Rivers Run Red (GM Reference)


Kingmaker

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Hopefully others can use this thread to clarify questions arising in this adventure. If you happen to see another thread, please link post a link in this one to try and keep things tied together.

Chapter 1: Stolen Land
Chapter 2: Rivers Run Red
Chapter 3: The Varnhold Vanishing
Chapter 4: Blood for Blood
Chapter 5: War of the River Kings
Chapter 6: Sound of a Thousand Screams


Got my "In the next week or so email"! Can't wait for this one!

You know what to do!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
tdewitt274 wrote:

Got my "In the next week or so email"! Can't wait for this one!

You know what to do!

I'd have my PDF copy right now, had the credit card I use not been compromised by identity theft. Thankfully, we caught it in time, so we won't be paying for someone in Florida's new $800 computer, but it still put a wrench in the gears. :P

Slapped another credit card on for this purchase until the new card comes in. Hoping the transaction goes through today so I can have a shiny new PDF to read when I get back from the lady-friend's.

Town-building HO! :D

Grand Lodge

I so can't wait for this AP!! My group is really enjoyed Kingmaker. They can't wait for the rest of the path.

Liberty's Edge

N'wah wrote:
tdewitt274 wrote:

Got my "In the next week or so email"! Can't wait for this one!

You know what to do!

I'd have my PDF copy right now, had the credit card I use not been compromised by identity theft. Thankfully, we caught it in time, so we won't be paying for someone in Florida's new $800 computer, but it still put a wrench in the gears. :P

Slapped another credit card on for this purchase until the new card comes in. Hoping the transaction goes through today so I can have a shiny new PDF to read when I get back from the lady-friend's.

Town-building HO! :D

ID theft, Kingmaker, and ladyfriend. Well, two outta three ain't bad, right? Sorry to hear about your troubles. I'm sure it will be worth the wait, though. I am jonesing like crazy for the upcoming mechanics to be released.


Just received the PDF. Thank you.

One sadly (minor) negative comment thus far: Does Hex T say "Wangering Giant" ? Or did I misread that. p 30 indicates it should be "Wandering Giant."

Eagerly reading further.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Light Dragon wrote:

Just received the PDF. Thank you.

One sadly (minor) negative comment thus far: Does Hex T say "Wangering Giant" ? Or did I misread that. p 30 indicates it should be "Wandering Giant."

Eagerly reading further.

Wandering Giant is the correct spelling.


Light Dragon wrote:

Just received the PDF. Thank you.

One sadly (minor) negative comment thus far: Does Hex T say "Wangering Giant" ? Or did I misread that. p 30 indicates it should be "Wandering Giant."

Eagerly reading further.

despite volcanoes, its reached this side of the pond too


Thanks for the quick response James and sorry to be the one to point that out, but it seemed at least slightly useful to point out in the interests of maybe getting later-sent out PDFs fixed.

I understand that those typos creep in everywhere- even the Wall Street Journal- despite multiple eyes on paper.

The Kingdom-building rules look intriguing.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Downloading my copy right now. Can't wait to pit my PCs against the Wangering Giant. :D

"You see a giant. He's... wangering."
"Does that mean that we get a surprise round, since he's, um... distracted?"
"Only if you show up dressed as his mom."

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Light Dragon wrote:

Thanks for the quick response James and sorry to be the one to point that out, but it seemed at least slightly useful to point out in the interests of maybe getting later-sent out PDFs fixed.

We generally don't have time to go in and fix typos in Pathfinder APs, so that one's gonna stay. It's a pretty minor and non-game-breaking typo, at least.


Is it normal some people have already got their PDF for this and not me? I haven't even got Stolen Land paper still!! :(
I SO can't wait...


I think Paizo provides access to the PDF after they mail the physical unit and officially bill you for your purchase. I will not be receiving a physical copy for 4-7 business days, for example.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Light Dragon wrote:
I think Paizo provides access to the PDF after they mail the physical unit and officially bill you for your purchase. I will not be receiving a physical copy for 4-7 business days, for example.

