I've never seen a precedent for one item providing more than one type of bonus to AC. That's something that should go into an Advanced Player's or GM guide to put a halt to something like this.
+2 Enhancement : 4,000gp
+1 Luck : 3,000gp
+1 Sacred : 3,000gp
+1 Insight : 3,000gp
+1 Deflection : 3,000gpSo, for the price of a +4 armor (16,000gp), you can instead get a +6 armor.
This is the main reason it exists a GM to allow for brewing 'custom-made' items.
If a player comes to me asking for a particular bonus, there has to be an explanation for this.If the only thing he wants is 'squeezing' gp for the item (like the examples above... no matter the whining of the player, there is only one single justification for wanting this), the answer is 'NO'.
After all, pricing Magic Items is more an art than a science.
Do you want an armor which effectively gives you a +4 bonus ? Fine, you PAY FOR A +4 BONUS (which is, 4x4, not (1x1)+(1x1)+(1x1)+(1x1)). Worse yet, if you pissed me off, you pay for a +4 bonus as an 'AC bonus(other)' - instead of 1000x16 = 16.000 gp, you pay 2500x16 = 40.000 gp.
Seriously, the rules are guidelines for a balanced play. If somebody wants to screw the system, a GM has the tools AND the right to make him pay. Most people forget to look at this simple sentence when pricing custom-made magic items...
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide."
The lowest price for an armor with an additional +4 AC bonus is 16.000 gp ? Then at best THAT is the price of your +1 Luck/ +1 Deflection/ +1 Sacred/ +1 Profane Armor. IF I as a GM allow you to create it in the first place.
Just my 2c.
Your pricing is off
If on he same item, +3750 gold each, luck, sacred, and insight.
If they are on separately slotted items, that is 2500.So the end cost would be 18250 gold by going to different types of bonuses.
Ah, ok, yes, but still, it's a savings.
This is the main reason it exists a GM to allow for brewing 'custom-made' items.
If a player comes to me asking for a particular bonus, there has to be an explanation for this.
If the only thing he wants is 'squeezing' gp for the item (like the examples above... no matter the whining of the player, there is only one single justification for wanting this), the answer is 'NO'.After all, pricing Magic Items is more an art than a science.
Do you want an armor which effectively gives you a +4 bonus ? Fine, you PAY FOR A +4 BONUS (which is, 4x4, not (1x1)+(1x1)+(1x1)+(1x1)). Worse yet, if you pissed me off, you pay for a +4 bonus as an 'AC bonus(other)' - instead of 1000x16 = 16.000 gp, you pay 2500x16 = 40.000 gp.
Seriously, the rules are guidelines for a balanced play. If somebody wants to screw the system, a GM has the tools AND the right to make him pay. Most people forget to look at this simple sentence when pricing custom-made magic items...
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide."
The lowest price for an armor with an additional +4 AC bonus is 16.000 gp ? Then at best THAT is the price of your +1 Luck/ +1 Deflection/ +1 Sacred/ +1 Profane Armor. IF I as a GM allow you to create it in the first place.Just my 2c.
I agree that it's an issue, but, house ruling it still doesn't make it against the rules. Per RAW, it's copacetic. Basically, it would really affect the tournament stuff and society rp's, since it's RAW. In a private game, yes, the GM is always the final arbiter. However, it still can make the GM's life a bigger headache. I have more arguments trying to shut off something that's RAW than I do adding something to the system.
And, to be honest, there are times when it would be perfectly acceptable to me to have some 'stacked' bonuses on an item.
A Holy Sword with a +2 Enhancement and a +2 Sacred bonus to Damage for example, or a holy armor with a +2 Enhancement and a +2 Sacred AC bonus. Or a set of leather armor dedicated to a god of thievery with a +2 Luck bonus on it.
Ah, ok, yes, but still, it's a savings.
Your pricing is off
If on he same item, +3750 gold each, luck, sacred, and insight.
If they are on separately slotted items, that is 2500.So the end cost would be 18250 gold by going to different types of bonuses.
And again, it still is up to the GM, as the rules are suggestions for item creation. Also what is good for the PCs is good for the BBEG, and other NPCs. So it evens out.
This is the main reason it exists a GM to allow for brewing 'custom-made' items.
If a player comes to me asking for a particular bonus, there has to be an explanation for this.
If the only thing he wants is 'squeezing' gp for the item (like the examples above... no matter the whining of the player, there is only one single justification for wanting this), the answer is 'NO'.After all, pricing Magic Items is more an art than a science.
