Ladies & Gents, I'm dealing with a group of players who are sporting high-powered characters, and looking for any loophole in the rules in an effort to trounce me. I'm interested in ideas my fellow Pathfinder GM's might have for ways to make life very difficult for my power-gaming players (who for the most part stay within the rules), in the form of clever uses/situations for spells, magic items, battle tactics, etc. In short, I'm interested in how my fellow GM's are "playing hardball" with their player's characters (within the rules, naturally) when the situation calls for it. And in my group, it calls for it big time!
Regards, KGM
Ladies & Gents, I'm dealing with a group of players who are sporting high-powered characters, and looking for any loophole in the rules in an effort to trounce me. I'm interested in ideas my fellow Pathfinder GM's might have for ways to make life very difficult for my power-gaming players (who for the most part stay within the rules), in the form of clever uses/situations for spells, magic items, battle tactics, etc. In short, I'm interested in how my fellow GM's are "playing hardball" with their player's characters (within the rules, naturally) when the situation calls for it. And in my group, it calls for it big time!
Regards, KGM
You could limit them to a 10 point buy and NPC classes in a low xp track low magic game.. but that would probably be boring.
What loopholes are they abusing. NPC's can abuse them as well. As DM you can easily up the ante, if they're level 10 and as powerful as other level 12 groups, design the encounters around level 12 characters. If everyone's having fun a high power campaign is fine.
If I had players that were openly antagonistic with me and searching for loopholes, that game would be over, and we would try starting fresh.
But, if you and your players are all comfortable with an adversarial game style like that, here are a few of my favorite tricks:
-Strictly enforce the rules on buying and selling magic items, and randomly generate all treasure.
-Time Stop -> Greater Teleport to the PCs, -> Several painful spells -> Greater Teleport away -> Time Stop ends.
-Suicidal attackers equipped with two Bags of Holding.
-If they're power-gaming, they're probably not being generous to any NPCs. Play that up with increasing resistance and hostility from everyone.
-Damage from falling objects can get truly absurd very easily, but be careful because the PCs can take advantage of this one too.
-Put every opponent in advantageous terrain. Earth elementals in the sides of cliffs, Druids in thorn-walled tunnels, Giant Squid attacking PCs on a bridge, etc.
-Make them go through an ancient ritual test of strength where they have to fight themselves. This will cause them to figure out all of their weaknesses for you.
-Put them up against lots of things like Rust Monsters that can permanently destroy equipment.
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Making high-powered characters waste spells and item charges is always amusing.
Dancing Lights(humanoid image): is one of those things that will have players lobbing fireballs first and asking questions later.
Several low-level illusions can accomplish the same effect, especially mixed with ghost sound and ventriloquism.
Your BBEG spends his 0 and 1st level spells and the party wastes all their area of effect and high damage spells on something that can't even be damaged.
Using a simple spell like obscuring mist with cloudkill behind it makes pursuit unpleasant, also.
Relatively cheap items like tanglefoot bags, caltrops, and alchemist fire can also be used to make even powerful characters miserable.
Don't go for the big takedown immediately. Instead, give them a "thousand papercuts and bathe them in lemon-juice."
From last night's Savage Tide session: 3 vrocks can do a dance of ruin (20d6 in 50' radius). They're more likely to complete it if they're invisible and silenced (I didn't do that, but I thought about it).
Tell us a little more about the classes, levels, builds, etc, of the characters, and we can get really nasty.
Just off the top of my head:
Ready a Grease spell for when the fighter is about to full attack with his greatsword, cleric use his holy symbol, or caster use a wand, staff, or bonded object. Also, for these other objects, disarm works wonders!
Have the party get all buffed up for a combat, then march down the long hallway for 15 minutes.
Mixing squads of look-alike-mooks in with the high class levels NPC.
Give a barbarian level or two to bruiser type creatures with racial hit dice. Have them backed up by dogs/wolves/wrogs/dire wolfs/ etc.
Throw fullplate on creatures with good natural AC.
Wall or water up to your chest = improved cover +8 to AC!
Greataxes, falchions, and especially pick-axes and scythes.
Ranger NPCs with their favorite enemy the PCs race.
My personal favorite - throw the vampire template on a brass dragon.
"And in my group, it calls for it big time!" - Beware! Upping your ante may just start a power-game arms race that ends in... well, the things listed above.
