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Welcome to the Final Playtest


Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest

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Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Welcome to the final playtest of the base classes set to appear in the Advanced Player's Guide. Thanks in part to the valuable feedback and ideas you have posted up over the past two months, we are happy to share some of the revisions to the base classes with you. This will be the last revision to these classes before the books hits store shelves in August. Since there are changes to all six of the base classes, we have decided to keep the playtest window open for another two weeks to give you time to read over these classes and to use them in your games. All feedback for these classes should be placed in this forum. Feedback that is placed in the older forums may go unnoticed. To help us sort through these posts, please be sure to place the name of the class that you are commenting on at the beginning of all of your forum posts.

Like the playtest of the core rules, I am looking for feedback concerning the mechanics and flavor of these classes. As with all of the previous rounds, actual playtest feedback is of the utmost importance. Raw speculation and musings are useful, but playtesting is the most valuable feedback we can get at this stage.

Note that this is the final round of the playtest of the Advanced Player's Guide classes. The playtest window will remain open until the February 15th.

Thank you for your participation in this process and I look forward to seeing your reports.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Osirion

Many thanks!

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Thank you for playtesting.

Some of you might notice that we have disabled the ability to start new threads in the old forums. The only place for new threads now is in this Final Playtest forum and General Discussion.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Thanks for all the hard work, I can't wait to dig into it!


Great stuff! Why did the fluf for the Order of the Cockatrice and Order of the Dragon invert?

Also, does the Order of the Swords 8th level bonus of halving Ride check penalties seem defunct as a cavalier doesn't suffer from them now at all? Or am I missing something?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
vagrant-poet wrote:

Great stuff! Why did the fluf for the Order of the Cockatrice and Order of the Dragon invert?

Also, does the Order of the Swords 8th level bonus of halving Ride check penalties seem defunct as a cavalier doesn't suffer from them now at all? Or am I missing something?

Nice catch on the 8th level Order of the Sword ability, I'm surprised I didn't notice it when I was asking questions about the other Order of the Sword abilities in another thread.


vagrant-poet wrote:

Great stuff! Why did the fluf for the Order of the Cockatrice and Order of the Dragon invert?

Also, does the Order of the Swords 8th level bonus of halving Ride check penalties seem defunct as a cavalier doesn't suffer from them now at all? Or am I missing something?

I thought about this too. I believe the Cav takes no armor penalty on his particular mount would be my guess (since it is under his mount section), and a half armor penalty on any ride check made while not on his particular animal companion.

One thing that strikes me as odd, is the Banner abilities.

At 5th level, I get: +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, and at level 10, these go up by +1.

But the Greater Banner ability, which I get at 14 gives +2 to other saves, and this: The morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge increases to +2.

But aren't my morale bonuses already at +2 due to level from the original banner? And they will continue to go up by +1 at 15 and 20 due to the normal Banner ability.

It seems to make the Greater Banners attack boost useless


The text for the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA was not changed to reflect the rule changes made previously. It still states it is a standard action and they last for 1 minute / level.

Have those changes been tossed or was it missed?


QOShea wrote:

The text for the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA was not changed to reflect the rule changes made previously. It still states it is a standard action and they last for 1 minute / level.

Have those changes been tossed or was it missed?

It also mentions only one such effect (summon monster/gate) can be in effect at any one time. Another casting will prematurely end the other.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Soullos wrote:
QOShea wrote:

The text for the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA was not changed to reflect the rule changes made previously. It still states it is a standard action and they last for 1 minute / level.

Have those changes been tossed or was it missed?

It also mentions only one such effect (summon monster/gate) can be in effect at any one time. Another casting will prematurely end the other.

This was the exact fix I was looking for. Nifty. Much nift.

Shadow Lodge

Soullos wrote:
QOShea wrote:

The text for the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA was not changed to reflect the rule changes made previously. It still states it is a standard action and they last for 1 minute / level.

Have those changes been tossed or was it missed?

It also mentions only one such effect (summon monster/gate) can be in effect at any one time. Another casting will prematurely end the other.

Awesome, this is what most people felt was a reasonable compromise, I'm glad it made it in. My wife will rejoice :)

Also: "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon."

Simplifies the AC problems a lot.

Also, a bit of a typo, the guide says the Summoner's spell list is on Page 12 which is from the original document, the spells are on page 50.

Qadira

I see that page 45 of the final playtest document refers to Pathfinder Bestiary II. Does this suggest it will be released around the same time as the Advanced Players Guide?

Cheliax

Something I noticed immediately: why are tactical feats now called teamwork feats? Personally I liked the preferred the former name, and I wonder if there was some particular reason for this change?

Cheliax

Black Harlequin wrote:

One thing that strikes me as odd, is the Banner abilities.

At 5th level, I get: +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, and at level 10, these go up by +1.

But the Greater Banner ability, which I get at 14 gives +2 to other saves, and this: The morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge increases to +2.

