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Carapace Devil


Round 2 - Top 32: Create a monster concept

51 to 71 of 71 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Hydro

roguerouge wrote:


But it's not getting my vote. Yes, the clothing monster has a long history in the game, but it's a history of shame and embarrassment marked by derisive humor. Riffing on this type of monster was probably a strategic error. Scroll down to #1 on the list. And the sequel has three more clothing/item monsters in it.

Thanks for the link (and the laugh), but I still think that the "pile of discarded magic refuse" is a solid creature (along with the gelatenous cube and the beholder, both of which also made the list).

Even if the orc does have panties on his head.


Praise:
This is dark and cool, and I am really digging the vibe of it. This is some Diablo or Heretic heavy demonic sh**. If I were a twice damned worshiper of evil, this would be my raiment...

Concerns:
...but that's what it is, a raiment. This is not something you can fight, and as a story point, it's a character more than a monster. At best, it's a template; but in truth this is an item. A cursed item, and really doesn't do anything that an item can't do. That's what a monster is, something dangerous that isn't a trap, and isn't a cursed item, and isn't a part of the BBEG's awesome hoard of magic intelligent armory.

Overall:
I really have to nail this for being an item. At a stretch it could apply this demon-possessed armor template to an enemy, but it's a cursed item. The problem is...that it's incredibly f*ing cool, and shows a bit of originality, or at least a bit of creativity. While cursed armor is nothing new, the way this is presented is in excellent form.

Looking at your item, it was neat and useful, though submitting an item as a 'series' of items doesn't sit with me in a competition for me. Also the Castlevania reference was questionable, even though it is a pretty awesome game. Writing this as Round 1: CaWI(Part 2) really hurts this entry.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014 aka Epic Meepo

My thoughts on the carapace devil...

The Name: Standard devil naming convention. Nothing wrong with that.

The Description: Well, you describe the armor it's placed in fairly well. You also state that the devil is spider-like in form. At which point I find myself wondering just how the spider-like devil is fitting in the suit of armor when its being worn by another creature. Unless, of course, the devil is a flat creature that fits up against the plates of the armor, at which point it can hardly be spider-like, as spiders are not flat.

The Powers: What does the devil do when its armor isn't being worn and it isn't trying to convince someone to wear its armor? Its individual capabilities aren't even touched upon.

The Buzz: Many posters insist that you have described a sentient suit of armor, not a monster, and I have to agree. You could have turned this concept into a monster, but you didn't. A counterexample offered to the "it's an item" camp was an item possessed by a ghost. Would that be a monster? No. The item is just a thing that contains the ghost. The ghost can also exist independent of the item, and has a long list of capabilities that have nothing to do with inhabiting items. The carapace devil has no such capabilities listed in its description.

The Vote: As presented, it's not a monster. Accordingly, the carapace devil has not earned my vote.


Andrew Sun wrote:

Carapace Devil (Loricalia)

I again can't see me using this as a monster. An intelligent Item? Maybe. A symbiont (not yet introduced afaik)? Sure.

But not as a monster. This doesn't do anything on its own in a combat. all it does is giving bonuses (even pincer attacks may count as bonus natural weapons) to its host. So the enemy is the host, not the Loricalia.
Two very basic questions that, in my eyes define a monster have to be answered with no in this case.
1. Can you fight it? No. ( at least not really more than a normal suit of armor.)
2. Does it roll initative? ( this is along the same line, but good to ask if your answer on the first question is not clear.)
No. It's host does.

I'm not considering this for a vote.

Star Voter 2013

Nicolas Quimby wrote:

Thanks for the link (and the laugh), but I still think that the "pile of discarded magic refuse" is a solid creature (along with the gelatenous cube and the beholder, both of which also made the list).

Even if the orc does have panties on his head.

I'm glad you took it well. I had my doubts about whether it was a good idea to post.

My point in doing so was to conclusively prove that these kinds of monsters (items, clothing, linens) have a history and it's a long one. Clearly, there's an appeal there. It doesn't appeal to me, certainly, but there is a niche.