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For those occasions when I am faced with PCs who have the ability to exploit every mechanical aspect of the game, I like to resort to tactics that do not rely on the mechanics of the game. Give them challenges that actually need to be role-played through *gasp!* or rely on the players' own wits. Devious traps and riddles are fun (especially when you pull out your stopwatch and tell the players they have X amount of time to put together a puzzle or figure out the answer to a question.) In my last campaign, I used some of the following tricks:
- An elaborate sliding picture puzzle that needed to be figured out in under eight minutes. Every two minutes, various Symbol spells would activate to one side of the puzzle. At the end of eight minutes, the puzzle and the Symbols reset forcing the party to start over.
- The party had one minute to answer four questions related to items they had encountered during the campaign. These were very specific, unique items and Knowledge checks were next to useless due to their rarity (nothing was known of these items until the party encountered them.) At the end of one minute, a vampiric, half-fiend sphinx was summoned to devour any party member who couldn't answer its riddles.
- I invented a board game the players had to actually play and win if they wanted an item necessary to their quest. I didn't tell them the rules because none of their characters had any previous knowledge of the game. They had to figure it out for themselves as they played by watching what I did on my turns. Losing didn't actually hurt the players, but it did delay their progress at a time when it was dangerous to fall behind.
Though these devices confounded my players, cost them valuable time, got one of them killed (the sphinx) and drove another insane (the Symbols,) they all really enjoyed the challenge. I think adding the timed challenge element really added to the difficulty and fun of the encounters, and there's nothing your players can really do about it short of TimeStop or calling the session early to buy time.
Ladies & Gents, I'm dealing with a group of players who are sporting high-powered characters, and looking for any loophole in the rules in an effort to trounce me. I'm interested in ideas my fellow Pathfinder GM's might have for ways to make life very difficult for my power-gaming players (who for the most part stay within the rules), in the form of clever uses/situations for spells, magic items, battle tactics, etc. In short, I'm interested in how my fellow GM's are "playing hardball" with their player's characters (within the rules, naturally) when the situation calls for it. And in my group, it calls for it big time!
Regards, KGM
Off the top of my head, have them pass through an anti magic area, perhaps set it up so they're being challenged by the mastermind whose actually an army of dopplegangers who can assume the same form so that even if they kill "him/her" the body is destroyed due to an item its carrying intended to keep their secret.
There was a rather nasty trap in the tomb of horrors where the subject once they walk through a curtain of darkness end up being teleported without any of their belongings which end up in the vile creature's lair, i don't recall if this only effected magical items but...
How about that old magical mirror item that when the PCs look at it creates copies of themselves but opposing versions perhaps with identical equipment and the usual urge to slay their originals ala the clone spell.
Of course this doesn't cover such things as a curse that covers the PC's body with an illusion that makes them look and sound like the enemy of another PC so until they figure out they're fighting each other could lead to some hilarity especially if they can't remove it and end up being chased by others hunting their enemies as well!
Hmm, a series of traps that have no seeming effect but in actuality its slowly draining their levels something they won't realise until they actually get to fight something and realise they've got some serious penalties on everything.
As I recall negative energy levels used to do this unless they make a Fort save, now there was others that target the others saves such as glyphs with Will for example, any chance of knowing what level they are?
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A chest resting against the wall. The chest is actually a mimic, and his bulk is hiding either a pressure plate or switch of some sort. The mimic can either just wait for a PC to get close, or can actually attack and adhere to one. He then presses the plate/throws the switch. This either drops both of them through a trap door into an acid-filled pit, or opens a trap in the ceiling and drops a tub of acid on them both. Mimics are immune to acid, I believe. So then the PC has to deal with acid and a hungry mimic.
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For combat threats:
Melee boss (Paladin if they're evil/neutral, Cavalier/Fighter/Etc.. if not) with Sprited Charge, Trample, and a flying mount. Very Very Very effective. Combine with bunches of Ranger mooks, HD = APL-2 or so. Make sure the favored enemy you select is the majority of the party.
Rogues/Alchemist sneaks into camp, sets up all sorts of very tricksy mean traps (Explosive Runes on spellbook, firetrap on beltpouches, alchemist fire and smokesticks everywhere). When they start having problems with their stuff, monsters come over to investigate the noise.
Advanced Horrid Magebred Titanic Toads. Grab, leap, tongue attacks, and everything adds acid to every hit.
Werebears are always very mean, and tough to kill.
