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Rules say: Flat-Footed: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed"
Roll for Initiative, my roll is 14, goblin roll 3. So i act first. Is that goblin Flat-Footed in this round?
The goblin is only flat-footed until he acts in initiative count 3 of that round.
So you get to attack him at his flat-footed AC but if your buddy rolled a 2 and goes after the goblin, he attacks it at its normal AC.
On a 'Surprise Round' all creatures are flatfooted, and on the subsequent round (unless a surprise round didnt occur) those with the lowest initiative are flatfooted vs the higher initiatives (even if the same target was attacked on the surprise round, so it allows for a second sneak attack).
Heres a question I always considered...
If a creature is flatfooted, does it ONLY lose its Dex bonus to AC?, or also the DEX bonus to Reflex saves on the first round (if attacked by lets say, a surprise 'Fireball')?, I'm curious, if theyre not that mobile when 'flatfooted' I'd assume their Reflex saves take a hit...but I dont use that interpretation, I let my players keep their full reflex saves, but it does make you wonder...
That and 'Uncanny Dodge' prevents you from being Flatfooted unless your helpless/immobilised, regardless whos attacking you pretty much unless they 'feint' you in combat...which is always handy.
If a creature is flatfooted, does it ONLY lose its Dex bonus to AC?, or also the DEX bonus to Reflex saves on the first round (if attacked by lets say, a surprise 'Fireball')?, I'm curious, if theyre not that mobile when 'flatfooted' I'd assume their Reflex saves take a hit...but I dont use that interpretation, I let my players keep their full reflex saves, but it does make you wonder...
Yes, I've had that occur to me as well...
But then again, what about Reflex-Save Traps? Unless you are PURPOSELY triggering them, you are by default Surprised by their effect. Their CR should be signifigantly effected if DEX bonus doesn't count (and this fact should be called out), but it isn't.So I kind of WANT DEX bonus to Saves not to work in Surprise Rounds, but I'm not sure of all the consequences...
I know the feeling, it seems like a logical arguement - after all you cant really lose your CON to Fortitude or WIS to Willpower, but Dexterity to AC can be denied in some circumstances, if it also affected your Reflex saves it would make traps and surprise AoE spells and such much more of a threat (though 'Evasion/Improved Evasion' could still work albeit at a lower save).
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You can look at it like this to maybe help it make sense.
Using Dexterity as part of one's Armor Class is an ACTIVE use of dexterity. Being able to see and react to the threat is necessary in order to take advantage of dexterity to avoid an incoming attack.
Saving Throws are a PASSIVE defense mechanism. You do not need to make any conscious choice to make use of a saving throw; it is simply a representation of how resistant you are to certain types of attacks and dangers. Because it is a PASSIVE ability, it is not dependent on being aware of the danger. In one sense, saving throws are more like SR than AC as a defense mechanism.
Because a Reflex save is passive in nature, the ability to respond to dangers of which a creature is unaware is already a factor of a creatures reflex save. In fact, most reflex saves are made against dangers for which the creature is unaware (a hidden pit, a sudden trap, etc.); very few are responses to something the creature sees happening before it (Fireballs and other attack spells being the most likely exceptions.) And thats really what the purpose of the reflex save is--how resistant is the creature to sudden but avoidable dangers. The dexterity part of the Reflex save is simply the measure of how well the creature can move in order to avoid the danger; but since this is a passive ability it is not a measure of how well it reacts to the danger, since it need not take any conscious action in order to trigger a passive defense.
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On a 'Surprise Round' all creatures are flatfooted, and on the subsequent round (unless a surprise round didnt occur) those with the lowest initiative are flatfooted vs the higher initiatives (even if the same target was attacked on the surprise round, so it allows for a second sneak attack).Heres a question I always considered...