Yup; I provide mad coin for fast delivery (2nd-day ground is my standard; t'were I a millionaire, I'd pay for same-day). If you're out of the country, that will affect delivery; if you're a recent subscriber, or if you order them piecemeal, that will also affect delivery; and there's also a series of days over which they ship the copies, based on who became a subscriber when, I believe.

Paradoxweaver, if you ordered your copy a while ago (more than two weeks) I'd contact the Customer Service folks and find out what's up. They're generally friendly folk, even if they do listen to non-stop rave music while on duty. :P

Shoot off an email to customer.service@paizo.com or post a message on the Customer Service messageboard. Make sure to have your order number handy; that will help immensely.

Unrelated note:

Of Cities and Kings, Pathfinder #32: wrote:
A shopfront for a tradesman, such as a baker, butcher, candlemaker...

What town isn't complete without a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker? I mean, really.

Of equal concern is where that Old King Cole (he's a merry old soul; what a merry old soul is he!) is gonna go when he calls for his pipe, calls for his bowl, and calls for his fiddlers three.

Dark Archive

Oh, man... what sweet torture.

Resubscribed to "Pathfinder Adventure Path" a week and a day ago, and got my print copy of #31 just this afternoon, and the PDF for #32 a moment ago.

So, so tired from a hectic week at work and home, and planned activities with friends tomorrow morning and family in the evening.

Torture....


Page 55...

Control DC: A kingdom’s Control DC is 20 + its size; this
value is the DC you’ll be rolling against most often with
your kingdom’s Stability, Economy, and Loyalty checks.

Page 61...
Step 1—Determine Kingdom Stability: Make a
Stability check against your Command DC to determine
your kingdom’s level of security for the month.

Is the Command value actually the Control value, or are these different things?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have a few question concerning "The Founding of Tatzlford" on page 13.

1. Does the rule apply that all kingdom hexes have to be adjacent to at least one other kingdom hex?

2. When the players tell the Rezbins to found their village in the Temple of the Elk hex instead, will this conflict with the events in "Blood for Blood"?

The Exchange

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Started reading "Blood For Blood" and so far it looks GREAT! I believe the Wangering Giant is the correct term as the giant is under the influence of MOONSHINE! loved that can't wait to DM him.
I also noticed that Melianse the Nixie has 9 ranks in Craft...basketweaving, since she is aquatic I assume she is skilled in .....UNDERWATER BASKET WEAVING! ROFLMAO!!!!

You guys ROCK....that is the best laugh I have had all day, keep up the outstanding work!

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

stuart haffenden wrote:

Page 55...

Control DC: A kingdom’s Control DC is 20 + its size; this
value is the DC you’ll be rolling against most often with
your kingdom’s Stability, Economy, and Loyalty checks.

Page 61...
Step 1—Determine Kingdom Stability: Make a
Stability check against your Command DC to determine
your kingdom’s level of security for the month.

Is the Command value actually the Control value, or are these different things?

They are the same things. Minor nomenclatural mishap.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Zen79 wrote:

I have a few question concerning "The Founding of Tatzlford" on page 13.

1. Does the rule apply that all kingdom hexes have to be adjacent to at least one other kingdom hex?

Yes, all hexes you add must be adjacent to at least one other hex - adjacent meaning side to side contact, not point to point.

Zen79 wrote:

2. When the players tell the Rezbins to found their village in the Temple of the Elk hex instead, will this conflict with the events in "Blood for Blood"?

If the PCs haven't already claimed the proto-Tatzlford hex (and it's likely they haven't, since forest hexes aren't much use), just have the Rezbins begin clearing and establishing the town themselves. At some later time, the PCs may wish to annex the town (and get the bonus feature of absorbing a town that is already formed with whatever buildings and stuff you as the DM or later adventure authors might choose to add to it), but in the meantime it can just grow up as a friendly independent town outside of their borders.

You could have Jhod Kavken lead a movement to establish a town at the Temple of the Elk instead.


ugh, my subscription is still in "pending" limbo. How have some people gotten the green light to download the .pdf already?

The Exchange

Yep, got mine last night!


Oh, and by the way, so far this adventure path is just great!
I can't wait to DM it sometime (the 2 groups I play with are both in other campaigns, but maybe after that...)

