So... one thing I never did get, and I don't see as being asked before: How are the PCs supposed to tell what 'originally' belongs to Varnhold, and what is for them to loot? Because if I know my players, they will loot anything they can from the empty town to use it later. And who is to tell them differently?
Is it expected that, once they rescue the villagers, they mention the stuff that belongs to Varnhold and expect it back?
I guess I'm just not sure of the best way to handle this, especially since they gain unrest for keeping the treasure, and get Loyalty for not. When there's a kingdom consisting of thousands by this point... how exactly do the 40 or so citizens of Varnhold left really cause that much unrest?
I had the NPC's ask the players did they find anything such as X(mentions very specific items). From this point the players should know that the items belong to the surviving villagers. If not have them make a wisdom + intelligence check with a DC of 10. If everyone rolls so poorly that nobody gets a 10 then have more villagers ask for more things.
If the players still don't catch on then I think they are trying not to catch on.I would guess that they spread the word to cause unrest especially if one of them is related to or friends with a noble. The person telling the tale will do so in a way to make the PC's look bad, most likely lying in the process.
+1 to what wraithstrike wrote - exactly how I would handle it.
When there's a kingdom consisting of thousands by this point... how exactly do the 40 or so citizens of Varnhold left really cause that much unrest?
It's not really those 40 that are causing the unrest. If it becomes public knowledge that the rulers of your kingdom sneak into your house and steal your valuables when you're not there, even people who haven't been stolen from (yet) might get a little upset by that.
So... one thing I never did get, and I don't see as being asked before: How are the PCs supposed to tell what 'originally' belongs to Varnhold, and what is for them to loot?
I guess I'm just not sure of the best way to handle this, especially since they gain unrest for keeping the treasure, and get Loyalty for not. When there's a kingdom consisting of thousands by this point... how exactly do the 40 or so citizens of Varnhold left really cause that much unrest?
I think it's because those 40 or so citizens will be talking to other subjects of the PCs. And when word starts to spread that your liege lords will be plundering your house as soon as you're gone, people get a little unhappy.
The same way, exactly, that four white cops beating up one black suspect causes unrest in a city of millions - the fear and belief of the rest of the citizens that "I could be next!"
Not sure about the tomb, haven't played it. (My PCs are just finishing up Rivers Run Red).
For a Horsewoman of the Apocalypse (clever, and make sure Vordakai forges her horseshoes of the zephyr or something), I'd probably go anti-paladin to reflect her now-twisted nature. If it were just "living centaur now serving me" I'd go with ranger levels, but Vordakai is very very evil. Or you could add something nasty and unexpected to reflect ancient centaur lore.
As far as the dread zombie creation thing goes, I'd assume that Vordakai can create at least one, and maybe three, with each casting of animate dead. So how many spells does he have available? (I'd assume that he only uses 1 slot a day for animate dead since perhaps he wants to make sure he's ready to fight if enemies show up.)
I second what tonyz wrote - give Xamanthe anti-paladin levels (man, do I like the idea of a centaur of the Apocalypse!) and dedicate one or two spell-slots per day to animate dead. Can't Vordakai build a wand/staff/rod of animate dead - if that helps, I am not sure about the mechanics and his feats here.
I don't know your group's style of play, but two to three sessions seem about right to me.
Also, what horseman should she represent? The 4 Horseman were Death, Pestilence, War, and Famine?My thoughts for each would be....
Death = attacks with Javelins of Slaying (like arrows of slaying but javelins)
Pestilence=hoof attacks causes random diseases
War=not sure about this one....
Famine=fatigued/exhausted status (fort save resist) from hoof attacksAny ideas? I have two weeks to prep this.
For 'War', I'd just make them bigger and/or stronger, better armed and armoured than the others.
Considering her background, I'd go for "war".
Question is: how much influence has V on bringing her back and how much is her "reincarnation" influenced by her background?
Concerning V, both "war" and "death" fit best, IMO.
The Mudmen Issue
As mentioned numerous times before in this post, people have been grumbling over the relatively low power of the mudmen in Area Q. Bestiary 2 is out, and gives us the Mud Elemental (what Planescape would have called an ooze paraelemental, for those keeping score), available in several disgusting, viscous sizes to be tailored to your party size and level.
Thanks for telling, Daviot.
Now I can replace my earth elementals!
