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clarification because the spell specifically says "when making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." since there are literal rules lawyers, the argument will be brought up, so to clarify the sentence does this mean that monks, animals with natural attacks, and anyone with no held weapon cannot then make an extra attack because they have no held weapon? if Mr. Frost can answer this it would be appreciated, I know this is somewhat silly, but believe me it needs to be asked.
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clarification because the spell specifically says "when making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." since there are literal rules lawyers, the argument will be brought up, so to clarify the sentence does this mean that monks, animals with natural attacks, and anyone with no held weapon cannot then make an extra attack because they have no held weapon? if Mr. Frost can answer this it would be appreciated, I know this is somewhat silly, but believe me it needs to be asked.
Not official, but those rules lawyers would get hit with the core book at my table. And that thing can do serious damage now. ;-)
The intent is quite clear to me: If you make a full attack, you get an extra attack with any attack you are currently using. This could be a weapon, unarmed strike or natural attack but you can't draw another weapon and use that.
clarification because the spell specifically says "when making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." since there are literal rules lawyers, the argument will be brought up, so to clarify the sentence does this mean that monks, animals with natural attacks, and anyone with no held weapon cannot then make an extra attack because they have no held weapon? if Mr. Frost can answer this it would be appreciated, I know this is somewhat silly, but believe me it needs to be asked.Not official, but those rules lawyers would get hit with the core book at my table. And that thing can do serious damage now. ;-)
The intent is quite clear to me: If you make a full attack, you get an extra attack with any attack you are currently using. This could be a weapon, unarmed strike or natural attack but you can't draw another weapon and use that.
Looks poorly worded. So your interpretation is that the haste effect works on a weapon and not on the person. So if someone disarms you and you draw another weapon your not hasted anymore?
Moving this to appropriate forum.
When hasted and you do a full attack actions (attacking with weapons, natural attacks, unarmed attacked, etc.) you get to make one additional attack with an attack mode you have.
If you have quick draw you could attack with your greatsword your normal full attack, drop it, then quick draw your dagger and attack with it. Or just attack again with your greatsword. Or you could kick him for an unarmed attack.
If a creature as a bite attack and 2 claw attacks. When it is hasted it gets its bite and 2 claw attacks, then it may make another attack with either its bite or claw.
Haste applies to both melee and ranged attacks, but not spell casting, spell like abilities, etc.
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a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding
This is why the question was asked because of this one specific sentence, If it can please be verified by the powers that be since unarmed strike or natural attack are not weapons held.
As I said silly question, but necessary to some.
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clarification because the spell specifically says "when making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." since there are literal rules lawyers, the argument will be brought up, so to clarify the sentence does this mean that monks, animals with natural attacks, and anyone with no held weapon cannot then make an extra attack because they have no held weapon? if Mr. Frost can answer this it would be appreciated, I know this is somewhat silly, but believe me it needs to be asked.
If you have a weapon ready to hit something and you can make a full attack you get an extra attack. If you have to draw it you don't.
So if you are holding your bow and you fire you can make an extra shot. If you have the bow and drop it and quickdraw your sword you cannot even if you make a full attack. The next round you get an extra attack.
Poorly worded, I can only assure you haste has never been played like being restricted to weapon use as far as I know of, which is now almost 20 years.
Much of the times these issues come up because someone is trying to find a weakness in someone's presented case player vs DM, DM vs player.
Most of the time it has nothing to do with the case itself, if the DM thinks haste is too strong maybe downgrade /aadjust it in a sensible manner, not to exclude a specific party member because he / she is not using weapons, or ban the spell altogether.
a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holdingThis is why the question was asked because of this one specific sentence, If it can please be verified by the powers that be since unarmed strike or natural attack are not weapons held.
As I said silly question, but necessary to some.
Unarmed strikes and natrual attacks are considered weapons held.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
...You are considered to be armed even when unarmed
...but treat them as weapons
I could not find the the quote for treating bite, claw, wing, etc. as a weapon but they are out there... I found those pretty quickly in teh PRD.
It is very simple Natural attacks, unarmed attacks, weapons, can all be used with haste.
Heck lets say we have a monk with a kama and is 6th level who is getting three attacks a round assuming due to other factors his normal flurry attack are +8/+8/+3 to hit, if hasted he would get another attack at +9/+9/+4/+9. He could elect for them to all be kama attacks, or he could swap out any of those and use his unarmed attack.
Poorly worded, I can only assure you haste has never been played like being restricted to weapon use as far as I know of, which is now almost 20 years.
Much of the times these issues come up because someone is trying to find a weakness in someone's presented case player vs DM, DM vs player.
Most of the time it has nothing to do with the case itself, if the DM thinks haste is too strong maybe downgrade /aadjust it in a sensible manner, not to exclude a specific party member because he / she is not using weapons, or ban the spell altogether.
In a home game a DM can do whatever he wants. Originally this thread was in pathfinder society general discussion and that is why he wants it clarified because we all know judging in living campaigns is all over the place. Now if someone can find where it says unarmed strikes and natural attacks are considered "HELD" weapons in pathfinder core rulebook the argument is over. So far I haven't seen anything. Easy fix would be to errata the spell and make its intent clear or state Natural attacks are held weapons.
clarification because the spell specifically says "when making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." since there are literal rules lawyers, the argument will be brought up, so to clarify the sentence does this mean that monks, animals with natural attacks, and anyone with no held weapon cannot then make an extra attack because they have no held weapon? if Mr. Frost can answer this it would be appreciated, I know this is somewhat silly, but believe me it needs to be asked.If you have a weapon ready to hit something and you can make a full attack you get an extra attack. If you have to draw it you don't.
