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Acrobatics / tumble question


Rules Questions

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

what if the subject is surrounded on all sides by opponents in all squares. And you want to tumble out of the middle of them do you have to count every one of them against the tumble DC

Rules state that you raise the DC by 2 for each additional opponent avoided. So does that mean that every one either gets an attack of opportunity, or you have to add 5 plus 16 to the difficulty of the acrobatics role for moving through an occupied space? If you have to count all enemy's, can you choose to exclude them and take AoO? Or choose which/some opponents to defend against?

x_x_x

X/0/X

x_x_x

Or... do you only count the one the actual tumble attempt is against.
It seems this would make it nearly imposible to tumble out of the middle of a group of goblins if you were surrounded


If you're surrounded from all squares, and assuming none of the opponents have reach, the tumble DC would be following:

CMD(of the opponent you're trying to move through)+5+8(2 times 4, because only four other opponents would get AoO)

If they had reach, all would threaten you, and the DC would be

CMD+5+14

Liberty's Edge

I'm not sure I understood correctly, If the subject is surrounded on all sides, it's 8 oponents threatening her. That'd be:

XXX
X0X
XXX

X=Enemy, O=Subject

My guess is that she'd have to roll separately for each AoO she's trying to avoid. I'd say the first one would be the one from the opponent she's trying to get through, so the acrobatics DC for each roll would be:

CMD1 + 5
CMD2 + 2
CMD3 + 4
...
CMD8 + 14

That'd be moving at half speed. For full speed she'd have to increase the DC by 10.

Also, she could choose not to roll for a particular enemy, and take that AoO.


yes, it is near impossible to tumble out off a group of skilled opponents.

say 8 goblins surround you :

CMD 12

to move into the square of a random goblin DC 12 + 5, after that you make 7 checks every [bold]success[/bold] increases the DC by + 2, so if they are all goblins there is no reason really to avoid taking that roll.
You need to keep track of the ones that will still threaten you after you leave your square though, usually they can only make one AoO per round, so they might not be able to make more.

For this reason it is best to try avoid those that wont threaten you after this 5 feet movement first, any other failures might use up their attacks of oppurtunity for the round.

After that you still are threatened by 3 goblins (assuming you move to one of the 'corners') and you have to move further though you will be moving towards a presumably clear space outside the tangle of goblins so the + 5 to the DC for passing through an enemy space will be gone,
best to move diagonal again if you can spare the movement (10)since it will only leave you one goblin that threatens you.

Then once more to be clear of threats (for a little while at least)

so assuming all success this will be how it goes :

DC (12+5)17, (12+2)14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26
then : DC 28, 30, 32 (none flanking)
finally DC 34

might be best to kill one goblin and then move since it will give (effectively) you a bonus of + 2 and avoids three rolls to be made, topping out at DC 28.

Then again these are goblins, it is fair to say you could be in a fair bit of trouble with tougher critters. You could target the heavy hitters first, for the best chance to avoid their attacks and move away from them if you can, maybe consider taking some AoO from mixed in goblins for example to keep the tumble DC's low for when it really matters.

alot of rolling maybe, but I do like the increased DC of pathfinder, tumble made no sense after a certain point in 3.5


midknight wrote:

I'm not sure I understood correctly, If the subject is surrounded on all sides, it's 8 oponents threatening her. That'd be:

XXX
X0X
XXX

X=Enemy, O=Subject

My guess is that she'd have to roll separately for each AoO she's trying to avoid. I'd say the first one would be the one from the opponent she's trying to get through, so the acrobatics DC for each roll would be:

CMD1 + 5
CMD2 + 2
CMD3 + 4
...
CMD8 + 14

That'd be moving at half speed. For full speed she'd have to increase the DC by 10.

Also, she could choose not to roll for a particular enemy, and take that AoO.

This is correct, but I usually just do one roll to save time.


That's what I was also after - one DC, one roll. Difficult roll for sure, but it's a tricky situation in any case.


Just a note, even if the goblins had combat reflexes, the subject would only provoke once for each goblin. "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus." PFCRB p. 180

So for the first goblin, the one whose space you are moving into, you'd have a DC 17 (12+5). Then a check for each additional goblin, adding +2 to each roll for each AoO you've avoided thus far. So if you make the first on, then the second DC would be 14 (12+2), if you fail that one, the third would also then be 14, if you make that, the fourth would be at 16, and so on.


Father Dale wrote:

Just a note, even if the goblins had combat reflexes, the subject would only provoke once for each goblin. "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus." PFCRB p. 180

oh great I can see my players running a full circle around my NPC before running away just to spite me *grumbles*, didnt know that though, is that new to pathfinder ?


No it was like that in 3.5 as well. 3.0 too if I recall.


looked it up, it was a new rule in 3.5, 3.0 didnt have that rule yet ;)


midknight wrote:

I'm not sure I understood correctly, If the subject is surrounded on all sides, it's 8 oponents threatening her. That'd be:

XXX
X0X
XXX

X=Enemy, O=Subject

My guess is that she'd have to roll separately for each AoO she's trying to avoid. I'd say the first one would be the one from the opponent she's trying to get through, so the acrobatics DC for each roll would be:

CMD1 + 5
CMD2 + 2
CMD3 + 4
...
CMD8 + 14

That'd be moving at half speed. For full speed she'd have to increase the DC by 10.

Also, she could choose not to roll for a particular enemy, and take that AoO.

So if you choose to trust your in your armor class and take the AoO all you have to add is the CMD plus 5 to move through the space, or add plus two to the DC for any enemy's you choose to avoid.

Correct?

First of all, if you miss your first roll to tumble/acrobaticly through the first opponent, you end in the first open
square. Moving nowhere, do all of the opponents get to make an attack even though you did not move. For just attempting to tumble?