Ruyan.
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My questions for you
1. With 5 solid players how long does Vordakai's lair take to get through? I was guessing maybe two 5 hour sessions. What...
My group went in the door to the second floor and we've spent two sessions getting to Vordakai, though we only play for ~4 hours. I did have most of the maps pre-drawn which saved a bundle of time. I think we're planing to go check on the first floor (what parts aren't flooded) next.
As for the centaur, I'd giver her ~5 anitpaladin levels and let her fight with the lich. Vordakai met a sad end in my game when he was grappled in a Silence area and the fighter crit a couple times. A short and unhappy end to an ancient evil.
Though I was impressed with my party's go-get'm attitude. I think perhaps they were regretting leaving Tig with the lizardfolk for 18 months. Poor kid.
My group went straight to the centaurs after Varnhold and are now on their way to Vordakai's Tomb. Since they practically race there, they are only 7th level, maybe 8th if I let them level mid-session and give them some sort of "random" encounter. We have 5 players, one iInquisitor with a (then)3rd-level fighter cohort, a sorcerer (earth) with a (then)3rd-level sorcerer (fey) cohort, one Ranger and one oracle (of lore, very ineffective in combat). Am I in for a TPK? We play tomorrow and I am not sure, if I want to let them go or somehow metagame them into not entering for now.
My group went straight to the centaurs after Varnhold and are now on their way to Vordakai's Tomb. Since they practically race there, they are only 7th level, maybe 8th if I let them level mid-session and give them some sort of "random" encounter. We have 5 players, one iInquisitor with a (then)3rd-level fighter cohort, a sorcerer (earth) with a (then)3rd-level sorcerer (fey) cohort, one Ranger and one oracle (of lore, very ineffective in combat). Am I in for a TPK? We play tomorrow and I am not sure, if I want to let them go or somehow metagame them into not entering for now.
Running away is always an option. :)
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My group went straight to the centaurs after Varnhold and are now on their way to Vordakai's Tomb. Since they practically race there, they are only 7th level, maybe 8th if I let them level mid-session and give them some sort of "random" encounter. We have 5 players, one iInquisitor with a (then)3rd-level fighter cohort, a sorcerer (earth) with a (then)3rd-level sorcerer (fey) cohort, one Ranger and one oracle (of lore, very ineffective in combat). Am I in for a TPK? We play tomorrow and I am not sure, if I want to let them go or somehow metagame them into not entering for now.
My thoughts in spoiler:
My thoughts in spoiler:
Spoiler:
Yes, I guess as long they are on the first level, I'll give them the chance to run. The trap(s) may really be a problem, because they have noone to deal with those. If I remember correctly, they don't even have that high a perception, so they will probably not find the other entrance.
If they should reach second level and decide to go on, I really don't think, that I can justify giving them the chance to rest in the tomb.
Well, I guess, I'll see tomorrow. They should have a few Hero Points, so there should be a way out of the direst situations...
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Yes, I guess as long they are on the first level, I'll give them the chance to run. The trap(s) may really be a problem, because they have noone to deal with those. If I remember correctly, they don't even have that high a perception, so they will probably not find the other entrance.If they should reach second level and decide to go on, I really don't think, that I can justify giving them the chance to rest in the tomb.
Why no resting? The Soul Eaters, Picodaemon, and cycolps zombies don't seem like the kind of opponents that are able to/ willing to move around. And the wizard would rather fight the group in his own room where he's sure of a tactical advantage.
I leveled up my group after their first session in the tomb. To eight. They beat down Vordaki like a little girl. Silence him, grapple him, and split up the loot. Its sad how not-threatening a single monster is - even at CR+4.
Yes, I guess as long they are on the first level, I'll give them the chance to run. The trap(s) may really be a problem, because they have noone to deal with those. If I remember correctly, they don't even have that high a perception, so they will probably not find the other entrance.If they should reach second level and decide to go on, I really don't think, that I can justify giving them the chance to rest in the tomb.
Why no resting? The Soul Eaters, Picodaemon, and cycolps zombies don't seem like the kind of opponents that are able to/ willing to move around. And the wizard would rather fight the group in his own room where he's sure of a tactical advantage.
I leveled up my group after their first session in the tomb. To eight. They beat down Vordaki like a little girl. Silence him, grapple him, and split up the loot. Its sad how not-threatening a single monster is - even at CR+4.
