Shouldn't Cayden Cailean have the Liberation Domain?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Aratrok wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Now that sounds a bit hostile.
Eh. It's part of the deity. He's a god that espouses responsible drinking, when irresponsible drinking and stupid drunken decisions are what gave him his power.

This. :)


Maybe he learned from it, and is more responsible as a drinker now?

/duck


Rathendar wrote:

Maybe he learned from it, and is more responsible as a drinker now?

/duck

What did he learn from it, other than being irresponsible makes you awesome?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Now that sounds a bit hostile.
Eh. It's part of the deity. He's a god that espouses responsible drinking, when irresponsible drinking and stupid drunken decisions are what gave him his power.
This. :)

We really don't know Caydean's story, or how he passed his test. for all we know he may have been super competent but part of the price of passing was forgetting how he did it.

We don't even have an idea of who or what sets the criterion for passing.

Also keep in mind that I suspect that part of the reason that Caydean advocates responsible drinking is to help enhance the family friendliness of what's supposed to be a "Good" diety.


LazarX wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Now that sounds a bit hostile.
Eh. It's part of the deity. He's a god that espouses responsible drinking, when irresponsible drinking and stupid drunken decisions are what gave him his power.
This. :)

We really don't know Caydean's story, or how he passed his test. for all we know he may have been super competent but part of the price of passing was forgetting how he did it.

We don't even have an idea of who or what sets the criterion for passing.

Also keep in mind that I suspect that part of the reason that Caydean advocates responsible drinking is to help enhance the family friendliness of what's supposed to be a "Good" diety.

What we do know is that he got wasted drunk (which is extremely irresponsible) and took a foolish dare, and woke up the next morning as a god, who then professes not to drink irresponsibly.

It's like hearing someone who won the lottery criticizing people who play the lottery. It's like, "Really dude? Really?"


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Well the poor guy likely woke up with a God-sized hangover. That might be enough for anyone to consider cutting down. I'm imagining going from my "I can drink anything I want" early twenties to "Oh my god, someone has filled my brain with glue and rusty nails!" late twenties.


Maybe he didn't want to become a God. Now he can't have the same fun.
"Don't get drunk, guys, see what a mess I did! You don't want to end like me, do you?"

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Now that sounds a bit hostile.
Eh. It's part of the deity. He's a god that espouses responsible drinking, when irresponsible drinking and stupid drunken decisions are what gave him his power.
This. :)

Uh...that's not what Cayden Cailean advocates.

To quote his deity article (and the only sections that speak to how he feels about what kind of drinking is appropriate):

Inner Sea Gods wrote:
As the god of wine, Cayden's interest is in the merriment and socialization alcohol can facilitate rather than attempting to drown or forget sorrows, and he despises mean drunks or those who allow their drunkenness to hurt innocents.
Inner Sea Gods wrote:
The church is also aware that some folk drink to the extent that it becomes a crutch or a poison to the will. Cayden Cailean and his priests believe this is a corruption and abuse of his favorite things, and sometimes a priest takes it upon himself to counsel these poor souls, often using minor magic to bolster a patient's resolve and steering the person toward work or activities that improve the patient's life and negate the need to drown his or her sorrows.

So...he appears to be against alcoholism and drinking for reasons other than having fun, and against hurting others with your drunken behavior. That's it. And he didn't do any of that...so no hypocrisy here. He's definitely not an advocate of 'responsible drinking' in the sense of not ever getting really drunk.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Now that sounds a bit hostile.
Eh. It's part of the deity. He's a god that espouses responsible drinking, when irresponsible drinking and stupid drunken decisions are what gave him his power.
This. :)

We really don't know Caydean's story, or how he passed his test. for all we know he may have been super competent but part of the price of passing was forgetting how he did it.

We don't even have an idea of who or what sets the criterion for passing.

Also keep in mind that I suspect that part of the reason that Caydean advocates responsible drinking is to help enhance the family friendliness of what's supposed to be a "Good" diety.

