks!
Funkytrip |
Our party started at 4 last year and now reached lvl 14/15. We have some house rules in place to prevent stat-inflation (only 1 stat-enhancing item allowed which may only enhance 1 stat and prices has doubled for those items) so nobody walks around with INT 30+ or something and nobody is completely min/maxing. Encounters are often quite messy and sudden with little time to prepare. This keeps casters in check a bit.
My experience is that melee classes do way more damage on single targets (around 25-40 per hit) while a caster would do more area damage, but by level 15 most mobs have very high saves & resistances so end result is mostly 20-30 damage to several targets. Save or die spells are pretty useless at this level since most mobs save at +20 against a DC24-25 for the highest level spells. So our casters mostly buff, get rid of fodder and do battlefield control while melee whacks on the BBEG. This keeps casters in check and everybody seems to be contributing evenly. Outside combat our casters have lots of utility of course, but melee are generally the talkers in the party so usefulness is still divided nicely.
What is slightly annoying is the heavy amount of teleportation. It really becomes a crutch. We all have boots o' hopping, teleport abilities and the enemies generally too. It screws grappling, walls, AoO's and the like. It makes the world incredibly small too.
If I ever run a campaign my world would be teleport free. If you want to go somewhere, you walk or fly :D
number6 |
Has anyone's Pathfinder RPG game reached 15th level or higher? If so, what is your experience so far, both from the player and GM perspective, under the rules?
I'm both a player and GM.
I dropped out for a long time after 2nd edition, so coming into 3.5 (3.75)at 15th level has blown me away.... in all the wrong ways.
As a player I'm currently in the adventure path with Karzoug.
High Level Combat is not epic imo, it seems to be win initiative and kill or be killed. Power Gaming seems necessary, as a base class using the core book is most likely doomed to failure. Where is the 20 rounds of dragon fighting from 2nd Edition...oh wait we defeated a Linnorm in a single round when our Pouncing Fighter Death Dude won Init and crushed it. Yeehaw.
Conversly, if the Linnorm went crazy on the party it coulda been "You'll be dead" (best line in SW).
So for the next Pathfinder Campaign I've requested the GM deny us more than 2-3 sourcebooks to limit spells and feats etc. As well as limiting the number of classes we can take (3 to 4 for multiclassing), and finally and most importantly, no buying magic items unless one has a really high diplomacy and lots of down time to search and roll those DCs.
I am running my Campaign ala low magic using 3.75 rules, and am working to mitigate high level magic sillyness through fear of repurcusions from various "groups" (it's my own gameworld). I've also pushed flying and invisibility up a level so to limit access to key game breakers (imo anyways).
cyrusduane |
cyrusduane wrote:joela wrote:Has anyone's Pathfinder RPG game reached 15th level or higher? If so, what is your experience so far, both from the player and GM perspective, under the rules?Better than 3.5 at higher levels for speed, ease of play and fun factor. (GM perspective)Details! Higher-level prep 3.x is/was usually considered a pain.
cyrusduane wrote:Faster combats that 4E at the same level (assuming PC understanding of both systems is equal)Really? Oh, I think I understand. When I played higher 4e PCs, the power choice and combos could take a while to abjucate.
For an example of faster play over 3.5: Grappling and any special combat manuvers usually became more of a headache the higher level PCs and Monsters got. CMB and CMD really leveled that impact down nicely. Also, Since the material has also been playtested a lot more, there is less high level power creep from outside sources that throws wrenchs into the works.
4E: For the record, I like it 4e as game (even though everyone in my area plays Pathfinder now over 4E) but it just seems that the sheer use of the power cards infront of you slows up the game a bit at higher levels and turns it into a resource mgt. card game.
Just my $0.02.
In the end it's all about personal preferance. Pathfinder gives those I play with the high action fantasy adventure that gives us the best experience at all levels.
joela |
CMB and CMD really leveled that impact down nicely. Also, Since the material has also been playtested a lot more, there is less high level power creep from outside sources that throws wrenchs into the works.
Good to know. And yes; the number of power cards can be a bit daunting at times but more so if you're unfamiliar with your PC and its capabilities.