His spell selection sucks. I changed it up to make him more of a threat. From the way I understood the map the players had an obstructed path to him. I gave him wall of force, and wall of stone. I then buffed and summoned, dropping the wall at my leisure. When I took a lot of damage I DD'd away. I healed myself, cast invisibility, and haste, and walked back into the room. I cast grease under the paladin's feat. Luckily nobody failed their saves because being blinded, dominated or paralyzed would have made them very bad for the party. In the end they prevailed, but it was no cakewalk.
So, first session is done. I had them level up once (now 8th) on a credit before they entered and by attacking them with the Wyverns while they were trying to enter in the night they arrived with maybe 40% of their resources drained convinced them to take a nap before.
First level was not much of a problem. They are now on second and have dealt with the Soul Eaters. They drained some WIS, but nothing too dangerous as they have plenty lesser restorations via the oracle. They have up till now ignored the daemon, as they have not fully figured out the trap there yet but are wary of it.
With about 20-30% ressources depleted I guess they can make it, but they will use up a few Hero Points in the process.
Apologies if this is a little off topic (regarding the final encounter in VV). My group of 4 PCs have just begun VV, and we've all enjoyed the AP very much so far. My question is in regards to the PCs kingdom at this point in the campaign.
Their kingdom's stats are as follows:
Age: 3 years, 4 months
Size: 47 hexes
Cities: 6 (capital city has 2 districts)
Monthly Magic Item Generation: 6 medium, 2 major
Average Monthly BP Generation: 90 BPMy group and I were wondering how their kingdom stacked up with the kingdoms from other games. The only major house rule I've implemented so far is placing a stricter limitation on withdrawing funds from the kingdom's treasury because the PCs demonstrated to me that they could skim serious GP "off the top" without incurring any real unrest problems. Specifically, I'm wondering if their kingdom is unusually successful or is it as to be expected?
It should also be noted that they currently succeed on all Command checks on anything over a '1.'
Thank you.
This sounds pretty close to the norm.
My group's kingdom at 30 months:
Size: 51 hexes
Average Monthly BP Income @ Month 30: 95 BP
As with your group, the only thing keeping things interesting besides the flow of time through the kingdom itself is the "nat 1 = automatic failure" part of the command checks.
(Higher ability score bonuses from the ruling body allow more rapid expansion.)
It should be noted that my group just started the Varnhold Vanishing...
OK... We are now almost finished with VV and our kingdom encompasses a measly 16 hexes and produces maybe 5-10BP on a good day... The players were very reluctant with expansion in the beginning as they didn't see the benefit of it since it increased the control DC. I have now housruled only every other hex increasing the DC and some other minor tweaks but they still don't expanse too much. They are beginning now as I told them that their land will never support an army like that but we are still going very slowly.
Oh, btw. the kingdom is about one and a half years old now. Are we really slow or am I right in assuming that development will take off now?
OK... We are now almost finished with VV and our kingdom encompasses a measly 16 hexes and produces maybe 5-10BP on a good day... The players were very reluctant with expansion in the beginning as they didn't see the benefit of it since it increased the control DC. I have now housruled only every other hex increasing the DC and some other minor tweaks but they still don't expanse too much. They are beginning now as I told them that their land will never support an army like that but we are still going very slowly.
Oh, btw. the kingdom is about one and a half years old now. Are we really slow or am I right in assuming that development will take off now?
I suggest having them build their city/cities up a ways. This will allow for an increase in the Control DC without the fear that such an increase will break them. My players were paranoid about the high DC and started slowly, but now there's little chance of them failing rolls so the kingdom's coming along much faster.
I'd say you have one more book before things get REALLY bad. A small kingdom won't be able to strum up the armies necessary. To the left, ending VV should help them along...
I am slightly concerned about my players' kingdom. They've played 24 months of kingdom building terms and are extremely conservative with expanding. I give the bonuses for forest squares. However, I also houseruled-out magic item retailing (instead I made some buildings cheaper and others more powerful in different ways to make up for that)
The Kingdom:
2 Cities
9 Hexes
And they just lost an entire city block (2 houses, blacksmith, tavern) to the owlbear.
Is this particularly a problem? And if so, what would you suggest to fix this?