Do you want an armor which effectively gives you a +4 bonus ? Fine, you PAY FOR A +4 BONUS (which is, 4x4, not (1x1)+(1x1)+(1x1)+(1x1)). Worse yet, if you pissed me off, you pay for a +4 bonus as an 'AC bonus(other)' - instead of 1000x16 = 16.000 gp, you pay 2500x16 = 40.000 gp.
Seriously, the rules are guidelines for a balanced play. If somebody wants to screw the system, a GM has the tools AND the right to make him pay. Most people forget to look at this simple sentence when pricing custom-made magic items...
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide."
The lowest price for an armor with an additional +4 AC bonus is 16.000 gp ? Then at best THAT is the price of your +1 Luck/ +1 Deflection/ +1 Sacred/ +1 Profane Armor. IF I as a GM allow you to create it in the first place.Just my 2c.
I agree that it's an issue, but, house ruling it still doesn't make it against the rules. Per RAW, it's copacetic. Basically, it would really affect the tournament stuff and society rp's, since it's RAW. In a private game, yes, the GM is always the final arbiter. However, it still can make the GM's life a bigger headache. I have more arguments trying to shut off something that's RAW than I do adding something to the system.
And, to be honest, there are times when it would be perfectly acceptable to me to have some 'stacked' bonuses on an item.
A Holy Sword with a...
Too late, it's friday!! XD No arguing today!! Let's party!!!
Still, overall its an exploit of the system to create a suit of armor (or other item) to have very different kinds of bonuses - as I have said before and others as well...
Having the Item Creation Feat doesnt AUTOMATICALLY allow a character to KNOW each and every kind of 'bonus' thats out there. Even from a character building stage I would DEMAND as the GM that a player explain (through Knowledge rolls) how they know of the EXISTANCE of these bonuses beyond the basic enhancement bonus.
And remember...if you pull this kind of stunt, theres one important fact a player doing this should consider...
While you might save yourself a bit of money...the GM if he allows it, SHOULD automatically modify all moderate to high level NPC bad guys to exploit this too, and spend the rest of their money on expendable items, augment crystals and suchlike...
Remember, the winner in any exploitable Arms Race is ALWAYS the GM, what the players use and do is also available to the GM as well for the NPC bad guys (well if its common enough for the player character to know about and exploit it will be so for NPC's as well). So think carefully before you take this 'leap' if your a GM...if players avoid this loophole so will the GM
Still, overall its an exploit of the system to create a suit of armor (or other item) to have very different kinds of bonuses - as I have said before and others as well...Having the Item Creation Feat doesnt AUTOMATICALLY allow a character to KNOW each and every kind of 'bonus' thats out there. Even from a character building stage I would DEMAND as the GM that a player explain (through Knowledge rolls) how they know of the EXISTANCE of these bonuses beyond the basic enhancement bonus.
And remember...if you pull this kind of stunt, theres one important fact a player doing this should consider...
While you might save yourself a bit of money...the GM if he allows it, SHOULD automatically modify all moderate to high level NPC bad guys to exploit this too, and spend the rest of their money on expendable items, augment crystals and suchlike...
Remember, the winner in any exploitable Arms Race is ALWAYS the GM, what the players use and do is also available to the GM as well for the NPC bad guys (well if its common enough for the player character to know about and exploit it will be so for NPC's as well). So think carefully before you take this 'leap' if your a GM...if players avoid this loophole so will the GM
You might also want to check out how a high AC game could go. Often in 3.5 we gave up on AC because bonuses to hit from the BBEG and monsters where too high in comparison. Perhaps where everyone, including the bad guys, have high AC could make for a more remember-able fight.
So instead of punishing them for using the RAW and seeing it as an "exploit", run with it and see what happens.
Personally I would never want to play in a game again where the bad guys had nothing but expendables. It didn't make sense in a lot of cases, and was very irritating to say the least.
You might also want to check out how a high AC game could go. Often in 3.5 we gave up on AC because bonuses to hit from the BBEG and monsters where too high in comparison. Perhaps where everyone, including the bad guys, have high AC could make for a more remember-able fight.So instead of punishing them for using the RAW and seeing it as an "exploit", run with it and see what happens.
Personally I would never want to play in a game again where the bad guys had nothing but expendables. It didn't make sense in a lot of cases, and was very irritating to say the least.
Its not punishing the players, to say NPC's arent clever enough to understand this exploit as well implies their somehow in a bubble apart from the rest of the world.