The Weave05 |
The Weave05 wrote:I hope this helps!Very. Thanks, The Weave05! If you ever have the time, could you provide more specifics? I especially like your points on the spellcasters having to be prepared and the teleports.
Sure!
My campaign involved a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge, a Monk, a Fighter, and an Enchantment specialized Wizard all level 16.
Each class had its own hurdles and difficulties associated with it, so I'll try and go through them and provide some specifics for each.
The Enchanter was the most difficult to DM for, by far. What I mean by this is that he provided me with the largest challenge to make combat and noncombat situations fun for his specialized character. Like I said before, there's a lot of ways to say No at higher levels, and Enchantment characters may be the most vulnerable to this. When they fought the Golems, he had very few things he could do that revolved around his character's specialty: control. Certain monsters may either be completely vulnerable to Dominate, or they may be immune; I found very little mid-ground between the two. Also, solo encounters were terrible: one example was a fight I had prepared with a Planetar who was supposed to provide an epic and climactic fight for them. One critical failure later, he was under the Enchanter's control.
It was only later that I looked up under the Angel subtype that it was said to be effected against Magic Circle Against Evil (which would have given him another save against his Dominate and most likely allowed him to break free). This was my fault, but it goes back to my "Know your stuff" thing, because it really makes a crucial difference at higher level gameplay.
Also, yes, the Enchanter was evil, but everyone else was good, actually. We play at a very mature level, so we don't simply assume paladins will go around yelling "EVIIIIIIIL!" and smiting them. I regularly make simple commoners evil, but they may still help people and seem "normal" or what have you.
The Mystic Theurge would have been much more difficult if he had the full spellcasting potential he would've gotten had he stuck to a single class. In the end, I was quite thankful for this, but his versatility and spells per day were unparalleled. Not once did he run out of spells, and he was fairly impossible to predict with all those spells available to him (he could pick and choose which ones he prepared each day). He usually stuck to evocation and cure spells, because the party needed those most often, but every once in a while he'd throw down a Magic Circle Against so-and-so, an Invisibility, or something else less predictable.
I don't know if I have any really iconic examples of him doing this, because he pretty much threw me off-guard the whole campaign. He was tough, but manageable. Against anything with immunity to magic (like the golem), he was largely countered, since he usually stuck to evocation stuff (things that allow SR), and would only carry one or two spells that might be able to do something to it.
The Monk was next in line for difficulty, but he was far below the Enchanter or Mystic Theurge. He was noticeably worse than any of the other party members, and he knew it. In fact, he kind of liked it! He knew that he could only outshine them in very specific circumstances, where he could use his superior speed, ability to survive most falls, or his ability to punch through solid objects, his immunity to poisons, and their ilk. In one circumstance, he intervened in a King taking a sip from a poisoned drink by switching the cups and drinking it instead. He was happy because he was the only one who could do that, and it made him feel special. At other times, when the enemies were peppering them with arrows or other ranged attacks, he would cover the distance and engage them long enough for the other more fragile members of the party to get into safe cover or cast a wall spell or something. Meanwhile, the fighter would take his turn getting there halfway, and then vital strike the next round, when the Monk, after having taken a beating, could easily tumble (or Abundant Step) out.
The Fighter was the easiest. I knew exactly what he was capable of, how to effectively challenge him without rendering him useless, and keep play fun for him. He was a man of simple tastes: he dealt the damage and soaked up the hits. He liked that. The more epic I made his criticals look, the more he smiled. I have little to say about him... he really had fun all around and was easy to appease. Oh, it should be made known that I allow 4 skill points per level instead of the minimal 2, so he had some skill points to spend on social skills. This allowed him to have more fun outside of combat, being the diplomatic type.
I hope this helped to cover some more specifics... if you were looking for something else, just let me know!
Grey Lensman |
A Mystic Theurge can be a very tricky class to have in your game, especially if the character gets his hands on any pearls of power or a ring of wizardry.
