LG vs LG: Two Kingdoms at war: a Thought Experiment


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Sovereign Court

Christopher Dudley wrote:
The Purity of Violence wrote:
Before you go stealing from history, can you point out one single LG state that ever existed, let alone two LG states bordering each other which went to war????
Can't be done objectively, because alignment doesn't really exist. [snipped a lot of cool concepts]

Here's an example:

Let us assume that:

1) USA is LG
2) Canada is LG
3) Mexico is CG

(this is purely hypothetical)

We get that:

1) USA often has legal fights with Canada, as they are both lawful and every conflict must be resolved legally or via bureaucracy; and

2) USA can resolve problems with Mexico with a handshake (diplomacy) or veiled threats (intimidate) because Mexico's laws are more flexible, the Mexican people put more emphasis on friendship, honor and goodwill rather laws.

Thus, we get that a LG country is perhaps best served by CG neighbours, especially when the LG country is more powerful/dominant. The powerful/dominant LG nation can flex its muscle to make the CG country move the way they want. However the powerful/dominant LG nation cannot "bend" the smaller LG nation, 'cause the smaller LG nation is well, LG, and thus unbending...


Well, I can think of a few different reasons two LG communities might fight one another, even given full information as to LG nature of their foes.

The first situation that comes to mind is a border dispute involving settlers. Even if the actual line of the original border is known to both sides, the presence of settlers on both sides of the border (settlers who may or may not identify themselves strongly with either country) could lead to significant conflict, simply because the LG governments cannot simply sit idle and watch what they see as some of "their people" suffer under the yoke of foreign ideals and laws that don't match their own.

Add a religious element (as several people have suggested already) and you've got a real winner.

Another idea that could work would be a dispute over trade, Dwarven Kingdom A produces/has some vital resource that Human Kingdom B needs badly (fine armor and weapons perhaps, maybe the human kingdoms are facing some other outside threat). The Dwarves refuse to trade enough of these resources to the Human Kingdom (perhaps because they simply don't have it, perhaps because doing so would be too much of a strain on their workforce, maybe they have their own threats to deal with underground, who knows). The Human Leaders are then faced with a decision, even if they know the Dwarves are acting in good faith, they also know that attacking the dwarves and taking those resources could save the lives of their own people.


Never underestimate the power of stupid. Two law good kingdom argue over which is best able to protect something or help someone. Same goal but neither is willing to step back as the task is a divine mandate. We Are Right... W.A.R. Lawful Good fish hole.


One that could keep both LG kingdoms steaming over centuries before a war, without geting into religion and specicism, is diferences in the law, like someone already mentioned one kingdom could have a caste sistem while the other consider this a crime, that doesn't make the second nation chaotic or even pro-freedom, it's just against their law.
Keeping on that vein, a democracy and a monarchy, both being LG and both considering their sistem the best, will look at each other as if the other was a sneeze away from LE and trying to take their governmet down. Who knows? They both may be right. (It's only paranoia if you're wrong after all.)
And both kingdoms might be from the same race and still fight about races, especially if one of them is an isolacionist (still good if they have a reason, like protecting a shrine or important temple) and the other has open borders (and just cna't understand why the other can't be honest and generous like themselves).

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Doug's Workshop wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:


Can't be done objectively, because alignment doesn't really exist.

OMG! Are you saying D&D is a construct designed to replicate a very specific situation and can't be applied to all areas of life?

Okay, that was a bit snarky. But thank you for pointing out that . . .

THIS IS A GAME!

A bit out of line, I feel, considering the poster that I replied to asked for a real-world example of a LG nation.


Christopher Dudley wrote:
Doug's Workshop wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:


Can't be done objectively, because alignment doesn't really exist.

OMG! Are you saying D&D is a construct designed to replicate a very specific situation and can't be applied to all areas of life?

Okay, that was a bit snarky. But thank you for pointing out that . . .

THIS IS A GAME!

A bit out of line, I feel, considering the poster that I replied to asked for a real-world example of a LG nation.

I completely agree.

Asking for real-world examples of alignment is pointless, because D&D is cosmologically defined as being built on a framework of alignments. Saying something is "good," "evil," "lawful," or "chaotic" in such a world is about as relevant as saying that something has "weight," "density," or "temperature," and to what degree.