Use plenty of illusions...party of mixed groups (Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard) under Veil or similar abilities, Hallucinatory Terrain, Mirage Arcana, Permanent Images and the like are all great delay/division tactics.
The Maze spell, on a low-int, no-SR type of character (Fighter/Barbarian) takes that PC out of 1 combat rather readily. Use some Brass Golems (who can follow him into the Maze) to really up the intensity.
Incorporeal undead are always fun for "educational purposes"...shadows, greater shadows, shades, ghosts, etc...they're all quite nasty for their CR, and ghosts with class levels can be quite challenging.
Finally, set an encounter up like the Chained Spirit from Skeletons of Scarwall (Curse of the Crimson Throne book 5)...you can't kill him for reals until you take out the various "spirit anchors" that allow for his resurrection.
-t
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Use some Brass Golems (who can follow him into the Maze) to really up the intensity.
I actually used this ploy once, except it was one awakened brass golem (using the Awaken Construct spell from Spell Compendium) with levels in fighter chasing the party around an actual labyrinth. To make matters worse, the entire maze was on fire due to a rift to the Elemental Plane of Fire that allowed fire creatures to enter and attack anything (including the golem) they saw. The Brass Golem, of course, regenerated hit points every round due to the constant fire damage so the party had no choice but to run from it until they could figure out how to escape the maze.
Get yourself a Book of Templates if you want to have more fun with monsters. They used to have them here at Paizo, but I guess they sold out.
I agree with the poster who suggested role-play and puzzles, with the caveat that someone might argue, "Can't I just make an Intelligence check to solve it?" You'll need an answer to that prepared beforehand.
I also agree with the other poster--anything they argue that they can do, you can do too, with more monsters and at a higher CR.
Heck, depending on their character/class types, get a Mirror of Opposition and have them have to directly fight their own cheese. (Warning: may not work properly if characters are based on Lina Inverse and Naga the Serpent.)
All of this advice assumes you have tried simply talking to them first, and telling them your frustration. It may well be a matter of clash of the play styles, and you might be able to sort everything out out of game--which is always the best solution with problem players.
If they continue to be problem players and you're not having any fun, dump them and find better players. People always say, "yeah but, they're my friends" or "I don't have anyone to play with..." And that's just BS. Friends don't live to make you frustrated, friends want you to have fun, and even if it takes time, you WILL find another gaming group.
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Since most groups carry some type of bag-of-holding, put a portable hole trap in the floor for them to fall into. *poof*
For even more fun, have whoever setup the portable hole stand a door or pedistal with a ruby or something similar so that the group just thinks they need to head into the "pit" to keep going.
There is always one aspect of the rules which gets neglected by the players. Find out what that is. I have DM-ed a high-level group which had almost unbeatable ACs, but a banshee killed two of them, since they had almost no defense against death magic.
So: find out their weak spot (usually it is sonic, or death magic, or incorporeal enemies, etc.).
Be sparing with antimagic. It disadvantages wizards and sorcerers, so these players will be bored during sessions which large stretches of dungeon where no magic works. If you use it, use it e.g. on one trap. A standard pit trap (preferably with a very deep pit) works nicely with an antimagic field on the same square. It almost killed one of my high-level characters, who decided to fly over it with the fly spell (after they had of course discovered the trap). Well, the spell did not work above the trap and the wizard fell into the pit.
A room wholly coated on the inside with green slime (or another ooze which eats metal) is nice.
It is nice to mess with their minds a bit. Create expectations that are untrue. E.g. the red dragon who has shapechanged itself in a white dragon. The group boosts itself against cold-based attacks and then gets fire-based attacks.
I once made an encounter with a villain controlling a sphere of annihilation. It really scared my epic-level group.
Already mentioned are the monster combos. E.g. monsters immune to lightning in a room with a lightning trap, which resets every round, or every 1-2 rounds. A good book for getting ideas like this is Dungeonscape (3.5 edition).
Use the environment and the weather. Stage fights in lava tubes, during a storm or in mountainous terrain with lots of avalanches. Or in a burning building or in the air.
Use monsters from the ethereal plane or which are incorporeal.
Let the enemies scry the PCs, then boost themselves with spells and then teleport in and attack the PCs, preferably at night, or during an official dinner where lots of low-level NPCs are present, or in the bathroom, or after an evening of revelling when they are all drunk.
Let them solve problems such as a hostage situation, where the low-level NPCs should be saved with as few casualties as possible.
