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Shouldn't Cayden Cailean have the Liberation Domain?


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Qadira

Does anyone else think this is strange? Cayden Cailean, the god of freedom, ale, wine, and bravery. Who is often depicted wearing broken shackles and who is a major opponent of slavery, does not grant access to the Liberation Domain.

Yet, Desna. The goddess of dreams, stars, travelers, and luck. Does grant access to the Liberation Domain.

I think perhaps this may be an overlooked errata, maybe Liberation and Charm between the two of them need to be switched.

Anyone else notice this strangeness?


3 people marked this as a favorite.

hm... maybe the libation domain...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Amusingly enough I think there was also a "Liberator" prestige class in the CC writeup in SD

Qadira

Abraham spalding wrote:
hm... maybe the libation domain...

Funny, although it took me a moment to realize you didn't just mispell liberation.

I wonder what sort of domain powers would be granted by Libation?

Andrew Betts wrote:

Amusingly enough I think there was also a "Liberator" prestige class in the CC writeup in SD

I'm pretty sure your correct about there being a Liberator prestige class, but I don't know for sure what book it was in.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Andrew Betts wrote:
Amusingly enough I think there was also a "Liberator" prestige class in the CC writeup in SD

Chevalier, IIRC. Pathfinder #14.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Liberation is far more tied to Milani, the Goddess of Insurrection. I guess it's her playground and she would not be happy about taking her basis of existence away :)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
Andrew Betts wrote:
Amusingly enough I think there was also a "Liberator" prestige class in the CC writeup in SD
Chevalier, IIRC. Pathfinder #14.

The Liberator prestige class is in the Second Darkness Players' Guide.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Liberation is far more tied to Milani, the Goddess of Insurrection. I guess it's her playground and she would not be happy about taking her basis of existence away :)

Not to mention given that she had it first. So unless Milani snuffs the big one, it's not available for any other to claim.


Yeah, I recently noticed that, too. Doesn't make sense if you ask me.

LazarX wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Liberation is far more tied to Milani, the Goddess of Insurrection. I guess it's her playground and she would not be happy about taking her basis of existence away :)
Not to mention given that she had it first. So unless Milani snuffs the big one, it's not available for any other to claim.

And yet, Desna already has the domain, and Cayden already is the god of freedom.

Plus, Milani is a minor goddess, they're niche deities, anyway.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

6 people marked this as a favorite.

*Milani wakes up after a long night with Cayden.*

Hey! Where'd my Domain go?

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I suppose Desna has it as it first turned up in her write-up in PF#2.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Cayden is also the god of Freedom while Milani is the patron of those who fight oppression which is what Liberation is all about.

And it's appropriate. Milani's clerics are activists, Cayden himself really isn't that concerned about advancing an agenda, just pretty much keeping to his own and keeping out of other's entanglements. His clerics prize thier own freedom, but they aren't neccessarily are going to lay it on the line to rescue others from bondage the way Milani's clerics might.

Individual exceptions of course may apply, but that's why Liberation isn't one of his domains.


LazarX wrote:


His clerics prize thier own freedom, but they aren't neccessarily are going to lay it on the line to rescue others from bondage the way Milani's clerics might.

Reading the Cayden Article in Children of the Void, I get a very strong vibe of a guy who hates slavery and tyranny and will go out of his way to fight against it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I kinda agree with Lazar. Cayden is about having good fun, tasty drinks and great company. If somebody tries to stamp that out - sure, he will fight it. But he's not a "let's lay down our lives in war against oppression" type - that's Milani.

IOW: Cayden in Cheliax - he would be cool unless somebody would try to close his fave tavern, jail his best drinking buddies or harass that sweet lady from the nice brothel next door

Milani in Cheliax - Forward, for freedom and victory ! Have at thee, diabolic tyrant !


Where is my post???

I gathered text passages from the Cayden Cailean article in Children of the Void where it says his mandates, while a bit flexible, are unbending when it comes to slavery, that he will kill slavers, or at least buy slaves and later rob the slaver blind so he got no profit.

And so on and so forth. Cayden is CG, not CN. He wants to help others, not just be left alone to do what he wants. He's concerned with everyone's freedom, not just his own.

And Milani is a minor goddes, and thus only gets a minor portfolio - uprising is a small part of liberation, there's also raids on slavers, finding peaceful solutions to oppression, or leading an exodus.

Just like Achaekek is just god of paid murder, while Norgorber is god of murder in general.

Grand Lodge

Bump? Anyone? At this point I've just houseruled a switch between the two, but something official would be kinda nice. Maybe an errata? I mean c'mon his clerics, by Gods and Magic, can spontaneously cast Knock to open welds, shackles, and chains USED TO IMPRISON OR HOBBLE SOMEONE.