What we do know is that he got wasted drunk (which is extremely irresponsible) and took a foolish dare, and woke up the next morning as a god, who then professes not to drink irresponsibly.

It's like hearing someone who won the lottery criticizing people who play the lottery. It's like, "Really dude? Really?"

1. first by whose standards? What do hard working hard fighting men usually do when they get the chance? Go to an inn and get themselves plastered. It's a rather standard trope.

2. Again, I suspect the responsibility part is to ease the nerves of the Player Parent Police. or possibly to extend the lifespans of one's clerics. Take your pick. Keep in mind that unlike the average member of this trope, Caydean IS good-aligned. I'm sure that has something to do with it.


Proposal: make two Neutral alignment domains, one for neutrality-between-good-and-evil and the other for neutrality-between-law-and-chaos; then state that each god grants X number of domains based on his/her purviews, plus the two appropriate alignment domains.

(Although I don't see why gods should be limited to five domains; divine casters are nearly always limited to two, so how is it a problem for gods to grant more than five?)


LazarX wrote:
1. first by whose standards? What do hard working hard fighting men usually do when they get the chance? Go to an inn and get themselves plastered. It's a rather standard trope.

Willingly losing your sensibilities is probably about as irresponsible as you can get.

Quote:
2. Again, I suspect the responsibility part is to ease the nerves of the Player Parent Police.

Most likely.

Quote:
or possibly to extend the lifespans of one's clerics.

Remove disease.

Quote:
Keep in mind that unlike the average member of this trope, Caydean IS good-aligned. I'm sure that has something to do with it.

Pretty sure irresponsibility is a chaotic thing. That would definitely have to do with his being chaotic good. Drinking responsibility would be lawful (trustworthiness, reliability), while drinking irresponsibly is one of the common vices (recklessness, unreliability) of the chaotic alignment.

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:
Pretty sure irresponsibility is a chaotic thing. That would definitely have to do with his being chaotic good. Drinking responsibility would be lawful (trustworthiness, reliability), while drinking irresponsibly is one of the common vices (recklessness, unreliability) of the chaotic alignment.

I'm not sure that's a generally applicable statement (though it is to Cayden Cailean specifically). But far more importantly Cayden Cailean isn't a hypocrite because he doesn't advocate responsible drinking in the way you're defining it. He advocates only drinking in certain moods or for certain reasons...but never advocates only drinking limited amounts.


Gee, I had no idea people were going to get so testy over this. Okay, here ya go, from the Pathfinder Wiki (which has citations for those interested).

Quote:
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon. Similarly, although the faithful of Cayden Cailean are known to actively seek out danger and adventure, they recognize the need to withdraw when a situation turns sour. Stupidity does not equal bravery, and bravery should never be sought at the bottom of a keg.[2]

Said deity is only a deity because he drank in excess. Hence my point. Jeebus though, you'd think I had slighted someone's actual deity or something. *eyerolls*

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:

Gee, I had no idea people were going to get so testy over this. Okay, here ya go, from the Pathfinder Wiki (which has citations for those interested).

Quote:
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon. Similarly, although the faithful of Cayden Cailean are known to actively seek out danger and adventure, they recognize the need to withdraw when a situation turns sour. Stupidity does not equal bravery, and bravery should never be sought at the bottom of a keg.[2]
Said deity is only a deity because he drank in excess. Hence my point. Jeebus though, you'd think I had slighted someone's actual deity or something. *eyerolls*

That reference if from Cayden Cailean's 3.5 article in Second Darkness. As of Inner Sea Gods, it's as obsolete as Asmodean Paladins or Erastil's sexism.

EDIT: And, looking at the article in question, I'm wrong. It has identical wording to what I cited above from Inner Sea Gods. In short, the quote in question is just flat-out wrong regarding anything actually published by Paizo regarding Cayden Cailean. Or at least wrong regarding the source cited.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

Gee, I had no idea people were going to get so testy over this. Okay, here ya go, from the Pathfinder Wiki (which has citations for those interested).