If a creature is flatfooted, does it ONLY lose its Dex bonus to AC?, or also the DEX bonus to Reflex saves on the first round (if attacked by lets say, a surprise 'Fireball')?, I'm curious, if theyre not that mobile when 'flatfooted' I'd assume their Reflex saves take a hit...but I dont use that interpretation, I let my players keep their full reflex saves, but it does make you wonder...That and 'Uncanny Dodge' prevents you from being Flatfooted unless your helpless/immobilised, regardless whos attacking you pretty much unless they 'feint' you in combat...which is always handy.
Here there - I thought creatures are ff only until they act on their count, but once they act they are no longer ff. Can you clarify the statement made above... about "and on the subsequent round"? Were you referring that the first round whether surprise or regular functions this way? If so, I understand. If not, and if you mean both rounds, then I think I have questions about that statement...
Here there - I thought creatures are ff only until they act on their count, but once they act they are no longer ff. Can you clarify the statement made above... about "and on the subsequent round"? Were you referring that the first round whether surprise or regular functions this way? If so, I understand. If not, and if you mean both rounds, then I think I have questions about that statement...
On a 'Surprise Round' all creatures are flatfooted, and on the subsequent round (unless a surprise round didnt occur) those with the lowest initiative are flatfooted vs the higher initiatives (even if the same target was attacked on the surprise round, so it allows for a second sneak attack).
If you are surprised, you are flat-footed during the surprise round. The next round, after the surprise round, everyone acts in initiative order. Until you act (in initiative order) in that next round, you are (still) flat-footed. That next round is 'on the subsequent round'. Capish?
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On a Surprise Round (which is only equal to a partial action) all creatures except the ambushing character(s) are flat footed on this surprise round.
So assume the character (lets say a Rogue) picks out a target with a shortbow and shoots it adding his sneak attack (within the 30ft requirement of course), if he hits and does his sneak attack (of course if they can be sneak attacked (if they dont have 'Uncanny Dodge')
On the following round, or 1st round of combat (if the amushing character is for instance spotted in this case) everyone rolls initiative. All those who act after the highest initiative are flat footed EVEN if they were struck or attacked in the Surprise Round, so the character can (if eligable of course, if they cant be caught flat-footed for example, etc.) deliver a SECOND Sneak Attack in this case on this round vs anyone who hasnt acted yet.
Hope that helps.
On a Surprise Round (which is only equal to a partial action) all creatures except the ambushing character(s) are flat footed on this surprise round.
So assume the character (lets say a Rogue) picks out a target with a shortbow and shoots it adding his sneak attack (within the 30ft requirement of course), if he hits and does his sneak attack (of course if they can be sneak attacked (if they dont have 'Uncanny Dodge')
On the following round, or 1st round of combat (if the amushing character is for instance spotted in this case) everyone rolls initiative. All those who act after the highest initiative are flat footed EVEN if they were struck or attacked in the Surprise Round, so the character can (if eligable of course, if they cant be caught flat-footed for example, etc.) deliver a SECOND Sneak Attack in this case on this round vs anyone who hasnt acted yet.
Hope that helps.
I think the simplest way to put it is: A creature is flat-footed until its first turn in initiative.
Or, as its definied in the conditions Appendix: "A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed"
Of course, flatfooted characters lose their Dex to AC (unless they have certain abilities or other benefits that prevent this, such as Uncanny Dodge).
And creatures that lose their Dex to AC are subject to sneak attack damage, if all other requisite conditions for sneak attack damage apply (the sneak attacker is in range, the target is not immune, the target is not concealed, etc).
On a Surprise Round (which is only equal to a partial action) all creatures except the ambushing character(s) are flat footed on this surprise round.
So assume the character (lets say a Rogue) picks out a target with a shortbow and shoots it adding his sneak attack (within the 30ft requirement of course), if he hits and does his sneak attack (of course if they can be sneak attacked (if they dont have 'Uncanny Dodge')
On the following round, or 1st round of combat (if the amushing character is for instance spotted in this case) everyone rolls initiative. All those who act after the highest initiative are flat footed EVEN if they were struck or attacked in the Surprise Round, so the character can (if eligable of course, if they cant be caught flat-footed for example, etc.) deliver a SECOND Sneak Attack in this case on this round vs anyone who hasnt acted yet.