Due to odd improbability, every event rolled (every 2nd month) has been negative. Thus, the Duke conservatively keeps at least 15 BP saved at all times.
They have a town hall but no castle. After the owlbear hit, now they believe they need to build city walls and I think they are giving up on annexing hexes.
5 Kingdom roles were vacant HOWEVER; I added extra kingdom roles to the game, so this shouldn't have hurt them in any fashion. Instead of the usual 12 roles, my kingdom has 16 possible roles--so they were only down 1 of the maximum possible in a usual game. (After the owlbear attack and the death of their Marshall in the attack [Kesten :(], they started appointing people like mad and now all but 3 roles are filled).
Also note: Players run neutral edicts-Rationale was that the benefits were not outweighed by the negatives.
They are a LG kingdom that receives bonuses to economy and stability as a result of that choice. (If I recall correctly).
I have 5 players who run 8 characters (though they usually only run 6 characters per adventure).
--
I am only concerned about this because it seems so out-of-line with how others' kingdoms are turning out. I can adjust on the fly to a smaller kingdom, but I would like to be aware of possible pitfalls caused by this tiny kingdom so that I can adjust in an appropriate fashion.
Thank you!
Also note: Players run neutral edicts-Rationale was that the benefits were not outweighed by the negatives.
They are a LG kingdom that receives bonuses to economy and stability as a result of that choice. (If I recall correctly).
The suggested kingdom sizes are indicative of where they really need to be in order to be ready for what lies ahead.
Don't introduce annexation and army / mass combat rules until the appropriate chapter (4 in this case as I recall for the latter, although for the life of me I couldn't find the annexation rules in chapter 2 anywhere).
Basically, they won't have been around long enough to have attracted a "martial age" population that they can conscript into military units until their kingdom is at (x) size range.
So, beginning of Chapter 3, they should be 51 - 60 total hexes in size, as indicated. Don't start Chapter 4 until they're at the proper size (expanding eastwards past that 51st hex as a general rule of thumb).
They'll need TONS of BP in the treasury to afford army stuff, so the magic item stuff is more of a way to abstract their overall economic power. Take it or modify it accordingly.
Instead of the usual 12 roles, my kingdom has 16 possible roles--
What have you added? How do they work?
Turin, thank you for the response.
Does anyone have suggestions for perhaps why my players' kingdom is undersized or what to do to correct things? Or mechanically, will the kingdom start growing exponentially after
I figure I'll run 1 or 2 more years before starting varnhold.
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Gang- There was a good thread somewhere on these boards about "kingdom roles" I don't have the link, but here's what I have:
High Druid - Economy (CON or WIS) Manages the agriculture, game, and interfaces with the fey and sentient dryads and naiads as a representative.
Counselor/Magistrate - Economy or Stability (CHA or INT) Provides legal advice and presides over legal issues.
Liasion - Economy (CHA or INT) Interacts with craftspeople and manages market-based foreign relations and trade routes. Each city's GP limit also receives a bonus if the Liasion position is filled.
Royal Chronicler - Loyalty (CHA, INT, WIS) The Royal Chronicler or archivist conducts propoganda for the empire, developing flags, national animals, and working with the Councilor to brainstorm appropriate festivals.
She also conducts research into old things and historical background of both the leaders and the land, to ground it in a strong history and to provide it with a sense of pride.
Turin, thank you for the response.
Does anyone have suggestions for perhaps why my players' kingdom is undersized or what to do to correct things? Or mechanically, will the kingdom start growing exponentially after
I figure I'll run 1 or 2 more years before starting varnhold.
The Kingmaker campaign time frame is far more fluid than the rest of the APs so far. You really only need to worry about the recommended size parameter at the beginning of each chapter, even if they're at the lower end of the size range when you start the chapter. Most chapters have a good chunk of time that will need to pass within their chain of events. If you've slowed down the turn (months to seasons, for example), then game time marches on its pace. A fun part will be the characters aging during the course of the AP for the slower "paced" campaigns.
Light Dragon, I really like your ideas for additional kingdom leadership roles. I'm going to consider incorporating these into my PC's kingdom.
Ah, you are welcome. I hope that the positions add value to your game!
Hm. Your comments inspire me; perhaps everything will start moving faster after the group hits 10 hexes.
A fun part will be the characters aging during the course of the AP for the slower "paced" campaigns.