If a player wants to exploit this then fine, but a GM has every right to use this method as well to create NPC bad guys (why not?, they should be aware of this method as well within reason of course if the NPC in question is reasonably intelligent and/or has resources to get a hold of it). They could spend their loose cash on some Augment Crystals from the Magic Item Compendium, Scrolls, Potions, even upgrading an existing item or two if they have enough money within reason or some of the "daily use" items in the M.I.C. that have so many charges a day arent outside of the realms of possibility.
I wouldnt stop a player trying to exploit this, as long as they pass some stringent KNOWLEDGE checks, they dont 'automatically' know of each and every bonus type out there ( dedicated fighters in particular have POOR 'Knowledge' skills for this purpose). As long as it can be EXPLAINED through roleplay or Knowledge rolls in game or during character creation they could have it...but at the same time they should be aware some NPC's I'll be using will also exploit it as well.
After all, its only fair. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander too.
Its not punishing the players, to say NPC's arent clever enough to understand this exploit as well implies their somehow in a bubble apart from the rest of the world.
If a player wants to exploit this then fine, but a GM has every right to use this method as well to create NPC bad guys (why not?, they should be aware of this method as well within reason of course if the NPC in question is reasonably intelligent and/or has resources to get a hold of it). They could spend their loose cash on some Augment Crystals from the Magic Item Compendium, Scrolls, Potions, even upgrading an existing item or two if they have enough money within reason or some of the "daily use" items in the M.I.C. that have so many charges a day arent outside of the realms of possibility.
I wouldnt stop a player trying to exploit this, as long as they pass some stringent KNOWLEDGE checks, they dont 'automatically' know of each and every bonus type out there ( dedicated fighters in particular have POOR 'Knowledge' skills for this purpose). As long as it can be EXPLAINED through roleplay or Knowledge rolls in game or during character creation they could have it...but at the same time they should be aware some NPC's I'll be using will also exploit it as well.
After all, its only fair. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander too.
I don't think he was advocating that only the PCs should have it, I think he was advocating that it shouldn't be considered an exploit, and everyone should be allowed to do it (NPCs and PCs).
Honestly, he has a point about BAB. Full BAB outpaces AC signficantly, 3/4 about keeps up, and 1/2 BAB is at a disadvantage.
It's not unusual to have a 10th level fighter character with a +20 or better to hit (10 BAB, +5 STR, +3 Enhancement, +2 or more from buffs). However, at level 10, you're maxing out at about 28 AC on a heavily armed fighter/paladin. Every other class tops out about 24-25. So vs a fighter, a fighter has a 50+ or better to hit, against a non-frontline character, he has a 70% or better. And that percentage goes UP from there, because attack bonus outstrips AC (You've about maxed out your AC by level 12).
While it is true a moderate to high level fighter is going to have perhaps a better chance to hit frequently than a equivilent level characters/targets AC, you have to take into consideration his additional attacks at -5 each time, he might hit with the first attack using this example and each subsequent attack is in the high 10's and upward to hit on a d20.
Using the conditions you set above, his first attack might very well hit, but subsequent attacks are less likely each time. (Plus Two-Weapon Fighting adds a further -2 to each weapon, if you follow that tree of feats). Add to that something like Power Attack and of course his secondary attacks and so on are going to be very lucky to hit vs a high armor class foe as it is without increasing it even further.
To me thats pretty fair, after all, if someones AC is so high and theyre not even a figher type character - the fighter is going to hit maybe once (maybe twice) on average with two to three attacks assuming no flanking bonuses, etc - pushing peoples AC up even higher weakens fighter type characters who rely on dishing out damage in melee.
Attack Bonus does tend to get better than AC, but there are lots of modifiers that make it harder to hit (concealment, etc.), a simple Blur/Blink spell incurrs a miss chance thats difficult to bypass without True Seeing and suchlike from items and/or allied spellcasters.
In short, I sympathise that -nobody- wants to get hit by the tanked fighter type bad guy, but odds are its going to happen because thats his bread-and-butter. If you ramp up your AC using this method, then its likely a bad guy of this calibur is going to do the same.
The only winner in this battle of high AC's is the spellcasters who get to use ranged touch or touch attack spells with no save or partial effects on a save, Touch AC tends to be poor for a reason. Spellcasters dont really care if a fighter has some tooled suit of armor - they know his or her Touch AC is likely pretty poor. (There are some exceptions to this depending on your build/race/items but not many, etc.)