Hope that helps.
By RAW, the surprise round isn't needed. The rules state specifically that before your first action in the round you are in fact flat footed. It doesn't matter if you the two of you were staring each other in the face nose to nose, the person(s) who act first will in fact be attacking the opponent and be checking against a flat footed AC until the opponents action. This is of course barring abilities like Uncanny Dodge or the like.
Thats more or less what I said though, I perhaps over-explained is all.
On a (vaguely) related note, the new Diviner ability to act in the surprise round creates situations where a character can react to ambushes that haven't actually happened yet.
On a (vaguely) related note, the new Diviner ability to act in the surprise round creates situations where a character can react to ambushes that haven't actually happened yet.
Hmm. That is interesting. Might be kind of cool too... Tell the player of the PC to roll initiative. He gets a sort of spidey-sense to frantically look around for the source of his sense going off...
I like it.
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The character in my game is an F2/W3 (Diviner). When his spidey sense goes off he cast invisibility and takes a 5' step. Twice on solo adventures a group of "ninja" types have jumped out from behind cover, bows ready, poisoned shurikens poised, only to find nobody there. Something sad about professional assassins standing around, scratching their heads, going "Huh. I could have sworn...."
That is pretty sweet. I love it. I feel bad for the rest of the party though :)
Edit: Oh, you said solo. Lol my bad.
I have a serious issue with some of this, namely, why in the blue blazes should I be flat footed if I know of my enemy before they attack me?
For example, my character is facing enemies, she knows they are enemies, is in a defensive stance, is staring into their eyes, and is simply waiting for the bell to start fighting. There is no reason whatsoever why she should be flat footed.
In another case, my character is headed for some people nearby and is prepared for a fight, aware that the people may be enemies, and they start yelling, pull out bows, and start firing them, which isn't exactly surprising to my character.
In both cases, the GM has considered the first attack roll as the start of combat and made my character flat footed despite being fully aware of and prepared for the incoming attacks which directly contradicts the entire concept of being flat footed.
Simple, they are more ready than you are.
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I have a serious issue with some of this, namely, why in the blue blazes should I be flat footed if I know of my enemy before they attack me?
For example, my character is facing enemies, she knows they are enemies, is in a defensive stance, is staring into their eyes, and is simply waiting for the bell to start fighting. There is no reason whatsoever why she should be flat footed.
In another case, my character is headed for some people nearby and is prepared for a fight, aware that the people may be enemies, and they start yelling, pull out bows, and start firing them, which isn't exactly surprising to my character.
In both cases, the GM has considered the first attack roll as the start of combat and made my character flat footed despite being fully aware of and prepared for the incoming attacks which directly contradicts the entire concept of being flat footed.
The combat doesn't always start for both parties at the same time. Just because its the characters' first round of combat doesn't mean it's also the monsters'. That period of time up to 6 seconds before the first actions after the initiative roll may not have been "combat" for the characters, but the monsters in ambush obviously were already delaying, and thus can be not flat footed even if they lose initiative.
No, they can't. Combat starts at the same time for all members (at least those present when the fight started). An ambush is handled by the Surprise Round, not by initiative. But even the surprise round is not guaranteed due to good perception rolls or anti-ambush tactics.
Combat starts when initiative is rolled. Both sides, unless surprised, anticipate battle. Both sides mentally prepare for the 'trigger' that starts the fight. Some individuals get the jump over other. Those that fall to the bottom of the initiative were too slow, or distracted and are flat-footed.
I think the rules of the game do a great job of capturing the chaos of the opening gambit of a fight.
Just because you think you are ready to kick some butt, doesn't mean the Orc did expect your scrawnness to try something.