Dark Archive

The PDF is available when you get an email notifying you that your issue has shipped and you have been billed. In turn, your issue is shipped at the same time as others who have similar orders. Read something on this in another thread just the other day, but couldn't track down a link, but seems that if you add things to your sidecart, those orders take a little longer to fulfill than a standard order since they involve more work from the warehouse/shipping team.

Something along those lines.


Well that doesn't make any sense. I haven't gotten my e-mail yet, but conversely I only subscribe to the AP and don't have anything else in my side-cart. Whats the deal with that?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

stuart haffenden wrote:

Page 55...

Control DC: A kingdom’s Control DC is 20 + its size; this
value is the DC you’ll be rolling against most often with
your kingdom’s Stability, Economy, and Loyalty checks.

Page 61...
Step 1—Determine Kingdom Stability: Make a
Stability check against your Command DC to determine
your kingdom’s level of security for the month.

Is the Command value actually the Control value, or are these different things?

Command DC and Control DC are the same thing.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Zen79 wrote:
1. Does the rule apply that all kingdom hexes have to be adjacent to at least one other kingdom hex?

Yes. If the PCs don't have an adjacent hex to Tatzlford, they can't add it to their kingdom. In this case, the town just "waits" for them to build their kingdom out that far and then it works fine.

Zen79 wrote:

2. When the players tell the Rezbins to found their village in the Temple of the Elk hex instead, will this conflict with the events in "Blood for Blood"?

Not at all. The only thing that'll be different is that the map of Tatzlford that appears in Pathfinder #34 won't be as accurate for you and you'll need to make a few changes. "Tatzleford" can go ANYWHERE. The main purpose is so that we at Paizo had an actual name for a town that we could use for some events in Pathfnider #34. You can, in fact, just assume Pathfinder #34's events occur in ANY of the cities your PCs build. You'll just need to change the name, and adjust the map as necessary.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Earwig wrote:
Well that doesn't make any sense. I haven't gotten my e-mail yet, but conversely I only subscribe to the AP and don't have anything else in my side-cart. Whats the deal with that?

We have THOUSANDS of subscribers to the Adventure Path, and as a result it takes several days for us to ship them out. And since the PDF doesn't show up in your downloads until the day we ship the physical copy to you, the exact day a PDF shows up can vary over several days, especially if the shipping process happens before and after a weekend.\

Your PDF should show up soon. If it doesn't, just drop Customer Service a line and they'll help you out!

Grand Lodge

I had a quick question about the kingdom-building. I'm assuming that the players start out by deciding on their starting hex, and then must expand out from that hex at the usual speed and BP costs? Basically, they don't get any 'free' hexes added on, even if they've explored and subdued them, right?

I know it's kind of a stupid question, my brain is being odd.


For the buildings that are required to be "Adjacent" to a house, what counts as Adjacent? Same city block but diagonal? Across streets? Diagonal across streets? Or only the two side to side squares within the same city block?

Such as here:
.

o o| |o o
A B| |C o
---------
D X| |E o
F G| |H o

Which of A-H are adjacent to X?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ninjaiguana wrote:

I had a quick question about the kingdom-building. I'm assuming that the players start out by deciding on their starting hex, and then must expand out from that hex at the usual speed and BP costs? Basically, they don't get any 'free' hexes added on, even if they've explored and subdued them, right?

I know it's kind of a stupid question, my brain is being odd.

Correct. No free hexes. First you have to spend the time to explore the hex, and then you have to claim the hex; two steps.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Majuba wrote:

For the buildings that are required to be "Adjacent" to a house, what counts as Adjacent? Same city block but diagonal? Across streets? Diagonal across streets? Or only the two side to side squares within the same city block?

Such as here:
.

o o| |o o
A B| |C o
---------
D X| |E o
F G| |H o

Which of A-H are adjacent to X?

Anything counts as adjacent; left, right, above, below, diagonal, or even across streets.

But you can't "double duty" a house. Once it's used as a prerequisite for another building, it can't serve as a prerequisite for a second building.


Quote:

After it is generated, a magic item remains on the market

until it is purchased. Alternatively, once per Income phase,
a kingdom can make Economy checks to try to sell items;
once the item is sold, its slot remains empty until the next
Upkeep phase.