But aren't my morale bonuses already at +2 due to level from the original banner? And they will continue to go up by +1 at 15 and 20 due to the normal Banner ability.

It seems to make the Greater Banners attack boost useless

Hmmm... I bumped into the '+X morale bonus to your saves, +Y morale bonus to your saves, +Z morale bonus to your Fort Save (and so on)' when I ran a cavalier in my playtest campaign. Some orders had abilities that just gave too many morale bonuses which overlapped each other with bonuses from Banner and Oaths.

As the cavalier represents a tactical warrior, maybe some bonuses could be changed to insight bonus so they would be less overlap? I wouldn't mind if I could, for example, freely pick the Banner ability or something ('Banner Focus'?) *OR* at least get to select between two bonus types (insight or morale)? Just some thoughts...

Cheliax

Har har! I'm so damn excited that I almost lit and tore off my beard in joy (I know Mairkurion and Yoda8myhead would have become very happy if I had)! ;)

A *HUGE* thank you, Jason to all of you guys -- amazing work, and thanks for listening to feedback and implementing so many changes to the classes based on our comments!

*Scampers off to do the Naked Dwarven Beard Dance*


I'm at work, so I can't see the changes yet... the excitement to get home is driving me nuts.

However, I intend to use the Witch class to rewrite an encounter for an adventure path I'm running, so I'll get to use some real playtesting.
I'll put up a thread on it after it's done (which is next week, sunday or tuesday, so hopefully still in time for the playtest).


Ash_Gazn wrote:
I see that page 45 of the final playtest document refers to Pathfinder Bestiary II. Does this suggest it will be released around the same time as the Advanced Players Guide?

Nice !

Osirion

unless I read wrong but in the summoner spell list there is an error -
3rd level & 4th level both have minor creation then 5th level gets major creation
maybe 4th level should be major creation & a decent spell replace the the 5th level major creation

just to confirm also - the SLA ability for the summoner is only affected by one at a time but you can still spam spell list summons if you want too ? as well as have a SLA summon up to ?
but considering they are not or equivalence to other casters I doubt this will happen


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ceefood wrote:

just to confirm also - the SLA ability for the summoner is only affected by one at a time but you can still spam spell list summons if you want too ? as well as have a SLA summon up to ?

but considering they are not or equivalence to other casters I doubt this will happen

A summoner's spellcasting is not affected by that limitation, only his spell-like abilities.

Notice in the summon monster class ability it specifically says that the limitation applies to monsters summoned "in this way." It is referring to that class ability, and only that class ability.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

This was mentioned in its own thread once or twice but has since not been addressed by anyone in charge:

What about starting gold for the six classes?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Did anyone report that the Cavalier was overpowered at some point? I know one of my players will cry when he sees his challenge only works once per day and that the extra damage it dealt has been reduced drastically.

What were the reazons behind this downgrade?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Frerezar wrote:

Did anyone report that the Cavalier was overpowered at some point? I know one of my players will cry when he sees his challenge only works once per day and that the extra damage it dealt has been reduced drastically.

What were the reazons behind this downgrade?

This is just a guess, but I would say to put it on par with the paladin's smite evil. The times per day progression and damage seem simialar, but can be used on anyone as opposed to just evil.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Also, they are now multiplied on crits and work on targets immune to precision damage.


At level 20, it's only decreased by an average of 4,5 damage. Also, you aren't considered flanked anymore. Combined with the fact that it isn't precision damage anymore, I'd say it's a very solid ability.

Cheliax

Asgetrion wrote:


*Scampers off to do the Naked Dwarven Beard Dance*

My eyes!

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Fair enought, I just hadn´t seen any complains about it so it made me curious. Consistency is good I guess.

Shadow Lodge

0gre wrote:

Also: "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon."

Simplifies the AC problems a lot.

Where is this written? I just reread the Eidolon class feature and cannot find that sentence anywhere...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
0gre wrote:

Also: "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon."

Simplifies the AC problems a lot.

Where is this written? I just reread the Eidolon class feature and cannot find that sentence anywhere...

Pg 24, under the "Armor Bonus" entry.

Though I have to wonder - is there a compelling reason to have some of that bonus be an armor bonus over a natural armor bonus that I'm not coming up with?

Shadow Lodge

Shisumo wrote:

Pg 24, under the "Armor Bonus" entry.

Though I have to wonder - is there a compelling reason to have some of that bonus be an armor bonus over a natural armor bonus that I'm not coming up with?

I find it, then come back to edit the post saying I had fond it, and was ninja'd before I could ever click edit. Dang.

And no, there isn't any reason I can think of right now for it to be an armor bonus instead of natural armor, because you can have the nat armor look like fullplate if you wanted too.


Shisumo wrote:

Pg 24, under the "Armor Bonus" entry.

Though I have to wonder - is there a compelling reason to have some of that bonus be an armor bonus over a natural armor bonus that I'm not coming up with?

Pg 34, actually.