My favorite was a room with a long, arching stone bridge across a 100 foot across pit. 200 feet below was a pit of acid, and they could faintly hear it. The problem was, only the first twenty feet of the arch was real, and the rest was an illusion. And halfway across the gorge was a Wall of Greater Dispel Magic. Now, there was a hidden door off to the side they could go through...two, actually. One was trapped to hell and back, and the other was occupied by a Stone Golem. To top it off, on the other side was what they were looking for, as well as a Deck of Many Things.
You need:
BBEG with scry
Healbot(s)
Hard-hitting dudes who can teleport at will (like fiends) and who are familiar with the area through which the PCs will be traveling. These foes only have to be strong enough that they're hard for the PCs to one-shot.
•Scry 'til you catch the PCs at a vulnerable time.
Dudes 'port in and hit the PCs for maybe 2 rounds, 'port back out to get healed and buffed, then go back for more, in staggered waves, so the PCs can't rest.
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I expect to be at KGM's table this coming weekend. He is not really looking to "talk" to the players - more to challenge them without 'breaking the rules'.
This will be my first session attending this campaign (forecast inclement weather permitting). I expect that it will prove interesting to see the precise group composition and player disposition.
Part of what has KGM a tad unhappy are the two paladins in the group ... and the sheer hitting power derived from smite evil in an Evil-heavy campaign. Most campaigns are Evil heavy. It isn't much fun picking a fight with a bunch of morally ambiguous sorts, after all.
At this juncture, one or both paladins have a +6 base line Charisma modifier, making anything involving saving throws difficult across the board. Against smite-declared foes (that are evil) the paladins' Touch AC is very respectable from the derived deflection bonus. The +10 or +20 damage bonus per hit coupled with the +6 or +8 attack bonus (after factoring in an eagle's splendor) shoots the demolition of baddies into overdrive.
Apparently they had a "heavy" the last session that was sawed like a lumberjack team through an endangered species forest, dealing out a staggering 350 points of damage between 3 characters in Round 1. That's a rather upsetting amount of damage to hear on the GMs side of the screen, especially when you know that the rest of the party hasn't even acted yet.
If it is about paladins, have you ever considered doing something around the law-chaos-axis? Might be worth trying.
If it is about paladins, have you ever considered doing something around the law-chaos-axis? Might be worth trying.
I believe that KGM has an Anti-Paladin BBEG in the pipe line with which to decapitate, disembowel, dismember, maim, mutilate and terrify the group's pair of paladins. ^_^
I for one am glad I'm playing the Neutral Dwarf Ranger ... with favored enemy (human) at +6. Spiffy ...
Props to Turin the Mad for his 2 Cents on the matter. I've got a few ideas, one of which (Turin & anyone else in my group who reads this-you're sworn to absolute secrecy) involves having multiple 1st level wizards cast True Strike during a surprise round-as combat is starting in the next room; and then on their initiative during round 1 of combat, moving and firing Wands of Enervate (with only 1 charge each) at the PCs. Each PC should stand to be hit by 2 Enervates, and then the main villain will proceed to lay into the group with a Life-Drinker weapon (does 2 negative levels per hit-as per the Pathfinder Core book). The main villain with the life-drinker weapon would be protected by a Deathward spell, so he himself doesn't lose a level each time he hits a player character. Anyone detect any flaws with that idea??? Turin???
Of course, it's always entertaining to be the imagined Munchkin in the group who just knows the rules and enjoys building and playing effective characters, who gets hit by the hardcore roleplaying challenges and glides through them like an old pro while the GM stares at what he thought would 'teach that no good roll-player*Coughcoughcough* a lesson'
;)
And for Killer-GM, just to be sure, have you talked to your problem players? It's entirely possible they are just playing a different game than you expected. I know I've often run into cases where I was playing characters that were above and beyond the power level the GM intended to run, but that wasn't my intention, I was just roleplaying a character and getting into the story.