I've never commented on RPG Superstar before, but this discussion has convinced me to break that silence.

I'd very much like to see this entry advanced, just to see what Andrew can do with the stat block to convince people that, yes, he has a monster as well as an item. Given the writeup, he's going to have a hard time demonstrating that, but my hope is that he knew that full well before he submitted the idea, and was willing to gamble because he can deliver the goods.

Because, let's face it: there aren't really all that many unique ideas for monsters anymore. So far, every entry has received comments like, "Oh, it's an ankheg!" or "Oh, it's a ninja frog!" or "Oh, it's an insect from Shaggai," or whatever. Or even, "That's a hazard, not a monster!" But this one got "Oh, it's an item!" which at least makes it stand out a bit.

So is it an item, or a monster, or both? There's really not enough given here to tell. I'd like to find out.

Andoran

Andrew Sun wrote:

Carapace Devil (Loricalia)

Description:

Symbiotic fiends, carapace devils—loricalia, as diabolists know them—are malleable, spider-like creatures that are sealed into a suit of hell-forged armor at the start of their existence.

‘Infernal Regalia’, the formal name of the armors that contain these lesser devils, always vary in style, each suit changing subtly over time depending on the sins of the damned soul within, though by design they all share an essential trait. Each suit’s breastplate is wrought with the visage of a terrifying fiend with a gaping maw—an embellishment that conceals the lair of the loricalia.

The regalia are given to mortals whose base desires match that of the devil inside. No matter how buried the sin the fiend digs it out, amplifying every dark impulse. Cunning, patient fiends, loricalia prefer to guide mortals empathically in this way, posing as potent magic armor. They share their infernal might with such a host, often using the influx of power to distract their bearer from changes in behavior. Through this subtle influence they seek to ensure their host’s damnation.

Powers and Abilities:

Alone, carapace devils are poor combatants; they are too sluggish to pose much of a threat. With a host however, the symbiotic fiend’s weaknesses seldom matter. Within the armor, the fiend’s seven lesser legs clasp their host’s ribcage, firmly embedding in their bearer’s back. Through this link, the loricalia synchronizes with their host, allowing them to function as a singular entity.

The devil then hides their two main, sword-like legs inside the armor’s maw, relying on the host like a knight her steed. Meanwhile, the loricalia empowers their bearer with an Infernal Aegis, sharing diabolic strength, resistances, and stamina with the mortal, as well as granting a dark boon pertaining to their deadliest sin.

You know Andrew, I really liked reading about the "Infernal Regalia" that you depicted because I thought that sounded quite interesting, and could have some interesting looks over time. The monster itself though just didn't scare me enough. You did have some good creativity into this one though. :o)

Grand Lodge Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

How did the author respond to the challenge? Holy crap! Latin! of sorts. I have a weakness for alternate names myself and haven't noticed this in any other entries. This is in danger, perhaps, of looking like a second stab at the magic item round. Given that it's sufficiently monster-like, though, it's reasonably well set out.

How does it stack up


  • as an opponent? Infernal Aegis? Is that a spell? It's formatted a bit like one. Since it's not my job here to look that up, I'll go by the description given, which suggests that the armour grants extra strength to a strong fighter character. I can't make out whether the monster attacks as well with its "sword-like legs" or not.
  • as something other than an opponent? Its program of corruption of its wearer seems to be an important part of the concept.
  • in relation to other monsters? There are a few other symbiotic creatures of a variety of origins and types.
  • in relation to the author's item? A worn item with an indwelling intelligence that influences the wearer - very little distance there.
  • in itself? The vaguely insectile description works well for a creature like this.

It's a complex idea that unfortunately didn't seem clearly explained to me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This gets my vote - sure it is on the fence between monster and item - but it did catch my eye and I felt it was the most unique of the 32 monsters. I respect those who say it doesn’t “count” – but I think that is close-minded and penalizing someone who took a chance creatively and – in my opinion - succeeded. (It does need to be fleshed out a bit - but it is a pitch.)

I stress to say that this is my opinion – no right or wrong here.

This gets my vote. Good luck!