Quote:
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon. Similarly, although the faithful of Cayden Cailean are known to actively seek out danger and adventure, they recognize the need to withdraw when a situation turns sour. Stupidity does not equal bravery, and bravery should never be sought at the bottom of a keg.[2]
Said deity is only a deity because he drank in excess. Hence my point. Jeebus though, you'd think I had slighted someone's actual deity or something. *eyerolls*
That reference if from Cayden Cailean's 3.5 article in Second Darkness. As of Inner Sea Gods, it's as obsolete as Asmodean Paladins or Erastil's sexism.

I wasn't aware that he was ret-conned. First I've heard of it really. Do you have a source saying that this is no longer true?

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:
I wasn't aware that he was ret-conned. First I've heard of it really. Do you have a source saying that this is no longer true?

As edited in above, I'm wrong there. It appears to never have been true. The only citation I have for that is the fact that the two bits I quoted from Inner Sea Gods are the only citations I was able to find in either version of Cayden Cailean's deity article involving the abuse of alcohol. Neither uses the wording you cite, and the wording they do use doesn't imply that all 'drinking to excess' is problematic (the second has similar wording, but is clearly talking addiction, not just getting really drunk)...which removes the hypocrisy thing as a problem.


A poison to the will seems pretty solid to me. If you're so drunk that your ability to make decisions is impaired, that's definitely a poisoned will. At this point I feel like we might just be splitting hairs here. On one hand you have either a god that's a hypocrit, or on another hand a god that promotes destructive drinking as long as it's not being used as a crutch to drown your sorrows. I'm not really seeing a win here in CC's corner, but Pathfinder gods aren't perfect (a number of them have been curbstomped, or played for fools, by mortals; sometimes by the same mortal *wink*).

Liberty's Edge

I'd argue the 'poisons the will' thing is pretty clearly talking addiction, not getting really drunk. There's a distinction there.

And I'm not gonna argue that Cayden Cailean's perfect, and he does indeed advocate drinking a lot...but hypocrisy is quite a bit worse than that, IMO, and not a vice he seems to suffer from.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'd argue the 'poisons the will' thing is pretty clearly talking addiction, not getting really drunk. There's a distinction there.

And I'm not gonna argue that Cayden Cailean's perfect, and he does indeed advocate drinking a lot...but hypocrisy is quite a bit worse than that, IMO, and not a vice he seems to suffer from.

We can agree to disagree then. See, here's the thing...

Dictionary.com wrote:


will
2 [wil] Show IPA
noun
1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.
2. power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.
3. the act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition: My hands are obedient to my will.
4. wish or desire: to submit against one's will.
5. purpose or determination, often hearty or stubborn determination; willfulness: to have the will to succeed.
verb (used with object), willed, will·ing.
9. to decide, bring about, or attempt to effect or bring about by an act of the will: He can walk if he wills it.
10. to purpose, determine on, or elect, by an act of will: If he wills success, he can find it.
11. to give or dispose of (property) by a will or testament; bequeath or devise.
12. to influence by exerting will power: She was willed to walk the tightrope by the hypnotist.
...

So, yeah, I'm not really buying it as an addiction metaphor. Will is will, and if it means addiction that was a pretty poor way of describing it since there are better synonyms to be used for sure. No, I'm pretty sure it means to indulge too much so as to lose your senses, to be under the influence, to impair your ability to make decisions, to - quite literally - poison your will.


Funny, this is exactly what is discussed in the first 2 pages of the inner sea gods :)

Silver Crusade

shadowkras wrote:
Funny, this is exactly what is discussed in the first 2 pages of the inner sea gods :)

Seeing as how I own that book, I really should read it some time. :)


He probably wasn't drunk during the entire Test---just the beginning. The whole thing took three days.

Silver Crusade

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Marius Castille wrote:
He probably wasn't drunk during the entire Test---just the beginning. The whole thing took three days.

I always envision him drunkenly passing the test in a couple of hours, becoming a god, then passing out for 3 days to recover.


Tilquinith wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
hm... maybe the libation domain...

Funny, although it took me a moment to realize you didn't just mispell liberation.