That's what I'm looking forward to doing. The NPCs at least are settling down.
Svetlana and Oleg already had a child, who is now about 2 years old, who is named after the first PC who died defending Oleg's Trading Post (Happs' arrow to the neck). The party is enjoying seeing their relationship develop. (Rolled a scandal event and deemed that its result was that Oleg was beating their child when it wouldn't be quiet one night, so Svetlana and he had a large falling out, reiterated in public during the midst an obscene diplomatic theatrical performance put on by an envoy from Pitax; but they eventually made up).
The party has learned to fear whenever Pitax culture skirts the periphery of their Barony. [music selections from Gunther, Right Said Fred, Disco Music like Rock Lobster, the Time Warp, etc. (modern pitax music); and traditional pitax music "Bird Bath", "The Bird's the Word", "My Bucket's Got A Hole in It", "The Little Blue Man", "Farmer John", etc.]
It's time for a pernickety question! Brace yourselves!
On page 25 of Varnhold Vanishing the PCs can find a book in Maestro Ervil Pendrod's room at the Inn. A centuries-old geography book by Carmyn e'Brothasa, chronicler of Taldor's Third Army of Exploration.
However, [pernickety alert] according to the official timeline in the Inner Sea World Guide, the Third Army of Exploration secured the northern shores of the Inner Sea, including founding Corentyn in Cheliax. It's not until the Fifth Army of Exploration that Taldor "expands throughout the River Kingdoms and brushes against the wilds of Iobaria".
:D
Since a chronicler usually records current events as they happen or events that have recently happened, and there were almost 500 years between the Third and Fifth Armies of Exploration, what do we think this means?
The Third Army of Exploration did venture beyond the River Kingdoms but not as significantly as the Fifth Army?
The book is a forgery?
Carmyn e'Brothasa is very long-lived and mentions elements of the Fifth Army of Exploration in expansion of the deeds of the Third Army?
Carmyn e'Brothasa is not your usual sort of chronicler.
What do y'all think?
:D
My group is still doing Rivers Run Red, but I'm reading the next adventure right now, and like others in this thread, my group only has 12 hexes and it's going slow for kingdom building. They're focusing on the capital city (the first grid is almost complete) but are trying to keep the consumption down to zero. There is absolutely no way they're going to have 30-50 hexes by the time Varnhold comes up. How are people having these huge kingdoms and still making all the Stability and Economy checks? Other than farms, how do you reduce consumption? I feel like they're doing something wrong, and I told them they can pace themselves however they want, but now we apparently won't be able to progress much in the next adventure without a bigger kingdom. What are the consequences of building the kingdom slower?
My group is still doing Rivers Run Red, but I'm reading the next adventure right now, and like others in this thread, my group only has 12 hexes and it's going slow for kingdom building. They're focusing on the capital city (the first grid is almost complete) but are trying to keep the consumption down to zero. There is absolutely no way they're going to have 30-50 hexes by the time Varnhold comes up. How are people having these huge kingdoms and still making all the Stability and Economy checks? Other than farms, how do you reduce consumption? I feel like they're doing something wrong, and I told them they can pace themselves however they want, but now we apparently won't be able to progress much in the next adventure without a bigger kingdom. What are the consequences of building the kingdom slower?
I wouldn't sweat it for book 3. My group only has 23 hexes and we're into book 3 ourselves. Book 4, on the other hand...
As for the kingdom, give it time. I was worried myself at the beginning, but they slowly expanded out. Now they have four cities (including Tatzlford), and while their Loyalty and Stability aren't quite high, their Econ is high enough.
If you're really worried, let them find some "fertile" farmland that grants -3 consumption for farms, instead of -2.
But you honestly, at least in my opinion, don't need to have them at the 50 or so hexes mentioned in the book. You *will* need about that for BfB, but that's a ways to go, and there's a good deal of exploring to do in the Varnhold area...:)
Hope that helps...
That makes me feel better. I'd much rather let them go at their own pace... The nice thing is that they're getting more BP as time goes on. Right now they get 9-10 per month. I get antsy when I see people getting 10 times that per month at roughly the same point. City building will be much easier when they get a ton of BP per month. Right now they're constantly having "quick" months where they're saving up for a certain building for the capitol. I think they want to build another city on the island south of the Stag Lord's Fort (where the capitol is now).