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Ok so the name got be interested. The idea is kind of cool. A symbiotic devil that makes its host dark impulses come surging to the surface. Here are the problems I see. What does a carapace devil want/need? Can the host remove the armor or is it stuck with the armor once it is donned? Would anyone who actually saw this armor and didn't already have an evil mindset even consider putting it on? Is it intelligent? Why not have them implant themselves into the host? It does not directly control its host so how persuasive is it? I'm just not sure it works as a monster on its own. The fact that this makes them seem like they only come in suits of armor makes them seem more like part of a cursed magic item then a creature.

Andrew Sun wrote:

Carapace Devil (Loricalia)

Description:

Symbiotic fiends, carapace devils—loricalia, as diabolists know them—are malleable, spider-like creatures that are sealed into a suit of hell-forged armor at the start of their existence.

‘Infernal Regalia’, the formal name of the armors that contain these lesser devils, always vary in style, each suit changing subtly over time depending on the sins of the damned soul within, though by design they all share an essential trait. Each suit’s breastplate is wrought with the visage of a terrifying fiend with a gaping maw—an embellishment that conceals the lair of the loricalia.

The regalia are given to mortals whose base desires match that of the devil inside. No matter how buried the sin the fiend digs it out, amplifying every dark impulse. Cunning, patient fiends, loricalia prefer to guide mortals empathically in this way, posing as potent magic armor. They share their infernal might with such a host, often using the influx of power to distract their bearer from changes in behavior. Through this subtle influence they seek to ensure their host’s damnation.

Powers and Abilities:

Alone, carapace devils are poor combatants; they are too sluggish to pose much of a threat. With a host however, the symbiotic fiend’s weaknesses seldom matter. Within the armor, the fiend’s seven lesser legs clasp their host’s ribcage, firmly embedding in their bearer’s back. Through this link, the loricalia synchronizes with their host, allowing them to function as a singular entity.

The devil then hides their two main, sword-like legs inside the armor’s maw, relying on the host like a knight her steed. Meanwhile, the loricalia empowers their bearer with an Infernal Aegis, sharing diabolic strength, resistances, and stamina with the mortal, as well as granting a dark boon pertaining to their deadliest sin.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

I like a little sin in my game, and I like the idea of a symbiotic devil like this. But I don't see a reason why it's more of a threat to the PCs than a magical suit of armor. And I don't see why someone truly evil wouldn't slap it on without a second thought. And, like others commentators, that says "item" to me.

I wish this was more powerful and self-motivated. If you put a gaping maw on a devil, it should bite something, not just be ornamentation or a place to hide its legs (which, despite being sword like, it doesn't mention being used as weapons). I'd like to see PCs fight it to free an unwilling wearer who is forced by the devil to fight them, using both the victim's weapons and its own limbs and mouth. That sounds more like a monster to me.


Andrew Sun wrote:

Carapace Devil (Loricalia)

Description:

Symbiotic fiends, carapace devils—loricalia, as diabolists know them—are malleable, spider-like creatures that are sealed into a suit of hell-forged armor at the start of their existence...

I have been pondering some more and I have concluded that the 'sealed into a suit of hell-forged armor' is where this one crosses the line for me. Whatever the loricalia are in their natural states, they are some different type of thing by the time that they arrive in a situation where they will likely encounter most PCs. I think a concept of a metal-hided devil that is tortured by fellow devils into a shape to fit mortal hosts would have been preferable to what currently stands with the 'sealed' step, because to me the 'sealed' implies that this the end result is either a magical item or a loricalia-armor gestalt sufficiently different from a regular loricalia to make this a two creature entry.

In the event of this creature being statted in a future Round, I think some consideration needs to be given to the effect of spells such as word of chaos and banishment on the creature.
I will say that if the 'sealed into a suit of hell-forged armor' line continues to be taken that if that process occurs on the material plane then it might support a line of reasoning for awarding the loricalia the (native) subtype.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Sollir

Just wanted to chime in and say that I'm still reading, still watching this thread. It's so hard to respond without wanting to say something more, so I've been keeping quiet. Everyone who's commented is much appreciated, whether defender, critic, or commentator. Whether I stay or go the next round, the silence ends on Tuesday and I'll be happy to clarify, address some of the issues and go over my monster's faults then!