I wonder what two LG societies' deities would think about a war between two LG civilizations. "Hey! Keep your dirty followers away from mine!" "No, you keep your followers away!" "Oh, now it's on, Moradin!"


ok, supposedly there are a whole lot of possible scenarios to play out to get two nations to go to war against eachother.

I am looking to do something similar in my campaign, specifically I am looking for ways how a powerful devil can push two nations to go to war.

any ideas ?


I think someone else mentioned it, but part of Lawful is 'respecting legitimate authority.' And there is mileage out of 'do we agree on this person being a legitimate authority?'

Kingdom A might see kingdom B's new king as not the legitimate king of B. Moreover, as their royal lines are related, they feel obligated to get involved, invade, and straighten things out.

Kingdom B, obviously, disagrees, and repulses the invaders.

The two folks may very well know that folks and leaders on the other side are LG, too. It's just... they're wrong.

And divination might not help; it tells you what your god thinks. If the two kingdoms worship different gods... well.


Remco Sommeling wrote:

ok, supposedly there are a whole lot of possible scenarios to play out to get two nations to go to war against eachother.

I am looking to do something similar in my campaign, specifically I am looking for ways how a powerful devil can push two nations to go to war.

any ideas ?

Take any of the above scenarios and declare them to be machinations of said devil.


Keep in mind that in history, when it's all boiled down to it, one of the number one reasons why many countries/kingdoms/territories/etc. go to war is because Kingdom A wants Kingdom B to have a similar facet of thier own kingdom, be it:

A) Religion
B) Government
C) Laws
D) Leadership

Think of how many times the U.S.A. has gone to war or done other lower-key military operations in order to impose a ruler that they want there, or to specifically change the govornment to a Democracy. And it doesen't necissarily have to be that Kingdom A wants to change their neighbors *whatever* (Religion, government, etc.) to their own, it could be that Kingdom A and B's *whatever* are the same and Kingdom A wants to change it, and Kingdom B won't allow it. King Henry the 8th and his religious dispute with Rome is a good example of this.

Besides warring over controlling territory or resources, *most* kingdom wars fit into the above list.

Also, when going into the Alignment debacle, realize that the government and leadership could have a very different alignment than that of the kingdom or nation itself. It could be that a more lawful and good society is bieng manipulated by more chaotically aligned, or evil bent leaders into thier personal goals and bids for power or national ideals. Without going into too much specifics, think about the differences between the goals and "Alignments" of people and leadership of each country that was involved in the last World War.

Just my two cents.


BobChuck wrote:
Other ideas?

Well, I had one about a tomato and a potato, but the whole thing got called off.


Remco Sommeling wrote:

ok, supposedly there are a whole lot of possible scenarios to play out to get two nations to go to war against eachother.

I am looking to do something similar in my campaign, specifically I am looking for ways how a powerful devil can push two nations to go to war.

any ideas ?

Remmco,

Check the url I gave in an earlier post about the Albigensian Crusade. Mayhap your devil is in the guise of Pope Innocent III?

(No disrespect intended here - man, I shouldnt even have to say that)

When you dig into this crusade, the human tragedy involved was immense. And an entire culture based in the richest part of France was wiped out and taken over by the "poorer" nobles of northern France. Reviewing potential goals of said devil:

Remove those "goody two-shoes" in the South? check
Acquire lucrative trade routes? check
Place loyal lieutenants in place of power? check
Set thousands of new souls on their way to damnation? check
20 years of entertainment? check

Sounds like a win-win. All somewhat tongue-in-cheek of course, but you get my point.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Old Guy GM wrote:


Check the url I gave in an earlier post about the Albigensian Crusade. Mayhap your devil is in the guise of Pope Innocent III?

Or he's just a man, left with no choice but leading the armies of the devoted into a terrible mistake.

It would be fun later on if the party fought devils, and the devils complained that, while they devote their existence to sowing discord into the relations of the material plane, the most deadly war over minor differences of belief they had nothing to do with. How would you feel if you were a devil and for sheer death toll you were outdone in your own job by human stupidity?


Christopher Dudley wrote:
Old Guy GM wrote:


Check the url I gave in an earlier post about the Albigensian Crusade. Mayhap your devil is in the guise of Pope Innocent III?

Or he's just a man, left with no choice but leading the armies of the devoted into a terrible mistake.

It would be fun later on if the party fought devils, and the devils complained that, while they devote their existence to sowing discord into the relations of the material plane, the most deadly war over minor differences of belief they had nothing to do with. How would you feel if you were a devil and for sheer death toll you were outdone in your own job by human stupidity?