In my game, I explicitly gated XP levels against Kingdom size.
For example, the party could not reach level 6 until their Kingdom had at least 11 hexes, regardless of how many monsters they killed in the meantime.
It was heavy-handed, yes, but I justified it on the grounds that this is a game about KingMaking, not MonsterKilling, and that the game rewards what the game is about. The PCs surprisingly bought and accepted the logic without complaint.
The time between each of the books is left up to the DM. In my campaign, I let three years go by before Varnhold mysteriously disappeared over the winter (I ruled that the Varnhold pass being closed during the winter months). This naturally prompted them into book 3 and I could have done it a year earlier or a year later depending on how I felt they were doing.
As it turns out, we just finished VV and the duchy now contains 61 hexes. Since I'm hoping to start WotRK once they create a kingdom at 80 hexes, I plan to only leave a couple months (rather than a couple years) before the attack on Tatzlford takes place.
Of course, my PCs have plans of their own and I expect a war to break out against the Nomen Centaur as well. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
My PCs are about a level behind (five of them, all at 9th level with some almost at 10th) but they're more than able to meet the challenges as written and I'm not keen on making changes if I can avoid it.
OK... We are now almost finished with VV and our kingdom encompasses a measly 16 hexes and produces maybe 5-10BP on a good day... The players were very reluctant with expansion in the beginning as they didn't see the benefit of it since it increased the control DC. I have now housruled only every other hex increasing the DC and some other minor tweaks but they still don't expanse too much. They are beginning now as I told them that their land will never support an army like that but we are still going very slowly.
Oh, btw. the kingdom is about one and a half years old now. Are we really slow or am I right in assuming that development will take off now?
My players were reluctant to expand as well. 2 years in they had two cities and about 20 hexes. Then they got a caster tower and started producing magic item which got them more BP and more buildings creating magic items. Now they have so many, like 11 minor, 4 medium, and 2 major. With the rule that you can sell 1 magic item per district or city they started wanting to expand to create a 3rd city but need to get the hexes to do so. So now expansion is on their mind and that's what they want to do next session.
What really got thing rolling though was an event. They got the Visiting Celebrity event where you roll 2D6 and reroll 6 and add to that result. They were lucky, rolled two 6 off the start and end up pulling in enough BP to buy a Black Market. That's where the first Major Item showed up. Over a year they got the Magic shop next. So they plan to add two districts but that's ways off yet and another city. Now they are 3 1/2 years in.
If you want to spur growth, give them a sudden influx of BP. That seemed to do it for my group.
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Wanted to stop by and give a hearty thanks to Greg, or whomever it was who came up with the Soul Eater.
This creature has now scared and harassed my players twice, and it's been a joy. Oh, sure, a quick-thinking Inquisitor has Magic Circled a protection against the creature's target and others, but they've come to scramble at the sight of the thing.
Yesterday, while camping near the Valley, the Paladin was on watch at night. He completely missed seeing the creature, who went straight for the poor Duchess--the Eater's target. After the Inq protected the Duchess, it went after the Paladin. One claw-crit later and the Paly was dropped to zero Wis. Were it not for that dang protection circle, I'd have had his soul!
They're on the threshold of The Tower, and I'm looking forward to what awaits them inside...
So, thanks for this one! It's been a pleasure to torment my players with this dreadful creature.
Much obliged to ya! ;)
He is able to craft the jars without access to the spell (by taking +5 to the DC, just like PCs can when crafting magical items). After he had enough of them, he simply teleported to Varnhold (probably just outside of town) using the portable hole to carry the vast collection of jars. He then used the Occulus of Abaddon's haunting beckon ability to bring everyone to him and subsequently trapped them in the jars he had prepared and teleported back.
Now that my PC's have let the occulus fall into the hands of Imeckus Stroon, I can't wait until he can use that ability against them. I'm thinking he'd probably use it to procure one of their armies... <evil grin>
i think vordakai has had those jars for like 10 thousand years. also before he atrophied he was a twentieth level wizard, certainly capable of casting trap the soul.
given how paranoid my players are, I'm not sure how effective the soul eating monster is going to be...and since at least TWO of them are neutral evil spell casters, there's a good chance that if they survive the lich battle one of them will end up with that evil eyeball.
Would a Sending Spell