Hexcaliber:
Someone's already said it, but you have my respect for apologizing earlier in the thread. It's so easy to say what you please because the consequences are so few on the internet. And for what it's worth, I really appreciate the support. Thanks for standing up for my monster and if I get in the next round, I hope not to disappoint =)

Andoran RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka JoelF847

I have to agree, as a monster, this doesn't cut it. It reads like a magic item. Sure, there are monsters out there that wrap up a creature and use it, but in this case, the monster really just helps the wearer of the armor, which is what clinches it for me.

As a magic item even, it doesn't really seem to break much new ground either. All this being said, I really liked your wondrous item, and hope to see more of that mojo if you make it into R3.


Andrew Sun wrote:

Carapace Devil (Loricalia)

cut for space

This is the twenty-ninth monster that I am looking at. I do not read the comments below the entry before posting my opinion. An apology if this duplicates someone else’s entry, in part or whole.

Malleable, spider-like beings sealed into a suit of armor. Okay. Wow. That’s different. The armor conceals the lair of the loricalia. Umm, is the monster the armor or the spider that’s stuck inside? (How does it feed?) Mortals get the regalia. Wait, there’s a devil inside? I thought it was a spider? The fiend digs out sin? With it’s shovel? They seek to ensure damnation. Okay, quite reasonable for a devil, I’ll give you that.

Powers:
*too sluggish when alone (they get excited in mixed company?)
*they need a host (huh? I thought they were stuck in the armor. Does the host have to wear it?
*the breastplate conceals the spider, which sinks seven lesser legs into the host (ah, okay, now I get it – this is a Possession Fiend stuck in a suit of armor, that once the PC puts it on, gets to mindf--- them; apparently, it has one longer than normal leg, when most spiders that have different sized legs have a pair - okay)
*synchronizes with the host (possession, got it)
*two main, sword-like legs (wait, it has seven lesser legs, are there actually 9?)
*infernal aegis (big swog of powers for the host; okay)

Summary: What is this creature? It’s a spider that hides inside a suit of armor, clamps its legs onto the host’s chest, fails to become the Alien but goes on to be much cooler because it grants powers. How is this a downside for the “host”? The visuals are great. It seems a lot less of a monster than a power boost? Wow, this is the #1 entry on Google for “loricalia”. That’s interesting. It may be a forest or it may be a word from a foreign language. Hm. I’m sorry, I’m short of time. I like your ideas, however I can’t reread. Tell us more about the inspiration for this creature please once the contest is done.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Orange Toque

Does it grab me visually: Not really. It poses as magical armor, and subtly pushes the wearer to sins. I want it to be more subtle and not look like evil twisted armor.

Would I use it in game: It could be interesting to get this onto a paladin and watch as the devil slowly corrupts him, but I don’t think I could convince a paladin to strap on something so evil looking. Otherwise, it just seems a like another way to boost the power of an “end boss”

Would my players enjoy an encounter with it: Probably not. I think they would find it anticlimactic after the big fight with the bad guy. “Oh, his armor was evil, too? But it can’t do anything unless it’s connected to a host? Then let’s melt it down and be done with it.”

Osirion RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 aka flash_cxxi

Andrew Sun wrote:

Carapace Devil (Loricalia)

Description:

Symbiotic fiends, carapace devils—loricalia, as diabolists know them—are malleable, spider-like creatures...

Up to here I was waiting with baited breath to see how this looked. I looked at the names of the creatures at the start of the Round and a few stuck out to me as something I definately wanted to see. This was one of them, but I'm sorry to say that it hasn't quite lived up to my expectations.

I sort of agree with Clark on this. It does seem too much like a Magic Item and less like a Symbiotic Creature. I think that "sealed into a suit of hell-forged armor at the start of their existence" is the line that really let me down: I wanted them to simply be a symbiotic Spider Devil that wrapped itself around it's Host (well and have some funky powers to back that up) and while I do like some of the things it can do I just think it sounds too much like an Item for my liking.