Pg 24 is Oracle information.


just got done looking it over and they seem great. I also liked the teamwork feats. Great stuff

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Once again Paizo delivers. Even if I never play or run a campaign with any of these classes (and I hope that isn't the case), these are some well done rules and I'd like say 'Thank you' to the hard working staff of Paizo, not only for creating such a quality product but also for taking player base suggestions during the design process.


Why can a lion, a tiger, or a bear have claws on its feet, but an eidolon can't?

Cheliax

Lord Yod wrote:
Why can a lion, a tiger, or a bear have claws on its feet, but an eidolon can't?

I don't see a rule preventing it...

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Lord Yod wrote:
Why can a lion, a tiger, or a bear have claws on its feet, but an eidolon can't?

How do you figure? A lion, a tiger, and a bear only have 2 claw attacks. Not four.


Scipion del Ferro wrote:
Lord Yod wrote:
Why can a lion, a tiger, or a bear have claws on its feet, but an eidolon can't?
How do you figure? A lion, a tiger, and a bear only have 2 claw attacks. Not four.

But they are also quadrupeds. Especially the lion and tiger.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Sure, and the animals certainly have claws on their feet as well, but for game and balance purposes the claws on their forelimbs are the only ones counted.

Cheliax

Scipion del Ferro wrote:
Sure, and the animals certainly have claws on their feet as well, but for game and balance purposes the claws on their forelimbs are the only ones counted.

Really? I dare you to say that after a lion rakes you...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You can apply claws to any limb the eidolon possesses.

Cheliax

Are the Grand and True mutagen abilities supposed to grant enhancement bonuses or alchemical bonuses? I figured all of them would be changed, but only mutagen, and greater mutagen changed their descriptive text to specify alchemical instead of enhancement.


Ravingdork wrote:

You can apply claws to any limb the eidolon possesses.

Except it specifically states you can only apply claws to the arms... same with slam attacks and pincers.

"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution.
This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution."

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Alchemical

Cheliax

Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

You can apply claws to any limb the eidolon possesses.

Except it specifically states you can only apply claws to the arms... same with slam attacks and pincers.

"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution.
This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution."

Huh... you are right. That is very silly as it means quadrupedal forms can't have claws... At all. That seems like a major oversight and will probably be changed/errata'd.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Ash_Gazn wrote:
I see that page 45 of the final playtest document refers to Pathfinder Bestiary II. Does this suggest it will be released around the same time as the Advanced Players Guide?

Given that there are varying definitions of the word "around," I'll go with "yes."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ah. I missed the (arms) part because it is on the next line down. You can still pay for the limbs (arms) and then the claws in order to get the claw attacks, and then simply say they are on the legs.

Having to spend the extra points is a balance thing, but yo can always change the flavor of your own eidolon.


Lord Yod wrote:
Why can a lion, a tiger, or a bear have claws on its feet, but an eidolon can't?
Draeke Raefel wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
Sure, and the animals certainly have claws on their feet as well, but for game and balance purposes the claws on their forelimbs are the only ones counted.
Really? I dare you to say that after a lion rakes you...

Rake is a two point evolution that "grows dangerous claws on its feet,

allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling."

So don't worry, your Eidolon can in fact have claws on it's feet (both in a descriptive sense and mechanically).


Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

You can apply claws to any limb the eidolon possesses.

Except it specifically states you can only apply claws to the arms... same with slam attacks and pincers.

"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution.
This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution."

The evolution you are looking for is "Rake".

Cheliax

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

You can apply claws to any limb the eidolon possesses.

Except it specifically states you can only apply claws to the arms... same with slam attacks and pincers.

"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution.
This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution."

The evolution you are looking for is "Rake".

which doesn't allow you to gain the normal claw/claw/bite attack routine of some of the quadrupedal forms. the forelegs need to allow the claws evolution.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

You can apply claws to any limb the eidolon possesses.

Except it specifically states you can only apply claws to the arms... same with slam attacks and pincers.

"Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution.
This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution."

The evolution you are looking for is "Rake".
which doesn't allow you to gain the normal claw/claw/bite attack routine of some of the quadrupedal forms. the forelegs need to allow the claws evolution.

I don't understand what you are getting at. A Lion has 4 claws, but only has a claw/claw/bite routine, and if he gets his grapple he can rake.

How would that be any different from the Eidolon (clawed forearms with a bite, and then rake for the hind legs)?

*Edit* Ah, I reread it and see now.. the Quadruped states it has "legs" on the forelegs, which don't qualify for claws.
Yeah, that might need a bit of a revision in the Claws entry.

Maybe we are missing a "Talons" entry, that are feet specific? That would cover the bird-like Eidolons... and some dinosaurs if I recall correctly.


This is great. I think most of the Gunslingers in my campaign are now going to be changed to the Inquisitor class. However, I think I might do a homebrew Order of Ka for the Cavalier! ;)

EDIT->

New Judgement.... "You have forgotten the fae of your father"

Awesome.

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