Oh, I've certainly talked to them. One part of the problem is the recommendation in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, that the GM should NOT use an encounter more than 3 (THREE) CR's/EL's greater than the average party level (APL). I base that statement off a chart in the Core book (which I don't have in front of me to give you a page number at the moment). This coming from our beloved Paizo staff who gave us Dragotha & Kyuss who are both a whopping 8 (EIGHT) CR's higher than the average PC level at the time of their respective encounters in the Age of Worms. Apparently now its down to only 3 above the APL... :(
Since my players saw the "3 CR's or less policy" in the book, I haven't heard the end of the complaining anytime I give them an encounter they even suspect might be 3 or more CR's above the average party level. In a nutshell, the guys want to have bad-ass characters (as the Pathfinder rules certainly allow) but then they complain when I attempt to give them something adequately challenging for their bad-ass characters. If you look in the Bestiary, most creatures of only 3 CR's or less above the APL fail to adequately address or challenge a well prepared party (especially one consisting of 6 to 8 players-even though having 6 PCs raises the APL by 1 and having 8 PCs raises it by 2, as in my group...)
I liked a number of the suggestions listed in the posts above. I suspect that at some point I may well make use of:
Caltrops & Mummies with Brown Mold (my thanks Cuchulainn)
Time delays to remove precast Buff spells & mix in look-alike mooks with important NPCs (my thanks Fergie), both of which I've used previously, but the reminder is good:)
Mimic & Acid Trap (my thanks Aberzombie)
and a few more I don't remember the exact posters (thanks to all):
Spirited charge on a flying mount (I was planning on this one already, just waiting for the right time).
Ghosts with PC levels
Maze spell(s) A time honored technique, but one that can't be used realistically unless the PCs are at least 11th or 12th level (when they would expect to run into a 13th level wizard)...
Green Slime (Turin will vouge for this one...)
Creatures immune to 'X' energy type, in a chamber with equal 'X' energy trap
Attacks when important NPCs are present and collateral damage has to be controlled by PCs (soon to be used).
Anti-paladins (already coming down the pike)
More suggestions from you all are appreciated.
Since my players saw the "3 CR's or less policy" in the book...
Not a fan of the CR system. I have found it to be a bit wonky and not really as 'challenging' as it should be, especially of the party are strategic.
That said, I don't think any of us in our group stop long enough to calculate the CR the GM throws at us as we are having too much fun being 'heroic' in the face of adversity - and if the fight looks really epic (GM went overboard on CR again) all the better when we triumph!
Of course you can't make an omelette without cracking some eggs - so every now and then we get a pounding :P
The other curve ball you can throw into a game ia having them face moral dilemnas and 'shades of grey' - you can exacerbate the situation with your swords and axes, but not often solve them :)
As you say Shifty, it is something of a delima. I want to present a fair and reasonable challenge. If it's too easy, I end up eating crow. If it's too hard, the players revolt. It is a balancing act, and one which some players are more prone than others to give the GM crap over. As a player, I like a good challenge, just not a hopeless fight I can't hope to win. Some players just aren't on the same page, and want to win with as few 'close calls' as possible.
I feel your pain!
As a GM I have had to just look at the CR as a reeeeally rough guideline and try not to get too hung up on it.
I build my adventures to what 'feels' right, and that may or may not co-incide with the CR system. Also, things happen in game due to player choices that will change the dynamic of encounter difficulty - ie what if they just directly storm the BBEG's lair? He sure as heck wont have 4 neatly gift-wrapped encounters of the EL waiting, the EL for the whole group may end up in a player slaughter.
So as I say, I don't pull punches on my group. If they go do the recon and put in the preparation, they will likely get an idea of the current enemy disposition and if they attack they will make the strategic decisions to shape the encounter. If they don't, they might find the reverse happen to them! (Gives Rogues and Rangers a chance to shine too!)
Mind you, last nights gaming sessions outcome was resolved with only two dice thrown in anger and resulted in significant storyline outcomes. Strategic thinking, good roleplaying, and a bit of blind luck/out of nowhere thinking cracked a multi-city Thieves guild wide open and the catalyst moment leading to it all will no doubt be an 'anecdote' going forward.
5 hours, two dice in anger, only 1 by a party member - and his was in the wrong :p
As a player I have found the CR system has had me sitting there fighting yet-another-cookie cutter encounter in which the only threat has been staving off boredom. I really couldn't be bothered too much about a fight that ties up 45 mins of gametime just so we can have the obligatory encounter. I'd prefer that 45 mins to be devoted to the story/adventure. A couple of big battles are far more memorable (to me) than a couple of 'for the motions' forgettable skirmishes.