It's in my Keep pile for the moment, but with so many Monsters left to read I have a feeling it will slip towards the bottom of that pile.
Sorry but Good Luck. :)

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Sollir

Wow, what a wild ride this competition has been! Thank you to everyone who has commented, cheered, or critiqued my monsters and especially the judges. For those interested, I'll try to do my best to address the main points of this monster-hopefully it will answer your questions or be useful to those of you who compete in a future RPG Superstar.

Note that this is a generalized response to some of the points that were brought up. I will try to explain my creative decisions, but I don't claim that they are necessarily right-simply what I was thinking at the time.

Concept:
Creating the 'Crunch':
Originally I wanted the Loricalia to be a fairly low CR devil that could be added to encounters fairly easily-I pegged the typical Carapace Devil as CR 6 on my first draft. At any level it could be the raiment of a BBEG (lower levels it's particularly effective, while higher CR Carapace Devils would have class levels for greater support). At higher levels, they could be used in multiples to enhance normally 'minion' like creatures, making them a much tougher challenge.

In 3rd edition, a BBEG faced alone or simply concentrated upon by a party would crumple unless you made them a much higher level. Even then, the economy of actions often lead to their demise. I liked that adding in a Carapace Devil to such encounter would give the villain more longevity (with a pseudo Shield Other effect it grants) and an extra combatant that would create difficult encounters without having a BBEG be a very high level. For minions, I find that at higher levels it stretches disbelief that every palace guard is a 10th level fighter (to pose a threat to level 12 PCs), but I could see evil baron's 6th level warriors clothed in Infernal Regalia being just as deadly. The reason why it synchronizes with its host mostly is due to minimizing the number of rolls made-particularly initiative and the headaches that it could create.

Finding the 'Fluff':
I feel like there's been an open creative space for symbiotic creatures in D&D. Like other posters have mentioned, there's some precedent for them, with the Ragamuffin et al. and I wanted to see what I could do with it. I was wrestling with the creature type for a while. Should it should be an evil outsider or aberration or construct? But I felt that emphasizing a devil's penchant for corruption gave the creature more flavor and me more ideas (such as the idea that it basically encourages the wearer's sins and then sort of feeds off them).

There's been a villain tucked away in one of my folders that my PC's still have yet to meet and his armor is akin to that of a Carapace Devil. So, quite honestly, the initial concept came from a very powerful intelligent magic armor. I tried to make several changes to the Carapace Devil to emphasize the fact that it was a monster more than a magic item, but most of it ended up in the statblock, some was alluded to, and some was left on the cutting room floor for the concept stage. Ideally, I would've wanted this creature to be similar to Venom from the Spiderman series, if a comparison had to be drawn.

Monster or Magic Item?:
This was a wicked surprise for me, though I should have seen it coming. I knew in previous years, the definition of a villain was very important to the judges. This question threw me off for a simple, silly reason on my part-after conceptualizing the monster and before I had written out it's description, I had statted it up! In front of me the whole time was the Carapace Devil's statblock and as I was writing, it never occurred to me it was anything but a monster.

I think my two greatest strengths as a DM and designer is my knowledge of the d20 D&D system and my ability to create and balance mechanics. While I owned several AD&D supplements, D&D 3.0 was my start to this amazing game and only a bit embarrassed to say that I was a 'munchkin' at the very beginning. Coming more quickly from a rules perspective, it made sense for me to come at a mechanics-angle first. At the same time, I should have mentally ditched the statblock near the end and see if the concept stood alone. (I also had two reviewers go over the concept, but they came from a writer's perspective or player's perspective, and I definitely will question a few DM's next time as well)

While I don't think the concept is by any means perfect, I do wonder that if Clark hadn't pushed so strongly that it was a magic item if other commentators would have done the same. It was disappointing to see my monster dismissed so quickly by some, but I accept that it's simply a part of the competition. If I get in the next round or a future RPG Superstar, I know to focus more on clarity.