So if you are holding your bow and you fire you can make an extra shot. If you have the bow and drop it and quickdraw your sword you cannot even if you make a full attack. The next round you get an extra attack.
So you are saying an archer has his bow in his hands and someone hastes him. Then on his turn he drops the bow as a free action. Takes a 5' step and pulls his sword he can't get his haste attack with his sword?
The wording for the spell is pretty much the same as it was in 3.5. I am just going to run it like I always did in 3.5.
clarification because the spell specifically says "when making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." since there are literal rules lawyers, the argument will be brought up, so to clarify the sentence does this mean that monks, animals with natural attacks, and anyone with no held weapon cannot then make an extra attack because they have no held weapon? if Mr. Frost can answer this it would be appreciated, I know this is somewhat silly, but believe me it needs to be asked.If you have a weapon ready to hit something and you can make a full attack you get an extra attack. If you have to draw it you don't.
So if you are holding your bow and you fire you can make an extra shot. If you have the bow and drop it and quickdraw your sword you cannot even if you make a full attack. The next round you get an extra attack.
So you are saying an archer has his bow in his hands and someone hastes him. Then on his turn he drops the bow as a free action. Takes a 5' step and pulls his sword he can't get his haste attack with his sword?
The wording for the spell is pretty much the same as it was in 3.5. I am just going to run it like I always did in 3.5.
sure, if you have quickdraw, a 5 foot step won't qualify as a 'regular move' to draw your weapon as a free action.
Poorly worded, I can only assure you haste has never been played like being restricted to weapon use as far as I know of, which is now almost 20 years.
Much of the times these issues come up because someone is trying to find a weakness in someone's presented case player vs DM, DM vs player.
Most of the time it has nothing to do with the case itself, if the DM thinks haste is too strong maybe downgrade /aadjust it in a sensible manner, not to exclude a specific party member because he / she is not using weapons, or ban the spell altogether.In a home game a DM can do whatever he wants. Originally this thread was in pathfinder society general discussion and that is why he wants it clarified because we all know judging in living campaigns is all over the place. Now if someone can find where it says unarmed strikes and natural attacks are considered "HELD" weapons in pathfinder core rulebook the argument is over. So far I haven't seen anything. Easy fix would be to errata the spell and make its intent clear or state Natural attacks are held weapons.
Well it won't say it anywhere, so DM judgement has to be called for.
I take the spell to mean that the player can choose with which weapon to make the extra attack, ofcourse there are plenty of spells and rules you can read into what you want though.
... Now if someone can find where it says unarmed strikes and natural attacks are considered "HELD" weapons in pathfinder core rulebook the argument is over. ...
It is clear as day, but if you get a DM that says "oh no you must be holding the weapon in your hand" point him to the following rules.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.
Then say "Ok my monk grabs his right fist with his left hand there by holding his hand. Now he flurry of blows with his held right fist by his left hand and gets his hasted attack again with said fist since it is now being HELD!"
Then demonstrate technique to DMs face and call him a newb.
A monk's entire body is a manufactured weapon; he needs only to hold himself to be holding a weapon.
Apply the same idea to a creature with a bite attack if the DM wants to not allow a creature to be hasted. The dragon hastes himself then attacks Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail, then reaches up with his right claw holding onto his head and haste bites with his HELD weapon his own head.
Now you have rules of holding a unarmed or natural attack.
LOL... *imagines a dragon asking the party to wait while he puts in his dentures, so he has a viable "held" weapon*
... Now if someone can find where it says unarmed strikes and natural attacks are considered "HELD" weapons in pathfinder core rulebook the argument is over. ...Then say "Ok my monk grabs his right fist with his left hand there by holding his hand. Now he flurry of blows with his held right fist by his left hand and gets his hasted attack again with said fist since it is now being HELD!"
Then demonstrate technique to DMs face and call him a newb.
A monk's entire body is a manufactured weapon; he needs only to hold himself to be holding a weapon.
Apply the same idea to a creature with a bite attack if the DM wants to not allow a creature to be hasted. The dragon hastes himself then attacks Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail, then reaches up with his right claw holding onto his head and haste bites with his HELD weapon his own head.
Now you have rules of holding a unarmed or natural attack.
lol I like it +100
Wow, never seen this question before! I'd be infuriated if someone tried to make such an argument--that would be the apex of rules lawyering--and I'm a lawyer IRL!
To add to the thread, the spell doesn't say "with any weapon he is holding at the time the spell takes effect." So that doesn't mean he is unable to switch weapons and gain the benefit of haste. I mean, if a guy is holding a longsword, then drops it and pulls out a warhammer, then hes holding a warhammer....
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... Now if someone can find where it says unarmed strikes and natural attacks are considered "HELD" weapons in pathfinder core rulebook the argument is over. ...It is clear as day, but if you get a DM that says "oh no you must be holding the weapon in your hand" point him to the following rules.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.Then say "Ok my monk grabs his right fist with his left hand there by holding his hand. Now he flurry of blows with his held right fist by his left hand and gets his hasted attack again with said fist since it is now being HELD!"
Then demonstrate technique to DMs face and call him a newb.
A monk's entire body is a manufactured weapon; he needs only to hold himself to be holding a weapon.
Apply the same idea to a creature with a bite attack if the DM wants to not allow a creature to be hasted. The dragon hastes himself then attacks Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail, then reaches up with his right claw holding onto his head and haste bites with his HELD weapon his own head.
Now you have rules of holding a unarmed or natural attack.
On that Note, My monk will now constally hold his nuts in each combat as his whole body is a Weapon... HEEE HEEEE!!!