The "Once" implies that you can only sell one item but the "S's" imply you can make one attempt per item.

I'm assuming it's once per item, is that correct?

EDIT:
page 64.

Quote:

You can make one Economy check per

city district during each Income phase.

It would appear it is one attempt per district.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

You can attempt to sell a magic item once per Income phase per district.

So if you only have one city, you can only try to sell one item per Income phase. But if you have multiple cities (or a city of multiple districts) you can try to sell a magic item from EACH district.

Grand Lodge

Man!! All of you guys that have gotten your pdfs already are so lucky!!
Can't wait -- I feel like a little kid lol!

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

What are the effects of roads on travel time? I don't see anything explicitly stating that one way or another. It seems all roads are good for are being prerequisites to build farms. (and dividing the total by 4 and 8 to get Economy & Stability respectively)

While I'm on the travel-time subject: rivers? Do they have count as roads for any effect? (There's quite a lot of them.) I know there's some waterfalls to watch out for, but for the calmer ones?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

And sorry to be a typo hound: but the header for "K3" should be "K3 & K4" and the header for "K4" should be "K5". Not a huge deal, but threw me off at first.

(K = Lonely Barrow)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Erik Freund wrote:

What are the effects of roads on travel time? I don't see anything explicitly stating that one way or another. It seems all roads are good for are being prerequisites to build farms. (and dividing the total by 4 and 8 to get Economy & Stability respectively)

While I'm on the travel-time subject: rivers? Do they have count as roads for any effect? (There's quite a lot of them.) I know there's some waterfalls to watch out for, but for the calmer ones?

The effects of roads and rivers on travel time are covered in the Pathfinder Core RPG, in Chapter 7. (These factors weren't really talked about in the exploration phase since you can't build roads until a hex is claimed, and you can't claim a hex until it's explored.) By building roads, you're making it easier to move around in your kingdom, which is why you gain those bonuses to Economy and Stability.

Rivers do not count as roads for farms, and they actually can cause more problems than they solve for travel, since you can't cross them easily at most locations. Again, rules for river travel itself are found in Chapter 7 of the Pathfinder RPG.


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Page 14: Minor Events--states that there are three minor events, which are the first three events which occur instead of rolling. However, only two are listed--the Founding of Tatzlford, and Troll Sightings.

What happened to the third event? Also, if the Troll Sightings event happens in the second or third month of development, doesn't that run counter to the "give the players a year to start their kingdom" as well as the suggested 5th level for the troll adventure?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vil-hatarn wrote:

Page 14: Minor Events--states that there are three minor events, which are the first three events which occur instead of rolling. However, only two are listed--the Founding of Tatzlford, and Troll Sightings.

What happened to the third event? Also, if the Troll Sightings event happens in the second or third month of development, doesn't that run counter to the "give the players a year to start their kingdom" as well as the suggested 5th level for the troll adventure?

The third minor event was cut for space, but then in classic last-minute adjustment mode, the mention of three events didn't get fully modified to two events. It wasn't a big event, though; merely a sighting of a giant owlbear to foreshadow the last encounter. I decided that this worked better as a surprise, in any event; the first time the PCs learn about the giant owlbear should be after it attacks the town.

As for the troll sightings, the suggestion that they begin in the second or third month of development is merely that, a suggestion. The rate at which your particular Kingmaker campaign proceeds is up to you; the troll sightings should begin well before the PCs are ready to go into the caves, though, so that the rising presence of trolls in the region is foreshadowed.


You recommend giving the PC a year to set up their newly found kingdom and start developing their first city.

So, is it after these initial 12 phase’s that you recommend starting the Events? because before that I think it's assumed that the PC concentrate on the building first, and then go back to the combination of explore/return/event mode.

Or are you suggesting that the first 3 event occur during the first few months even if the PC don’t leave the city?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

stuart haffenden wrote:

You recommend giving the PC a year to set up their newly found kingdom and start developing their first city.

So, is it after these initial 12 phase’s that you recommend starting the Events? because before that I think it's assumed that the PC concentrate on the building first, and then go back to the combination of explore/return/event mode.