The monsters were not in ambush, in fact, we spotted them first, they just were the first to decide to fight.
Sure you can say they were "more prepared" but that doesn't make my character surprised or unprepared. Flat footed is about being unaware. Prepared is something different.
Not every fight is going start with an ambush or surprise round.
It does happen that both sides might be aware of impending combat several "rounds" before the first blow is struck.
Ninjad.
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No, they can't. Combat starts at the same time for all members (at least those present when the fight started).
And that's the crux.
If ambushers (be they PCs or NPCs) detect victims approaching their kill box, they ready actions or delay until the victims are in the kill box. In effect, they're rolling for initiative even though there is no other party yet to have a fight with. (technically, there is, the other party just doesn't know it yet)
However many groups of 6 seconds it takes for the victims to stumble into the kill box, it's already that many combat rounds elapsed. Even though the victims haven't yet rolled initiative.
So, when they DO roll initiative, the ambushers have already been delaying/readying for X amount of rounds.
For that matter, the ambushers can even "jump into the combat order" ahead of the highest initiative order among the victims, since delaying allows you to do that.
If the victims fail to detect the ambushers laying in wait, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever (ruleswise or common sense-wise) for the first thing "in combat" from the victims' perspective to be anything other than the hammer dropping.
It's not just ambush situations. If party A enters a room and does things to alert party B to their presence, party B can "enter combat" and buff up, etc, and come into the room loaded for bear.
If it were as you say, that combat has to begin equitably, when party A and party B are fighting, there would have to be new initiative values rolled when party C comes to see what all the ruckus is and joins the combat some rounds after A and B began fighting each other. And that's demonstrably not the case.
@ Komoda
What is special about round one then? What you describe is a constant in combat, so by your reasoning, everyone should be flat footed all the time.
Further, you say combat starts with the initiative roll, but what aspect of combat is the initiative roll representing? None, it is a pure meta game element. The rules are supposed to represent what is happening, and thus any logic about how the rules should work should be based on what the rules are trying to represent rather than basing it on other rules, particularly the purely metagame rules.
Personally, I would say combat should start for a character when they ready themselves for a fight or potential fight. The initiative is then rolled when characters are ready to start trading blows.
Surprise is about being unaware. Flat footed is about someone getting the punch in before you can react.
You can visualize it however you like. I could be that you are still taking the whole scene in. You could have sneezed. You could be in shock. That is what the dice roll is for. To add chaos to the combat.
A "combat mindset" is a very difficult, even impossible, thing to keep up all the time. And even if you could, so could the other guys.
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The GM decides when initiative starts. He can decide it starts when the enemy readies actions, or he can decide it starts when the enemy makes their attacks.
Either way, I don't allow readied actions outside of combat. If creatures are waiting to surprise an enemy, their 'readied actions' are just their surprise round actions. If someone detects them, then even if they were going for the surprise attack, the victim might just have faster reflexes and beat them to the punch.
Surprise is about being unaware. Flat footed is about someone getting the punch in before you can react.
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Incorrect. The only way to hit someone regardless of what the rules say, is to hit them before they can react, thus that aspect is more represented bAC. In real combat, the first strike nearly never hits target unless the victim wasn't expecting a fight before the first blow. Combatants hit each other by making an attack that wasn't expected, or that can't be avoided (generally because of responding to another attack).
I'm not exactly inexperienced in combat.
You see an attack coming and you respond (which may or may not be successful).
There is nothing about that equation that changes just because the attack is the first attack of a battle.
Thus a different mechanic is for if that equation changes, say for example, "You don't see the attack, and can't respond."
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The surprise round is specifically called out when you are unaware that your attacker is there, or that it is an attacker, like someone walking down a crowded street.
The change in the equation is that the flat footed person is not ready, even though they know the enemy is near. Action beats reaction every time.
In real combat, the first strike on a flat-footed person usually kills them. That is combat, not "fighting."