I wonder what sort of domain powers would be granted by Libation?

I wrote the Beer domain for the Midgard Campaign Setting:

Beer Domain:

Deities: Ninkash, Sif

Granted Powers: Ninkash’s sweet nectar invigorates your mind even as it dulls those around you. The secrets of Ninkash’s faith grant you a +2 sacred bonus to Fortitude saves against ingested poisons. Also, Profession: Brewer is now a class skill for you.

Blessed Brew (Su): Once per day, with a touch, you may transform a container of non-magical liquids into a number of draughts of Blessed Brew equal to 3+ your Wisdom modifier, negating any special attributes those liquids may have previously had. Imbibers of this brew may choose to gain either a number of temporary hp equal to half your cleric level (minimum 1), gain a +2 sacred bonus to Charisma based skill checks, a +1 dodge bonus to AC, or a +1 to caster level to Enchantment (Charm) spells. This bonus lasts for an hour, then fades, leaving a warm buzz behind. A creature may benefit from only one Blessed Brew within a 24 hour period.

Aura of Inebriation (Su): At 8th level, you may emit a 30 ft. aura as an immediate action which does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This aura grants allies a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier to morale checks and saves against fear.
All other creatures entering, and for 1 round after leaving the aura, make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + one half your level + your Wisdom modifier) or take a sacred penalty equal to your Wisdom modifier to Wisdom-based skill checks and suffer the effects of the spell touch of gracelessness. A successful save negates the spell effect but not the Wisdom penalty.
This aura may be active for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level and these rounds need not be consecutive. Dispelling this aura is a free action.

Domain Spells: 1st- bless water, 2nd- delay poison, 3rd- cup of dust*, 4th- neutralize poison, 5th- cleanse*, 6th- hero’s feast, 7th- vision, 8th- euphoric tranquility*, 9th- miracle

Subdomains: Family and Loss. The blessings of Ninkash can tighten the bonds of friendship and kin, but their abuse can lead to the failure of those bonds, and so much more.

I'm pretty proud of it and the other domains I wrote for that setting (Moon, Hunger, Birth) and could easily see a cleric of Cayden using it.

Silver Crusade

DoomedPaladin01 wrote:
Tilquinith wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
hm... maybe the libation domain...

Funny, although it took me a moment to realize you didn't just mispell liberation.

I wonder what sort of domain powers would be granted by Libation?

I wrote the Beer domain for the Midgard Campaign Setting:

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm not sure about beer giving a dodge bonus to AC. I'd have made it a -1 penalty to that and maybe -2 sense motive, while giving complete immunity to fear effects.


Fromper wrote:


I'm not sure about beer giving a dodge bonus to AC. I'd have made it a -1 penalty to that and maybe -2 sense motive, while giving complete immunity to fear effects.

The Blessed Brew is supposed to be a reflection of the "Ultimate Beverage." It doesn't have negatives to drinking it. A sip of ambrosia that does the opposite of everything alcohol normally does making them more charismatic, aware, and/or healthy.

Also, negatives in the initial powers of a domain is a great way to have no player ever take it.

Liberty's Edge

Cayden Cailean is my favorite god in Pathfinder, though I think there is a great selection of deities. While I think Ashiel is being far too harsh on the guy, it sounds like Iomedae would agree on that view point of Cayden 100%. Also since he's the god of freedom, it would make sense to me that he would have the liberation domain, since its subdomain is freedom.


According to the Pathfinder wiki, he used to have the Liberation domain in early texts, but apparently someone realized that meant he had 6 domains so it was removed. It is kind of strange, really, since it means that the only god in the Inner Sea pantheon with Liberation is Desna, while all of CC's other domains are shared with at least two other deities. Personally, I'd have dumped the Charm or Travel domain (probably Travel, so that he didn't share 4 out of 5 domains with Desna).

Come to think of it, the description of his herald, Thais, in Inner Sea Gods says that he used to have 6 wings, but one got chopped off by Asmodeus. Maybe this is a reference to that?

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