Or are you suggesting that the first 3 event occur during the first few months even if the PC don’t leave the city?

Start the events when you want. They can occur when the game starts to feel like it needs something exciting to happen, or they can occur when you want to get the PCs out of kingdom-building mode. This could be after a month, a year, or even a decade depending on your preference.

You probably shouldn't run all 3 of those events back to back, though. Spread them out!

Dark Archive

From the City Building rules...
"A city’s population is equal to the number of completed blocks within its districts × 250."

"A fair amount of additional residential structures are common amid most one- and two-block structures."

So I take it that the City Grid is more of a generalized layout and not meant to be a structure-by-structure accounting of each building in the city. If that’s the case, what’s the purpose of the house adjacency requirements (rule mechanics wise)?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Chinchbug wrote:

From the City Building rules...

"A city’s population is equal to the number of completed blocks within its districts × 250."

"A fair amount of additional residential structures are common amid most one- and two-block structures."

So I take it that the City Grid is more of a generalized layout and not meant to be a structure-by-structure accounting of each building in the city. If that’s the case, what’s the purpose of the house adjacency requirements (rule mechanics wise)?

Correct. The "buildings" are meant to be representational. A single "block" in the city grid is 700 feet to a side or something like that, so there's a LOT of buildings in there. The purpose of the "house adjacency requirements" is to ensure that your players actually build houses in their cities and to make it a bit more tricky to build the structures that actually increase your nation's stats. They're also to give places for everyone that makes a building function places to live, be those people employees, guards, street sweepers, customers, or whatever.


Have to say I really get the 'Age of Empires' vibe from the city building rules..

Is there a limit on the number of districts you can have in a city?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

DM Wellard wrote:

Have to say I really get the 'Age of Empires' vibe from the city building rules..

Is there a limit on the number of districts you can have in a city?

Not really. A GM can certainly limit the number of districts a party puts in a single city if he wants, but multiple districts would be the only way you'd ever be able to model a really BIG city, after all. A city the size of Westcrown would take, IIRC, nearly 30 city grid districts.

Of course, your kingdom needs to be able to AFFORD all of those districts!

The Exchange

Hey James,

I have a question about the mines in Kingmaker. I am assuming that since they are in hills that it will take 2 months to get them up and running, is this correct? After which time they add +1 to the kingdom's economy. How much actually wealth(gold, silver, wood, ect) do such resource sites put in the ecomony? If we use the 4,000gp = 1 BP model it would be nice to know how much our mines produce a month and how long they last until played out. Did I miss this somewhere?
Thanks for your help and your awesome products!


Anyone else still waiting for their AP volume to ship?

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Earwig wrote:
Anyone else still waiting for their AP volume to ship?

Me. Mind you, I am checking like every 5 seconds. I can't but think waiting for the email to pop is like waiting for the watched goblin to stop moving and eating. Like maybe if I just do some ... you know, work ... it will suddenly appear. But then I do work for another 5 seconds and I have to check back to see if it popped yet. Nothin so far.


Marc Waschle wrote:

Hey James,

I have a question about the mines in Kingmaker. I am assuming that since they are in hills that it will take 2 months to get them up and running, is this correct? After which time they add +1 to the kingdom's economy. How much actually wealth(gold, silver, wood, ect) do such resource sites put in the ecomony? If we use the 4,000gp = 1 BP model it would be nice to know how much our mines produce a month and how long they last until played out. Did I miss this somewhere?
Thanks for your help and your awesome products!

I have to say that when I was looking at the first book and the gold mine in particular, I thought it would be a huge source of income for the PC's settlement but the rules in the second volume put all mines at +1 BP regardless of what they produce.

I think I have my Sid Meier's Civilisation head on and want a gold mine to be more valuable.

I guess when you look at the "building mechanics" as a whole there is already a lot in there. However you could easily add a table to represent the different types of mine and how they affect the income of the city. I'm sure the rules as written are plenty for some, but for others with Civ or Age of Empires experience they may be a little too simplified.

On the whole though I think Paizo are on to a winner here. This building mechanic is wonderful.

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