The only taboo they have is enslaving someone, holding someone against their will, denying them freedom... so... Liberation? I leave with a quote from Faiths of Purity;

"There are few hard and fast rules in the teachings of Cayden Cailean, but there is one rule that never bends; you are forbidden to deal in human misery, wether that means involvement in the slave trade, or oppressing the weak to benefit the strong."


Rise!


It's a question I've already asked multiple times in other threads.

I guess the official answer would be "Because we, uh, wrote it that way."

There doesn't seem to be a logical reason, though.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Cayden Cailean having Liberation as a Domain would make perfect sense. So would War actually, as he was a professional warior in life, after all. And Glory's eminently appropriate to him too, now that I think on it.

Speaking of which, why doesn't Sarenrae have War? She's definitely a martial deity. And why does Shelyn lack Artifice? Or Iomedae and Asmodeus both lack Nobility? Or Rovagug Strength? Why does Lamashtu lack Animal, despite having explicitly eaten Churcanus's dominion over beasts? Desna also lacks Darkness, despite her night-time affiliation, and Nethys Artifice, despite being the God of magic-item creation in a very real sense.

By choosing to give the Deities an equal number of domains each, and defining them as all having Alignment domains if possible, the folks at Paizo inherently limited how many thematic domains could be granted to any individual deity. Especialy one like Cayden Cailean who has two of his five pre-decided.

Now, if you think Liberation is more appropriate to him than an existing Domain by all means give it to him...but which is it more central to his character than? Charm, Strength or Travel? I'd be inclined to say not. Maybe Chaos, but that violates some rules...

Perhaps you could give each of the Big 20 an extra Domain elevating them above other Gods (as the most powerful and most worshipped) in which case Liberation is the obvious addition for Cayden Cailean. Heck, I've given options for many of the others as well. Hell, now that I think on it, I might even do that...

EDIT:
If doing this, these are the Domains I'd go with:

Erastil: Weather
Iomedae: Nobility
Torag: Community
Sarenrae: Protection
Shelyn: Artifice
Cayden Cailean: Liberation
Desna: Darkness
Abadar: Community
Irori: Water
Gozreh: Travel
Pharasma: Rune
Nethys: Artifice
Calistria: Air
Gorum: Artifice
Asmodeus: Nobility
Zon-Kuthon: Madness
Norgorber: Rune
Urgathoa: Earth
Lamashtu: Animal
Rovagug: Strength

Most are pretty self-explanatory, I think and all either fit the existing thematics or add an appropriate additional one (Urgathoa's Earth association makes sense with her focus on the grave, for example). I even got some of the lesser-used Domains (Nobility, Community, elemental stuff) a bit wider circulation.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

My point on Milani being about liberation and Cayden being about freedom stands.

Cayden despises oppression and slavery. But that's just part of his agenda, which is "have fun, drink a lot, do what you want to do and harm no-one while at it"

Milani considers eradicating both to be the nexus of her existence. It's what she exists for.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Tilquinith wrote:

Does anyone else think this is strange? Cayden Cailean, the god of freedom, ale, wine, and bravery. Who is often depicted wearing broken shackles and who is a major opponent of slavery, does not grant access to the Liberation Domain.

Yet, Desna. The goddess of dreams, stars, travelers, and luck. Does grant access to the Liberation Domain.

I think perhaps this may be an overlooked errata, maybe Liberation and Charm between the two of them need to be switched.

Anyone else notice this strangeness?

Desna had the portfolio before Johnny Come Lately, and I doubt she's going to give it up.

Andoran

Gorbacz wrote:

My point on Milani being about liberation and Cayden being about freedom stands.

Cayden despises oppression and slavery. But that's just part of his agenda, which is "have fun, drink a lot, do what you want to do and harm no-one while at it"

Milani considers eradicating both to be the nexus of her existence. It's what she exists for.

True. Desna having it when he doesn't is a bit odd, though. It's hardly the center of her existence in the same way.


Make up a cleric. Choose an appropriate alignment. Select Liberation and something else as domains. Say your cleric worships Cayden. Problem solved. :)


Spes Magna Mark wrote:
Make up a cleric. Choose an appropriate alignment. Select Liberation and something else as domains. Say your cleric worships Cayden. Problem solved. :)

+1

Contributor

7 people marked this as a favorite.

Ingredients:

* 1 unstated rule that all deities grant their alignment domains, even if the deity isn't really a proponent of that alignment
* 1 unstated rule that deities grant no more than 5 domains

Recipe:

* mix ingredients
* wait for dumb things to happen


Well, Sean, you can fix it, you're a designer. :p

Still waiting for the Monk to get that work-over you talked about a year ago or so, btw... ;)

But, seriously, I've been asking myself a long time what Desna has to do with Liberation which makes her a superior choice to get that domain over the god of freedom. ^^

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

How can Cayden Cailean not have the Libation domain?