Then try this one: because wars are inevitably chaotic affairs (the results, not the alignment), what if the only way to end the conflict and bring order is to ally with the devils? Who are LE, and want an end to the chaos of war in order to advance their own agendas? Some potential roleplaying dilemmas there.


@LE Devil fighting against war... Especsially before you can bind those souls fates to your's or your masters. The just get themselves killed over thier own higher ideals, so only Pharasma knows where they'll end up. Talk about a waiste.

1000 years ago greate cleric of Torag battled an demon and banished it through a gate. Now a not as great Human cleric of Sarerae has pinned a Rhavagug spawn and needs to banishin it. The only viable option is the old Dwarf portal, but if reopenned the demon and it's new army will come through and destroy the Dwarf Kingdom.

Not only are both good (and could be lawful) but both have a darn good reason for fighting to get things done.


[threadjack]

About Demon/Devil Interplay:
My wife ran a game set at the turn of the 19th century (1890's) where the plot was to root out the evil "Hellfire Club" (Masque of the Red Death based game). Along the way, we learned that Demons, and one Balor-Lord in particular, were responsible for causing all the turbulent and chaotic conflicts sweeping the world. My character, devoutly religious monk from Bavaria, trained in Munich, devoted himself to piecing together the clues so we could attack these Demons head-on.

At the climax of the story, he partnered with a lesser evil animal spirit and charged headlong into a battle taking place on one of the planes of the abyss itself. In a bitter battle, we destroyed the Balor-Lord on his native plane and ended his dominion over the world.

Then the spirit changed shape and revealed himself to be Asmodeus, long thought dead Lord of the Nine. With his powers, he summoned the other Lords of the Nine TO THE ABYSS and declared that the Earth was now to be theirs, and that these champions of "good" had played their part perfectly.

As we contemplated our coming end (no way we could defeat even 1 of them, much less all 9), an old friend of ours, an Eladrin, popped in with an angelic vanguard and attracted every demon in the entire abyss to our location. The Lords retreated, not wanted to be caught between the forces of the Abyss and the Heavens, and the angelic army transported us out.

We had won: we defeated the evil cults, stamped out the demon threat, and even walked away with our lives. My character returned to Germany, another returned to Italy, another to Japan (starting to see a thread?). She ended the game with a recording of Hitler's speech announcing his "last territorial demand in Europe" and congradulated us on achieving "peace in our time".

I never actually LOST a game of D&D before that. I was unsure how. Now I know.

[/threadjack]

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Living Arcanis had ample examples of this. You had Lawful Goods from Coryan fighting Lawful Goods from Milander, a fair deal of Paladin vs. Paladin mortal combat. Politics in this case trumps alignment especially when both sides think they're right.

Dark Archive

The thing to remember is that if they really hate each other enough then it will take very little to set them to war. The War of the Roses was started over a painting that depicted Adam and Eve having belly buttons. It might be better to start by developing the underlying reasons that they hate each other, and work out from there.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

David Fryer wrote:
The War of the Roses was started over a painting that depicted Adam and Eve having belly buttons.

o.O? I thought they were over English succession.

Dark Archive

Charlie Bell wrote:
David Fryer wrote:
The War of the Roses was started over a painting that depicted Adam and Eve having belly buttons.
o.O? I thought they were over English succession.

I could have my English wars confused. They all run together after awhile.


One kingdom may be hiding a dark secret from the world and sworn to protect it at all costs. In the distant past, an ancestor of the ruler of Kingdom X bound a powerful devil in an ancient temple. The crown has always guarded the location and existence of the devil's prison by posting an order of knights to watch the ruined temple and tun off anyone who got to close.

The young prince of Nation Y is hunting near the border of his realm and comes across this hidden fortress. The knights try to frighten the party off, but the prince's party is full of powerful adventurers so they hold their own. Taking refuge in the temple, the knights have no choice but to kill the intruders from Nation Y. A lone paige survives and runs to tell King Y. The grieving king declares war.


Also, LG does not mean always saintly and pious. Suppose LG Duke of Earl is an envoy at at the court of King Johnny. A bit of a rake, Duke of Earl begins a romance with King Johnny's wife. The affair is discovered and a duel results. One kills the other and war results from the fallout.

Is this good behavior? No, but it isn't evil and even the best Paladin has his personal flaws. When good characters screw up in their personal lives, it shows their humanity.

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