Howdy Sir Charles. The lower CR opponents used in large quantity is a VERY useful idea, and one that I plan to make more use of in the future. This coming Saturday for starters! Regards, Allen
Shifty, I think the CR system is potentially okay (perhaps not great, but better than what they had in 1st & 2nd edition, which was basically nothing other than an XP award which gave the same XP for wasting an Orc, whether you were 1st level or 20th). If the players understand the CR system, and they are on the same page as the GM, fine. If the players are going to place demands on the GM based on their lack of understanding of the system or their desire to "gain an edge" by limiting what the GM throws at them, then problems arise... Bottom line, players often want a cake-walk. I'm old school, and I've become outdated by today's player's norms.
I'm old school, and I've become outdated by today's player's norms.
Me too by the sounds of it. I wan't a crackin yarn of high risk adventure. I want to step off into the unknown, uncertain of whether its one encounter today, or twenty! :) I like being outmatched on paper and having to rely on true grit and ingenuity - as well as a bit of luck, to see out the day!.
4xEncouters@partyAPL+/-2 is not the equation of fun as I know it.
sometimes swarms of lower crs isn't a good idea. especially if they are too low. like 96 generic level 1 kobold warrior mooks against a level 10 party. it may be "Cr 10 encounter" but it sucks horribly at making an efective challenge. as great cleave and reach weapons will take a huge chunk. as will a fireball or burning hands spell. insignifficant resource consumption to take out a CR 10 encounter. especially with an evoker in the party. but at least the underpowered evoker gets a chance to shine.
sometimes swarms of lower crs isn't a good idea. especially if they are too low. like 96 generic level 1 kobold warrior mooks against a level 10 party. it may be "Cr 10 encounter" but it sucks horribly at making an efective challenge. as great cleave and reach weapons will take a huge chunk. as will a fireball or burning hands spell. insignifficant resource consumption to take out a CR 10 encounter. especially with an evoker in the party. but at least the underpowered evoker gets a chance to shine.
Yeah but pull that same stunt in a heavily wooded forest where all of a sudden mobility is hampered, visibility is pooe and fire and lightning become unviable - and with clumps of mooks using stealth to creep up on the (otherwise engaged) party and attacking the rear lines and you have a hell of a mess.
Generally though, most encounters aren't run like that - so the slaughter you predict is all too likely
sometimes swarms of lower crs isn't a good idea. especially if they are too low. like 96 generic level 1 kobold warrior mooks against a level 10 party. it may be "Cr 10 encounter" but it sucks horribly at making an efective challenge. as great cleave and reach weapons will take a huge chunk. as will a fireball or burning hands spell. insignifficant resource consumption to take out a CR 10 encounter. especially with an evoker in the party. but at least the underpowered evoker gets a chance to shine.Yeah but pull that same stunt in a heavily wooded forest where all of a sudden mobility is hampered, visibility is pooe and fire and lightning become unviable - and with clumps of mooks using stealth to creep up on the (otherwise engaged) party and attacking the rear lines and you have a hell of a mess.
Generally though, most encounters aren't run like that - so the slaughter you predict is all too likely
i never get fights that dynamic. i'm usually somewhere inside a dungeon killing things that are put there for no reason. occasionally there's a plot. but it always connects to a featureless 10x10 room. rarely, we will get difficult terrain. but only in cities, forests and the like. this even happens in adventure paths.
i never get fights that dynamic. i'm usually somewhere inside a dungeon killing things that are put there for no reason.
Ahh well I pretty much write my own stuff; that way there is a point to everything being there, and I have a mind about how the BBEG(s) might be affected by the party actions, and how they may be deploying their assets to best tactical advantage.
For example, a Hobgoblin war-boss would look at the terrain and work out the Most Likely Approach of the party, and deploy traps and ranged fire covering that area. They would probably have a group or two waiting in ambush as well. Similarly, any secondary approaches may be covered by skirmishers to act as early warning.
It has always blown me away how many people run NPC monsters as being dumb as paint, and simply charging up the guts without trying to use terrain and surprise to their advantage.
I really feel tempted to write "The Orcish War Commanders Notebook - a handy guide to tactics and strategies employed by the ravaging horde".
I really feel tempted to write "The Orcish War Commanders Notebook - a handy guide to tactics and strategies employed by the ravaging horde".
sounds good.
-Suicidal attackers equipped with two Bags of Holding.
-If they're power-gaming, they're probably not being generous to any NPCs. Play that up with increasing resistance and hostility from everyone.-Make them go through an ancient ritual test of strength where they have to fight themselves. This will cause them to figure out all of their weaknesses for you.
-Put them up against lots of things like Rust Monsters that can permanently destroy equipment.