I am not exactly inexperienced in combat either.
AC represents a lot of things. It also represents the physical barrier of steel that a suit of armor provides. Hitting someone does not necessarily mean they did not react, just that they couldn't react well enough. That is why strength is added to the attack. You might go through someone's defense, rather than get around the defenses.
If all the rules for distance are observed, there are limited situations where an enemy should be close enough to you to benefit from you being flat-footed. Of course it might happen plenty enough in a dungeon, but not so much outdoors.
A hidden sniper shooting an enemy from 400 yds out is a surprise round.
A MP walking up to a car during a traffic stop that turns into a shootout is a flat-footed scenario. Both knew the other was there. Both knew it could be deadly. Neither one knew what the other would do.
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The change in the equation is that the flat footed person is not ready, even though they know the enemy is near. Action beats reaction every time.
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But that is the point that I'm making. Sometimes both sides are ready before any attacks are made, but GMs ignore any part of combat prior to the first attack.
Neither side ever knows what the other is going to do. If you want a mechanic to be tied to that, it would apply to every attack, not just the first one.
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When both parties are wary of combat that about to begin, neither should begin the combat flat footed. Both are expecting combat, but as TOZ points out the structuring of a combat round doesn't interact well when both sides are banking held/readied actions.
In the case of both parties expecting the action (and the action does indeed prove to be on those expected terms) the rules don't make alot of sense. For example, if two teams of gladiators are waiting for the start bell to begin their match, whoever goes first shouldn't be catching the other side flatfooted. Fights don't happen in nice orderly turns, the combat is all simultaneous. Initiative order only serves to see what is resolved first. But Komoda is correct in that rules rules say exactly this. The only time such a scenario (both parties expect combat, and the combat begins as expected) makes sense starting combat flat-footed is in formal duelling where one is actually standing there being as still as possible prior to the action, like a gunfight at noon in the wild wild west or a samurai iaijutsu duel. Yet some other formal duels, like jousting, make absolutely no sense at all if the 2nd party is considered flat footed when taking the first attack.
The rules about initiative & flatfootedness really only make sense in the scenario of two parties encountering each other and neither was expecting the fight as it actually occurs. Of course that's a really common scenario, but it's awkward that the rules presume that's how EVERY fight starts.
When I said waiting for a bell to ring, I was being literal. It was an arena where my character was trying to win her freedom.
Besides, all those uncertainties you keep mentioning apply throughout combat, not just the first round.
As for those special attacks that cause flat footed, they do make you unaware of where the next attack is coming from. Even being tripped, one can roll/fall away from an expected attack, being dazed for a moment makes you unaware of your surroundings for a moment (hence the staggering), etc.
I suppose one way to handle a formal duel is to have a third "combatant" signal when to start fighting. In the first round, the signaler raises his hand, and the two actual combatants ready attacks for when the signaler drops his hand (since attacking before he does that would violate the rules of the duel). In the second round, the signaler drops his hand, and the two actual combatants take their readied attacks in initiative order. Since they have already acted in this combat by readying their attacks, neither one is flat footed.
Is there anything in the rules to prevent that from working?
I understand abstracting things, but the results should somewhat mimic a simulation. Abstracting things in a way to gain results completely different from even a simplified simulation, is just not right. Hence having a GM who theoretically can adjust things as needed instead of having every possibility mapped out in black and white. The rules should be supporting this process, not the other way around.
.ninjad
That would solve only one type of situation.
Point is that the first round of combat should be before the first attack more often.
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I suppose one way to handle a formal duel is to have a third "combatant" signal when to start fighting. In the first round, the signaler raises his hand, and the two actual combatants ready attacks for when the signaler drops his hand (since attacking before he does that would violate the rules of the duel). In the second round, the signaler drops his hand, and the two actual combatants take their readied attacks in initiative order. Since they have already acted in this combat by readying their attacks, neither one is flat footed.