The sheer volume of spells a MyTh (this nickname was earned by having to listen to all the "sky is falling-it will destroy the game" types when the class first appeared)can prepare can quickly turn mind-boggling. With a few items to boost the number of spells slots, you can quickly have a character who normally preps obscure, limited use spells "just in case". So that monster you were thinking of who is all but invulnerable except to one normally useless spell? The MyTh probably has that very spell prepared.
Instead of high powered spells, you end up with a magic tool-box with a very good chance of having just the right thing for the job. Be prepared for this.
Which reminds me, someday I have to get around to playing one and seeing if I can manage to drive my DM crazy. The goal? To cast every single spell in the core book at least once before the campaign ends.......
Robert Young |
The Enchanter was the most difficult to DM for, by far. What I mean by this is that he provided me with the largest challenge to make combat and noncombat situations fun for his specialized character. Like I said before, there's a lot of ways to say No at higher levels, and Enchantment characters may be the most vulnerable to this. When they fought the Golems, he had very few things he could do that revolved around his character's specialty: control. Certain monsters may either be completely vulnerable to Dominate, or they may be immune; I found very little mid-ground between the two. Also, solo encounters were terrible: one example was a fight I had prepared with a Planetar who was supposed to provide an epic and climactic fight for them. One critical failure later, he was under the Enchanter's control.
It was only later that I looked up under the Angel subtype that it was said to be effected against Magic Circle Against Evil (which would have given him another save against his Dominate and most likely allowed him to break free). This was my fault, but it goes back to my "Know your stuff" thing, because it really makes a crucial difference at higher level gameplay.
An Angel's Magic Circle protective aura suppresses an evil Enchanter's ability to exert ANY mental control over the Angel (and anyone else within that effect's 20 ft radius area), while providing a +4 bonus to the save against the Enchanter's dominate in the first place. But the save bonus here is practically irrelevant, as there is no expiring duration of the Angel's aura for the dominate to outlast.
LazarX |
My philosophy is that 15-16 is the endgame, and 17-20 are really just there for NPC villains. My PCs reaching 15 is what I aim for, and I don't think I will ever run them all the way to 20... or if I do it will be the exception.
Curious to see what others say though...
From what I remember I've always suspected that that was TSR's viewpoint way back in 1st edition as well. Although I think back then the expected PC cap was in the 9-11 range.
psionichamster |
Having run a PFRPG Game from 1-16 (Curse of the Crimson Throne), playing in an Alpha then to Beta game from 2-18, and Second Darkness (Beta Rules) from 1-16 (heading to the "last battle" this Sunday), a few things have really stood out:
Class-wise, straight-classed characters really shine. Our Fighter in CotCT was all but untouchable by most opponents, and capable of dishing out dual-wielded destruction quite readily. The 2 Clerics (both of Nethys, one CN and one NE) were always ready to patch up any damage sustained and/or throw out a save-or-die type spell.
The Rogue/Fighter Gunslinger (one thing I will never allow again is the PF "Rifle" -19-20/x3 crit? nope, never again) was able to dish out ranged hurt with the best of them.
Finally, the Diviner was capable of some really ridiculous things. Now, he was playing a paranoid, highly intelligent Diviner with crafting feats and crazy spellcraft...able to make pretty much anything he wanted and know when and where it would be necessary. The ability to act in the surprise round was very very nice, since most combats started with a Gunslinger rifle-shot.
Feat wise, Power Attack, Deadly Aim, and the like are fantastic for both NPC and PC use...consistently adding to damage and keeping the output on par with the HP (mostly....)
Skill wise, the consolidation of the various skills has really simplified a LOT of things...no longer does the Bard NOT have gather Info, or the Rogue NOT have Open Lock or Disable Device (assuming they're playing true to form)
We seem attracted to Gnomes a LOT (at least 1, if not 2 in pretty much every party. Most recently, just started a new Rise of the Runelords game with 3 Gnomes and 2 Humans in the party), but all the races are cool.
As far as RUNNING the game, there's not too much difference from a high level 3.5ed game. Casters dominate most of the fights, with the exception that Casting Defensively is now reasonably difficult. Melee-based characters with Reach can really mess up those squishy casters, as can volley-fire from dedicated ranged-based characters (Ranger+Manyshot+Rapid Shot+Haste+Favored Enemy+Favored Terrain=Very Very Dead Caster), so the parity for death potential is still mostly there.