Symbiotic Monster vs. Evil Intelligent Armor:

Mechanics-wise, here's the breakdown!

What makes it a monster and not intelligent armor?

From my perspective:

  • As a monster it has hit points and it can be attacked (though a spot or knowledge check vs. it's disguise check would be required if the PCs are unfamiliar with the creature). If it dies, all of its supernatural abilities vanish, though it's 'carapace' still functions as non-magical armor.
  • It can suffer from area attacks and status conditions-if the Carapace Devil is stunned, banished, or similarly incapacitated, the host loses a lot of their benefits.
  • It can physically attack with its actions as well as use its powers. It can advance in class levels and use those abilities.
  • From a DM's standpoint, if multiple of these creatures show up in an encounter, they take away from the NPC's treasure (not to mention most minion NPC's don't have the gold to afford such armor). And then, if you do use an NPC's gold to purchase such armor, PC's will get mightily pissed off after the 3rd or 4th time they loot these armors, assuming they are wise enough not to wear them. This might simply be a flaw of the d20 system, but having the symbiotic armor be a monster circumvents this problem.
  • It's weaker on it's own than with a host for two reasons. One is that I feel that monsters often have too many powers or abilities in general. Since I was statting the most basic Loricalia at CR 6, I felt that making them as well rounded as an Ice Devil (for example) wasn't right. In my opinion, low level monsters should have weaknesses that PCs can exploit. The second reason is that either the Carapace Devil or it's wearer can be killed before the other does-rewarding crafty PCs who can accomplish either goal more swiftly than normal. Or, if they ambush the villains outside of the armor, the encounter becomes much easier.
  • Finally, a couple lines got taken out (it was simply too wordy) that explained why a Carapace Devil very much likes to be thought of as magic armor. They often wait until the adventurer who loots them is asleep before they attempt to finish the job their host started. Quite possibly unfair, but an idea I thought would be fun and deadly.

Unfortunately, since this round did not cover the stats of the monster, a lot of this I could only allude to. I was trying to not break the rules of the competition, but I think I didn't hint strongly enough about the mechanics behind the creature.

Shortcomings:
I don't think I would submit a different monster if I had the choice to again. I'm pretty proud of the Carapace Devil, though there are of course a few things I would have done differently.

  • I would aim for more clarity with the concept, hinting more on the mechanics than I did.
  • My first intention was for these armors to be donned by people who needed or required power and having them further corrupt their hosts. It wasn't my intention to have the armors catered to corrupting already good or holy hosts but I could see some Loricalia specializing in this endeavor.
  • I would change the basic 'look' of the creature, keeping it as a sort of shelled spider and giving some transmutation power to allow it to shift and look like any heavy armor it needed to (with them often choosing to transform into an armor with a good or neutral deity's face emblazoned upon it to help with the above point).
  • I would try to detail more of the relationship between the host and devil, though I'm not sure how much more I could have put in with the word count.

Overall I'm happy with what I turned in, I know it didn't go over as well as I would have liked to but I'm glad to have gotten some supporters and a lot of great feedback. If I somehow progress in this competition, or if you see me some other time as a designer I will put that much more effort into bringing quality to your gaming table ;-)

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate this experience.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

That monster sounds awesome Sollir. I'm a huge fan of symbiotes as well, and I tend to have them show up all the time in my games. I love that you approached the monster design from the perspective of trying to reduce the loot glut that happens with humanoid opponents. I hope you make it through to the next round, and look forward to what you will be submitting. Please make sure to highlight the best ideas in the next entry - I don't think that what you ultimately submitted for this round did justice to your concept.

Keep up the good work and best of luck in this round and any future rounds in which you participate.


Commiserations.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Hey Andrew,

I admire you for putting it out there and going for the edge. Your thoughts on the design considerations shows that you know where people felt it went over the line. It had 'cool' going for it, the diablo style thing. Maybe empathizing that the devil could attack by itself would have swayed people. I know that I'm looking forward to seeing your entry for RPG Superstar 2011.

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