Is there anything in the rules to prevent that from working?
It's perfectly within the rules near as I can tell, if unnecessarily convoluted.
I find it more elegant to just allow such combatants to start without being flatfooted.
You end up with the same result either way. But if you have some reason you don't want to (or can't) use House Rules, your idea is a fine way to legally come to the same result as house ruling against flatfootedness.
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Did I read someone saying that those who attacked in the surprise round were still flat-footed during the first round? Because I would have to strongly disagree with that. The surprise round is part of combat. The language about your "first regular turn in initiative order" was added after a debate concerning taking an Attack of Opportunity using combat reflexes. I would not read anything into it about the surprise round.
In fact, anyone acting in the surprise round at my table still acts in initiative order. Initiative is rolled, and I say, "there will be a surprise round." Then those eligible to participate in that round act according to their initiative, while everyone else picks their jaws up off the ground.
The surprise round mechanic is a shortcut for when one party gets a flat footed situation on another party. Just because there are two mechanics doesn't mean they must represent completely different things. Sometimes it is a matter of having different ways of handling a situation. After all the game system is a tool, not a law.
They did make a system like that. It was a real pain in the butt. You described your actions before rolling initiative. Then you roll. When it was your turn, if you wanted to change what you were doing, you dropped down in the order and had to wait.
That happened every round. It was bad.
That's not the only possibility though.
When you abstract, you can approximate the actual thing, or you can abstract it till their is no connection between the abstract rules and the actual thing.
Metaphorically speaking, you can make a picture of a person and it can be "realistic" like a good sketch, it can be a good approximate like anime, or it can be unrelated like cubism.
This is something that has gone cubism, when it needs to be anime. That doesn't mean making more complex rules.
Quite simply everything mentioned thus far in favor of having the flatfooted rule either should apply every round not just the first, or was basically trying to rationalize things to fit the rule instead of fitting the rule to what it is capturing.
Quite simply, if it applies to every round, then it needs to be applied every round. If it is conditional, then it needs to apply to an in game conditional, not a metagame element.
Did it ever occur to you that the flat footed rule on first round depends entirely on how the GM defines the first round of combat? The rules don't define when the first round occurs. Nothing in the rules says that combat must start on the first round that someone makes an attack. Despite this, you guys keep rationalizing this as though it connects to something represented by the rule, but there is nothing that the rule is tied to in-universe. The GM could start combat when perception checks are made, many rounds prior to the first attack roll and it would suddenly change things because this flat footed thing wouldn't come into play. Thus it needs to be fixed to whatever it is trying to represent.
Personally, I think flat footed is for beyond the normal uncertainties of combat (otherwise it would be every attack and imply that a person is incapable of dodging anything, which is absurd). Thus, being flat footed needs to be tied to something specific in-universe so players can look at that thing and say whether it applies or not based on what is going on in the game and not based on the GMs whim.
Did it ever occur to you that the flat footed rule on first round depends entirely on how the GM defines the first round of combat?
It's not entirely up to the GM - the players can initiate combat (and an initiate roll) at any time by attempting a combat action.
The GM could start combat when perception checks are made, many rounds prior to the first attack roll
If the GM declares 'roll initiative' after the PCs and the NPCs have just noticed one another, why would you assume the PCs would take no action for many rounds?
Most people are fairly sluggish to react to attacks at first. If you don't want to play such a character, take the Combat Reflexes feat, which eliminates the penalty.
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Incorrect about the Combat Reflexes, it does not eliminate flat-footed during the surprise round, only allows you to take AOO while flat-footed:
You can make additional attacks of opportunity.
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special: The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use her opportunist ability more than once per round.
Uncanny Dodge is what you're thinking of?
Initiative is about speed and reflexes. Faster combatants have an advantage over slower ones.