High level becomes more of an issue of Immunities, Resistances, and the various means to ignore certain things. (Case in point, recently encountered 16 Clerics all ready to cast spells...the only reason we survived the opening volley was because the Bard and Sorcerer had Protection from Fire up and the Rogue was able to Evade the Firestorms). Direct damage from PC's stacks up very very quickly, and if properly optimized, a fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger can drop an appropriate level challenge rather easily.
For the DM:
1: Know your NPC's. Simply put, read the stat blocks, read them again, and then try to know the AC, Atk Bonus, Save Bonus, and HP of each mook/boss/BBEG off the top of your head. You will fail, but if your knowledge is such that you need only momentary reminders, combat will go faster. If using NPC spellcasters (a necessity, in my opinion...whether monsters with Spell Like Abilities or NPC's with actual class levels), know their opening round attacks/spell-combos, the next couple of actions, a contingency plan, and an escape plan (if appropriate).
Example: Bob the Sorcerer 6 has Fireball, Scorching Ray, and Magic Missile for attack spells. He also knows Shield, Mage Armor, Grease, and Invisibility. When 1st encountered, he should have his defensive spells up, possibly also invisible. His 1st round is to cast Fireball on a group of PC's, or Scorching Ray on solo targets. He then hits and moves with his attack spells until at <50% HP, when he casts Invisibility again (if possible) and flees
As the level goes higher, those plans become more and more complicated. They should likely stay similar, though, and as simple as you can arrange.
2: Use terrain to your advantage. Sure, a flat plane is OK to fight on, but boring. If the PC's have to balance on a narrow beam while fighting ninja-frog monsters, or on the edge of a crumbling masonry wall, the fight will stick in the minds of your players much more. Some of the most memorable fights from the AP's have been: On top of a tower, which then dislodged and rolled down a hill. My rogue rode the thing down the whole time cheering and yelling, easily cementing that encounter as one of my favorites. Another fight took place inside a tall, crumbling clocktower, where we had to dodge a falling bell and navigate broken stairways while fighting things that tried to knock us off.
3: Let the PC's shine. Sometimes, it's for the best to let them slaughter those lower-level challenges without too much hassle. This is particularly great after a long, hard-fought battle to secure some location/terrain; riding high on the hog, as it were, the players' fun increases when they win. Don't forget to use Undead for the Cleric, Traps and Locks for the Rogue, Social Skill encounters for the Bard, and tricky research/knowledge type stuff for the Wizards. This goes hand in hand with the next tip:
4: Know your PC's. Know what a 17th lvl Wizard CAN do, same as a 6th lvl Fighter. They are in the Core Rules, so get to know them. You don't need to know each and every little facet of the PC, that's the player's job, but have a general idea of what each can do. This way, you can tailor encounters or events to each one.
5: Finally, don't forget you get to have fun too. Too often, DM'ing becomes more of a chore than a game (for me, this is usually when the NPC's start getting 8th and 9th lvl spells or more than 4 attacks. There's just too much to keep track of at once, and I get frustrated at not having everything in my head at once....) If it seems like your group is all about talky time and sneaking around stealing, play to their strengths and go with the Metal Gear Solid style of game. If they are all about arming themselves to the teeth and kicking in the door, go for the Hack'n'Slash style most of the time. Read the table as well as you read the adventures, and you will be able to work with them to enjoy your time as much as everyone else. Try to work AGAINST that group dynamic, and you will just get a headache and bitter looks frequently.
Hope this helped,
-t
anthony Valente |
My philosophy is that 15-16 is the endgame, and 17-20 are really just there for NPC villains. My PCs reaching 15 is what I aim for, and I don't think I will ever run them all the way to 20... or if I do it will be the exception.
Curious to see what others say though...