Deadmanwalking wrote:


Iomedae: Nobility
Torag: Community
Sarenrae: Protection
Shelyn: Artifice
Cayden Cailean: Liberation
Desna: Darkness
Abadar: Community
Nethys: Artifice
Asmodeus: Nobility
Zon-Kuthon: Madness
Lamashtu: Animal
Rovagug: Strength

These in particular really sing to me.

Andoran

Mikaze wrote:
These in particular really sing to me.

Those are actually precisely the ones that just leapt out at me immediately. :)

The others involved more reaching on my part, but I wanted to be consistent, and some have grown on me (I like Gozreh having Travel and Urgathoa having Earth quite a bit, having thought a bit on those, and Artifice fits the Lord In Iron surprisingly well). I might actually add this to my House Rule document (to go with my revised Inquisitions list and revised Cleric Class skills by deity lists...I really like Golarion's deities, can people tell?)


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Wait, Zon-Kuthon doesn't have Madness? o_O

Osirion

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
* 1 unstated rule that all deities grant their alignment domains, even if the deity isn't really a proponent of that alignment

[tangent]

I don't know if this was your doing or not, but I *love* how Istus, in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, gave both the Chaos and Law domains (despite being Neutral, herself). That was totally appropriate for her, and tossed that unspoken rule to the wind.
[/tangent]

Andoran

blahpers wrote:
Wait, Zon-Kuthon doesn't have Madness? o_O

No, he really doesn't. It's a little weird. As is Abadar being the only one with Nobility and Erastil the only one with Community, or Torag the only one with Artifice (and, obviously, Desna being the only one with Liberation). I really do think I'm going to actually go with that list from now on...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

It's not just domains either. There's some odd Oracle mystery and Inquisitor....inquisition assignments and non-assignments here and there too.

I think mysteries are pretty loose with those assignments as far as Golarion canon goes, so it's not much of a hindrance there, but Zon-Kuthon stands out as a good example with inquisitions: He lacks the Torture Inquisition of all things. And he's also assigned the Oblivion Inquisition(along with Desna) which really isn't his bag at all. Those two gods having their name associated with it half-convinced me that Inquisition was actually meant to be "Void", as in outer space/dark-places-beyond-the-edge-of-reality.

Easy enough to fix for fair GMs familiar with these deities of course.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Set wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
* 1 unstated rule that all deities grant their alignment domains, even if the deity isn't really a proponent of that alignment

[tangent]

I don't know if this was your doing or not, but I *love* how Istus, in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, gave both the Chaos and Law domains (despite being Neutral, herself). That was totally appropriate for her, and tossed that unspoken rule to the wind.
[/tangent]

Hear hear.

Andoran

Mikaze wrote:
It's not just domains either. There's some odd Oracle mystery and Inquisitor....inquisition assignments and non-assignments here and there too.

The Inquisitions (and, I believe, Mysteries) there's at least some excuse: James Jacobs (who's in charge of the world stuff) apparently didn't get consulted on them since they were introduced in Rulebook line books, not Campaign Setting books. Presumably whoever did them was...less than conversant in the deities in question.

Though I must admit, I like Desna having Oblivion. She's basically a friendly Elder God in a lot of ways, so it makes sense to me. It was Calistria not having Vengeance and Zon-Kuthon lacking Torture that really convinced me that the Inquisitions by deity list needed a comprehensive re-write.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor

My take on it...Yes.

Contributor

IIRC Istus's domains were me, Roger, or Erik.

As for oracle mysteries, they shouldn't have deities assigned to them in the first place. *shrug*


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

IIRC Istus's domains were me, Roger, or Erik.

As for oracle mysteries, they shouldn't have deities assigned to them in the first place. *shrug*

Yeah, I know that always makes me think WTF every time I see the deity listings on the oracle mysteries. I ignore them of course, but still. I just dread a day when I run into a GM who is more of a rules lawyer than me (and trust me, I can be a bad one)and is like "No, to be a Battle Oracle you cannot worship Bemsara, you must worship one of the deities listed."

Heh, that example is cause I am working on a Black-Blooded Halfling Battle Oracle that worships Besmara (I realize oracles don't have to pick a deity, but my concept is she worships Besmara, being an oracle has nothing to do with it.)

Silver Crusade

Unhelpful Reply: Cayden Cailean's lack of the Liberation domain clearly shows he's a 'plant' to undermine our freedoms on behalf of the global elite, just another part of the NWO! (I leave it up to you whether I refer to the late 90s/early 2000s pro wrestling stable or the conspiracy theory. Either outcome is equally ridiculous and I hope one of them will be house-ruled as canon in your campaigns)

Possibly More Helpful: Cayden seems to be subject to alternate character interpretation. Some people seem to view him as the deity of wandering benevolent swashbucklers, e.g. more competent and helpful Guybrush Threepwoods. Others take his 'god of freedom' aspect more seriously.