There is almost never a "bell" to start combat. Usually there are just two or more people (monsters, etc.) eyeballing each other. There is a brief moment where everyone considers options. Think of it at an "assessment" period where each combatant is thinking about what to do - does it see me, can I sneak into position, should I draw a weapon, do I charge, do I throw a dagger, do I cast a spell, do I negotiate, heck, is this even a fight I might win or should I run away?
Even the monster is thinking this kind of stuff.
This could be just a split-second of indecision. Even the best professional fighters have indecision - just watch a boxing or MMA match and see how often professional fighters start forward, change their mind, circle, halfway throw a punch but abort it, etc., while they're figuring out what to do.
Then someone finishes "assessing" and smacks someone - the faster combatant with better speed and reflexes smacks the slower one. It's good to be fast.
But that slower combatant is still in "assessment" mode, still figuring out what to do, and is not as good at defending himself as he will me in just a couple more seconds. Hence he's flat-footed.
All of the above explains flat-footed in the first round even without considering a surprise round (surprise makes it even easier to imagine so no explanation is needed).
Even in the case of a literal "bell" as in the arena match mentioned above, both fighters are waiting for the bell but only one of them reacts first while the other one is still in "assessment" mode, just a little slower to react to the bell.
Quite simply everything mentioned thus far in favor of having the flatfooted rule either should apply every round not just the first, ...
Quite simply, if it applies to every round, then it needs to be applied every round.
Don't think of "rounds" as separate blocks of time. They aren't.
In a real fight, with no referees and no timekeeper, everyone just moves, attacks, defends, counters, etc., as fast and efficiently as they can. Even if such a fight lasts, say, two minutes, that fight is not 20 consecutive 6-second intervals. It's just one long two-minute brawl.
Pathfinder combat is like that, but for the sake of keeping track of things we players (including GMs) use time intervals to simplify our task of tracking what is going on and determining how often we can do things. But for the fighters, wizards, orcs, dragons, etc., there are no "rounds".
So what happens at the start of a fight only happens once - there is only one brief moment where everyone is figuring out what to do and might be caught flat-footed while they're getting their bearings. After that, it's just one long brawl.
Another way to think of what I'm trying to say here is that if a fighter is in combat with the orc and the fighter has an initiative score of 20 and the orc has an initiative score of 3, the fighter will go first in round 1, catching the orc unprepared (flat-footed) while the orc gets his bearings. If the orc lives, he becomes normal (not flat-footed) and he attacks, then the fighter attacks after the orc, then the orc attacks after the fighter, then the fighter attacks after the orc, etc.
Note that I didn't mention any other rounds, just round one - the fighter and the orc are essentially trading blows, one after the other, back and forth, for however long it takes. You and I will track that in initiative rounds but it doesn't really matter anymore; both the fighter and the orc are simply hacking away at each other, as fast as they can, with no knowledge of "rounds" at all.
You are assuming that everyone will be "assessing" until the first strike. What happens when they are 30' apart? Even if one decides to charge, the other has plenty of chance to stop "assessing" and dodge the attack.
I even have dodged flying bars and crowbars from a trailer on a freeway with less than a second to react. The ability to dodge and use reflexes to avoid being hit is not hindered by an opponent acting first. For example dex can be applied to avoid falling down a pit trap, which by it's nature is taking the character by surprise, and yet you say I shouldn't get my dex bonus when I full well know an attack is coming? Do you not see the contradiction here?
Further, taking uncanny dodge is not possible as it applies only to particular classes (another example of why classes are on my dislike list), basically you don't choose it, either you get it or you don't.
Further, you say "assessing" like it only happens at the beginning, but assessing occurs throughout the fight. In combat you're constantly assessing the opponent.
Even more, if the first attack should always be made against a flat footed AC in combat, why is it attached to first round where only some characters might get attacked? Why is it not attached to the first attack in a fight? What about when initiative is rolled early enough that both sides need to move up before being in attack range? How are these things you're talking about represented then?