Played to level 19 (pre-PF switch), now running two campaigns… 1st at level 1, the other at level 3 currently. I plan on going to about level 11 or 12 before stopping. I like it there because that's when PCs get really powerful, but just before the game starts to become unwieldy for me as a GM. Actually, it really started to become unwieldy after 14th level, but stopping at around 11th/12th gives a few levels of wiggle room.
joela |
I hope this helped to cover some more specifics... if you were looking for something else, just let me know!
Wow. Both you and Drakli definitely have plenty of experience at high level play. Mine have been a few one-shots and short campaigns between 12-18 level. I usually was a player so don't recall the full-complexity of those battles like you guys.
Observation. From your posts and Drakli's test runs, it seems, IMO, there needs to be some sorta way for the GM to have ALL those little details in front of him/her in some easy format. Using the planetar example:
Planetar: Defense: yadda yadda yadda Magic Circle of Evil: Get second save against mind-effecting enchantments like Dominate, etc.
joela |
Casters dominate most of the fights, with the exception that Casting Defensively is now reasonably difficult. Melee-based characters with Reach can really mess up those squishy casters, as can volley-fire from dedicated ranged-based characters (Ranger+Manyshot+Rapid Shot+Haste+Favored Enemy+Favored Terrain=Very Very Dead Caster), so the parity for death potential is still mostly there.
Glad to hear that change in Pathfinder from 3.x helped mitigate caster's superiority in close quarters in that regard. (And I heart spell casters; my first PC was an illusionist from AD&D.)
joela |
I plan on going to about level 11 or 12 before stopping. I like it there because that's when PCs get really powerful, but just before the game starts to become unwieldy for me as a GM. Actually, it really started to become unwieldy after 14th level, but stopping at around 11th/12th gives a few levels of wiggle room.
There's that "12th" level again. Hmmm. Those 7-9th level spells are beginning to look real suspicious.
Yerv Kinkash |
I have always found at High Level that it moves well if you attempt to make it feel EPIC. Often this means throwing movement and some combat manuvers out the window. ( I always run Epic combat without a mat mini setup can really bog things down) Also, average damdage can help alot. This speeds up play and limits the need for buckets of dice rolled at the table. I will allow dice rolling if the combat is important or they are doing badly, but it is usually averaged. Then again the games I run usually end in EPIC play. I like my PCs to be able to change the world and take on the gods if that is their thing so EPIC fits in my game well.
Robert Young |
Observation. From your posts and Drakli's test runs, it seems, IMO, there needs to be some sorta way for the GM to have ALL those little details in front of him/her in some easy format. Using the planetar example:
Planetar: Defense: yadda yadda yadda Magic Circle of Evil: Get second save against mind-effecting enchantments like Dominate, etc.
The Angels and higher CR Demons & Devils have so many abilities and resistances, many of them at will or always on, that's it is easy to miss one in the heat of combat. A GM may benefit tremendously from a play sheet for these critters - something that lists a preferred series of attack routines or tactics for the encounter.
Oh, and Magic Circle grants a second save only for conditions that existed prior to its effect targeting you. Not a circumstance an Angel is likely to suffer from.
Abraham spalding |
anthony Valente wrote:I plan on going to about level 11 or 12 before stopping. I like it there because that's when PCs get really powerful, but just before the game starts to become unwieldy for me as a GM. Actually, it really started to become unwieldy after 14th level, but stopping at around 11th/12th gives a few levels of wiggle room.There's that "12th" level again. Hmmm. Those 7-9th level spells are beginning to look real suspicious.
No more or less so than the fighter's ability to drop most opponents in one round of attacks... or his AC that's near untouchable.
DigMarx |
I dropped out for a long time after 2nd edition, so coming into 3.5 (3.75)at 15th level has blown me away.... in all the wrong ways.As a player I'm currently in the adventure path with Karzoug.
High Level Combat is not epic imo, it seems to be win initiative and kill or be killed. Power Gaming seems necessary, as a base class using the core book is most likely doomed to failure.
I have almost exactly the same background as you, with the same observations. My re-entry to D&D was in a high-level 3.5 Living Greyhawk style game, and it was ALL about the surprise round. Not that I didn't have fun, I really did. But I agree with your assessment, at least as it pertains to 3.5. I haven't had a chance to play PF at that high of a level yet.
Zo