I am purely guessing, but do you suppose in conjunction with the 'rules' Sean mentioned above this would have resulted in the lack of Liberation domain for Cayden?

Andoran

Set wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
* 1 unstated rule that all deities grant their alignment domains, even if the deity isn't really a proponent of that alignment

[tangent]

I don't know if this was your doing or not, but I *love* how Istus, in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, gave both the Chaos and Law domains (despite being Neutral, herself). That was totally appropriate for her, and tossed that unspoken rule to the wind.
[/tangent]

I remember that Nimb, the god of Chaos in Tormenta, a brazilian campaign setting, had "chaos and any other 4" as his domains back in 3.0


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Tilquinith wrote:
I wonder what sort of domain powers would be granted by Libation?

:)

Libation Domain

Granted Powers: You can augment your spells with a libation. A libation is a pouring out of wine or other liquid in honor of your deity.

Libation (Su): If you pour out a libation as part of the somatic and material components of a cleric spell that you cast, that spell takes effect as if your caster level were one level higher than it actually is. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier. A libation costs at least 10 gold pieces and weighs 1/2 pound.

Greater Libation (Su): At 8th level, your libations increase in power. In addition to boosting your caster level, your libation also applies one of these metamagic feats (chosen at time of casting) to your spell with no change in the spell's effective level: Bouncing Spell, Disruptive Spell, Ectoplasmic Spell, Elemental Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Flaring Spell, Focused Spell, Intensified Spell, Lingering Spell, Piercing Spell, Rime Spell, Silent Spell, or Toppling Spell.

Domain Spells: 1st—bless, 2nd—blessing of courage and life, 3rd—prayer, 4th—blessing of fervor, 5th—cleanse, 6th—heroes' feast, 7th—greater restoration, 8th—euphoric tranquility, 9th—mass heal.

Andoran

I find it a bit odd he isn't given the Luck domain either, considering how much luck played a role in him becoming a deity in the first place! Heck, one of his titles is "The Lucky Drunk!" :P

Edit: I need to learn to look at the dates on threads I find in google =/


My cleric of Cayden Cailean now wants that Libation domain. Cayden doesn't get nearly enough good press.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Ingredients:

* 1 unstated rule that all deities grant their alignment domains, even if the deity isn't really a proponent of that alignment
* 1 unstated rule that deities grant no more than 5 domains

Recipe:

* mix ingredients
* wait for dumb things to happen

I'd urge you to axe the first unstated rule next time you revisit the setting fundamentals. Like when you update to the inevitable Pathfinder 2.0. You're already near to being the longest running D&D edition and cracks are showing.

All major deities having the same number of domains is good balance. Having the bland, uninteresting alignment domains isn't good balance or good fluff. I'd be inclined to make them just go away. It'd save page space that might be used to make the surviving domains more interesting.

Grand Lodge

*Realizes this thread is long dead*

I would personally like to see the rule read that alignment domains can be picked if you and your deity both have that alignment. Then I would be more OK with limiting the deities to only 5 domains. I think this would allow for more flexibility.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
Wait, Zon-Kuthon doesn't have Madness? o_O

He's sado-masochistic, but not chaotically insane Joker style. There IS a difference.


Create a Cleric of Cayden Cailean, take the Separatist Archetype, choose Liberation as Domain. Done


Tilquinith wrote:

Does anyone else think this is strange? Cayden Cailean, the god of freedom, ale, wine, and bravery. Who is often depicted wearing broken shackles and who is a major opponent of slavery, does not grant access to the Liberation Domain.

Yet, Desna. The goddess of dreams, stars, travelers, and luck. Does grant access to the Liberation Domain.

I think perhaps this may be an overlooked errata, maybe Liberation and Charm between the two of them need to be switched.

Anyone else notice this strangeness?

I dunno, but if I was going to stat out clerics for him, I'd need to homebrew a hypocrisy domain just for him.


I think him not having the revelry domain is a more glaring error. The god of drinking and celebration really should have revelry as a domain. Too bad they can't go back and add appropriate domains to older dieties when they come up with them.

I'll definately be playing a seperatist cleric of him with the revelry domain.


Ashiel wrote:
I dunno, but if I was going to stat out clerics for him, I'd need to homebrew a hypocrisy domain just for him.

Now that sounds a bit hostile.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
magnuskn wrote:
Now that sounds a bit hostile.

Eh. It's part of the deity. He's a god that espouses responsible drinking, when irresponsible drinking and stupid drunken decisions are what gave him his power.

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