Having the NPCs of the world get pissy at PC actions is realistic and can sneak up on the party. Sure, they nuke a tavern and the owner is angry. No biggie. But he runs and tells the local mayor, the mayor is tired of their shenanigans and so on until the King sends his big guns to make the PCs answer for their crimes.
CP2020 GMs were encouraged to swipe copies of the party's character sheets. Add a few levels, swap out names/sex/race and then send the clones after themselves. It works and it truly IS evil.
It has always blown me away how many people run NPC monsters as being dumb as paint, and simply charging up the guts without trying to use terrain and surprise to their advantage.
I've said the same many times on these forums. Its unbelievable how many "dumb" NPCs are out there. Makes you wonder how there are any bad guys left at all...
One good encounter from Shackled City shows what an intelligent adversary can do: The party is ambushed at dinner in a tavern by a mercenary group of adventurers. Essentially the attack uses a fighter with a silenced pebble in his pocket, followed by casters with metamagic rods - silent spell of course. Rogue in from behind, was present all the time as a "customer". Nasty as all get out. Add in that I had just convinced the PCs that they don't always go to dinner with all of their weapons/armor/gear, and you get Nasty +3.
Another: I once took over a campaign that was Monty Haul (anyone still use this term?) to the extreme. Golf bags of staves, sword caddies, etc. (No joke). Several run-ins with thieves, tax collectors (500gp apiece to register every staff over 1 sir...), and brash young adventurers eager to prove themselves, and I had it down to a playable level.
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Paragon template.
I was in an epic 3.5 game, and without our bard (in pathfinder the bard would have been much less useful), we were put up against a paragon pit fiend.
The only party member that could damage it was a cohort barbarian with a silver weapon. He was only hitting on 19-20.
After using gate and miracle to call up an elder treant to grapple the thing, the assasin almost killed it, but before his lingering damage went through the pit fiend teleported away and wished to be fully healed. We had to use two bands of binding and only then could we kill it.
The paragon template can make ANYTHING bad-ass. Try it on a monster they will scoff at.
I remember hearing about a game where that DM put the party against half-white dragon Paragon kobold sorcerers. :)
, for anyone looking for it. It would be a bit much to add at 10th level (a Paragon Kobold Warrior 1 would be CR 13... but you know.. it might do the job!)
Actually.. here's a Kobold, not even warrior, just a 1/2 d8 HD kobold. You could use two or three of them.
Kobold Paragon:
HP 23; Init +3; Spd 90;
AC:49 (+9 dex, +1 size, +5 natural armor, +12 luck, +12 insight) (Flatfooted:40 Touch:44);
Melee +32 (1d3+26/18-20, Kukri); +5/+5 (1d3+26, Kukri; 1d3+23, Kukri);
Ranged +35 (1d3+26/19-20, Dagger); +33/+33 (1d3+26, Dagger; 1d3+23, Dagger);
SA: Spell-like Abilities (15th level): (3/day) Haste, See Invisibility, Greater Dispel Magic
SQ: Light Sensitivity (Ex), Darkvision (Ex): 60 ft., Fast Healing (Ex): 20, Spell Resistance (Ex): 22, Damage Reduction (Su): 10/Epic, Resistance: Cold 10, Fire 10; AL LE;
Saves Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +17;
STR 22, DEX 28, CON 24, INT 25, WIS 25, CHA 25.
Skills: (+10 circumstance bonus to all)
Bluff +19, Stealth +27, Craft (Trapmaking) +17
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency: Kukri, Run (450 ft.), Two-Weapon Fighting
Flaw: Unreactive (-6 to Initiative - included)
Possessions: Kukri x2; Dagger x4; trapmaking tools.
Description: Kobolds are short, reptilian humanoids with cowardly and sadistic tendencies.
You're the GM! If they find a loophole, just tell them they can't exploit it whatever way they are planning on doing. Also drop a tarrasque on every player who comes up with some sort of loopholing, or glitching for every three times he does.
And with drop a tarrasque on them i don't mean make them encounter one, i mean literally, a tarrasque falls from the sky directly on top of the player.
I started a similar thread recently, not realizing this thread existed!
support group for cruel GM/DMs
there are some great inspirational stories about screwing players over.
enjoy!
I really feel tempted to write "The Orcish War Commanders Notebook - a handy guide to tactics and strategies employed by the ravaging horde".
I double dog DARE you!