You are assuming that everyone will be "assessing" until the first strike. What happens when they are 30' apart? Even if one decides to charge, the other has plenty of chance to stop "assessing" and dodge the attack.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the charging guy changes the defender's assessment.
But your point is well-made.
So what we really need is, oh, I don't know, a giant list of several thousand possible combat situations covering every possible way combat could begin with every possible kind of enemy, ally, spell, weapon, distance, special ability, etc. Each of these situations should cover in minute detail exactly what we can and cannot do in the first round and how surprised every combatant will be.
Is that what we need?
It appears the game designers disagree; they went for an extremely simple rule that covers the vast majority of combat situations and left it up to individual GMs to decide just how much "GM Fiat" they want to apply to the edge cases that don't seem to fit the simple rule very well.
The ability to dodge and use reflexes to avoid being hit is not hindered by an opponent acting first.
And yet in every fight, every single fight, in all the history of mankind, someone always attacks first. Any coincidence of simultaneous attacks, measured to a small enough slice of time (i.e. nanoseconds) accounts for such a tiny percentage as to be negligible.
Does going first automatically mean your opponent is less able to defend himself?
Maybe not.
Maybe it's just a gamist mechanic to give a little incentive to PCs, NPCs, and monsters to invest in +Initiative modifiers instead of investing in the obviously more useful +Damage modifiers - at least a few such combatants make the investment and, thanks to the Flat-Footed rules, it seems like it might be worth it.
For example dex can be applied to avoid falling down a pit trap, which by it's nature is taking the character by surprise, and yet you say I shouldn't get my dex bonus when I full well know an attack is coming? Do you not see the contradiction here?
Sounds like a good house rule. Talk it over with your GM. Maybe a REF save to avoid being flat-footed.
Your party's rogue (or other sneak attacker) won't thank you when the monsters are negating his best damage ability using this house rule, but if it works for your group, go for it.
Further, taking uncanny dodge is not possible as it applies only to particular classes (another example of why classes are on my dislike list), basically you don't choose it, either you get it or you don't.
Well, the multiclass option is available if you think the ability is worth it, but you're right, Uncanny Dodge won't be available to everyone.
Nor should it be.
But if you want, make another house rule to turn Uncanny Dodge into a feat that anyone can take if they care to. This way, anyone who cares enough about not being flat-footed can acquire the ability.
Further, you say "assessing" like it only happens at the beginning, but assessing occurs throughout the fight. In combat you're constantly assessing the opponent.
The beginning of the fight can occur in split-seconds. The time between a fighter attacking on initiative 20 and a flat-footed orc attacking on initiative 3 is no specified anywhere in the rules. It could be just a fraction of a second, or it could be nearly 6 seconds, or anywhere in between.
Since it's not specified, it's easy to fluff it as "split second".
However, the time between the fighter attacking on initiative 20 in the first round and then attacking again on initiative 20 in the second round is exactly 6 seconds. Exactly. Plenty of time to "assess" and react and defend and attack.
I see no conflict.
Even more, if the first attack should always be made against a flat footed AC in combat, why is it attached to first round where only some characters might get attacked? Why is it not attached to the first attack in a fight?
I don't understand this question.
EVERY combatant is eligible to be attacked while flat-footed - they could even be attacked dozens of times if there are enough enemies who beat their initiative, assuming the flat-footed guy is in reach or in range to be attacked.
EVERY combatant is eligible to make attacks against flat-footed enemies - they can make all their attacks, dual wielding, iteratives, multi-attack, whatever, against any combatant with a lower initiative who is in reach or in range, and enjoy the benefit of EVERY attack being against that enemy's flat-footed AC.
So I really don't get your question.
What about when initiative is rolled early enough that both sides need to move up before being in attack range? How are these things you're talking about represented then?
Invalid question. As soon as your side moves up, the first time you do it in round 1, you have taken your turn and are no longer flat-footed. You simply "assess" while you move up and Presto!, you're not flat-footed against any attacks in this whole combat.