Second, do you get to make a acrobatics roll against every one of them to decide if they get a AoO


joecoolives wrote:

So if you choose to trust your in your armor class and take the AoO all you have to add is the CMD plus 5 to move through the space, or add plus two to the DC for any enemy's you choose to avoid.

Correct?

Would you even have to add the plus 5? Because according to the chart in the acrobatics skill description, that "5 + opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense" is the DC used for avoiding the attoack of opportunity due to the movement. It does not seem to clarify what you would need to simply move through the opponent's square if you don't care about the attack of opportunity.


"Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by
an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move
through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without
penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may
present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each
square you move through counts as 2 squares."

"Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use
Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an
opponent (see the Acrobatics skill)."

while not specifically stated it seems you can not get through an opponents square without a succesful tumble check.

these are discussed in tactical movement in the corebook by the way.
(page 193)


Remco Sommeling wrote:

"Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use

Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an
opponent (see the Acrobatics skill)."

D'oh! Looked right past that one. So would it be just a straight acrobatics check if you aren't trying to avoid the attack of opportunity?

Quote:
while not specifically stated it seems you can not get through an opponents square without a succesful tumble check.

Well, there is always the overrun maneuver. I was just wondering if there was a way to manage it through acrobatics (which it seems there is) and what the DC and/or penalty would be if you're not trying to avoid the attack of opportunity. Or you could reasonably conclude that the rules are such that if you are not trying to avoid the AoO, then you aren't actually tumbling at all and it is simply an overrun attempt.

If I were DM'ing, and a player wanted to tumble through an opponent's square without trying to avoid the AoO, I'd probably give it a straight acrobatics check at about DC 15 ONLY if the opponent did not try to stop them (aside from the AoO). If he does try to stop them, then I guess I'd figure it as an overrun attempt, and either give them a bonus to their CMB for the tumble, or maybe substitute their acrobatics bonus for their CMB for the attempt.


I assume it to be assumed the opponent isn't cooperating (those villains can be so cross), with nothing else to go on it seems you would need the tumble DC + 5, like stated to avoid an attack of oppurtunity.

Possibly you can houserule to only fail to pass if you get hit by an AoO from the opponent, even if your tumble skill isnt good enough you can get passed in that case.

Personally I prefer not to let them pass if they fail the check, wasted move action, and the victim of an AoO or multiple AoO like you did move. You could try again with your next move action though.


Remco Sommeling wrote:
I assume it to be assumed the opponent isn't cooperating (those villains can be so cross), with nothing else to go on it seems you would need the tumble DC + 5, like stated to avoid an attack of oppurtunity.

So you think you can only use the tumbling if you are attempting to avoid the Attack of Opportunity?


King Joey wrote:
Remco Sommeling wrote:
I assume it to be assumed the opponent isn't cooperating (those villains can be so cross), with nothing else to go on it seems you would need the tumble DC + 5, like stated to avoid an attack of oppurtunity.
So you think you can only use the tumbling if you are attempting to avoid the Attack of Opportunity?

You can use it to move anytime, but it forces you to move at half-speed so if you are not avoiding trying to avoid an attack of opportunity there is no reason to use it.


King Joey wrote:
Remco Sommeling wrote:
I assume it to be assumed the opponent isn't cooperating (those villains can be so cross), with nothing else to go on it seems you would need the tumble DC + 5, like stated to avoid an attack of oppurtunity.
So you think you can only use the tumbling if you are attempting to avoid the Attack of Opportunity?

I think you have to use tumbling to get through an opponents square,

even if it can't or won't make an AoO.


Remco Sommeling wrote:

I assume it to be assumed the opponent isn't cooperating (those villains can be so cross), with nothing else to go on it seems you would need the tumble DC + 5, like stated to avoid an attack of oppurtunity.

Possibly you can houserule to only fail to pass if you get hit by an AoO from the opponent, even if your tumble skill isnt good enough you can get passed in that case.

Personally I prefer not to let them pass if they fail the check, wasted move action, and the victim of an AoO or multiple AoO like you did move. You could try again with your next move action though.

I completely agree, if a PC wants a more effective way to pass through an enemy's square there's always overrun.

It is not penalized by being threatened by more enemies, I think, and nothing holds you from tumbling to also avoid the AoO's from the surrounding enemies as you move.
You'd still eat one AoO from the overrun creature if you didn't have improved overrun though, that would be unavoidable.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Remco Sommeling wrote:
I think you have to use tumbling to get through an opponents square, even if it can't or won't make an AoO.

This is correct (unless the opponent is 3 size categories different).

I sincerely do not think the rules in any way intend you to roll separate checks against each opponent, regardless of how the DC is calculated.

Here's how I do it, and it seems to work both quickly, and in line with the rules.

  • 1. Describe your Tumbling path, whether around or through different creatures.
  • 2. Roll your Acrobatics check once.
  • 3. Compare this to the CMD (or CMD +5 if moving through) of the first creature to get an attack of opportunity.
  • 4. Repeat Step 3 for each threatening creature, adding +2 each time. Do not reroll.
  • 5. Move one square.
  • 6. Repeat steps 3-5 for any new threatening creatures (do not re-add/compare against a creature you already compared against).

    I don't think you get to "choose" who you are avoiding, but under this method it doesn't matter - it's a free part of the one check.

    Example:

    Spoiler:
    1. Tumbler T is trying to get to Ogre O to flank with Fighter F, but surrounded by Goblins G. CMD of Goblins is 12, CMD of Ogre is 18.

    G G G
    G T G _ _ O F
    G G G

    2. He tumbles out, rolling a 12 and adding his +10 (go go halfling acrobatics for 22.

    3a. Since he beat 12+5, he will be able to enter (and leave) the first Goblin's square (directly to the right).

    3b-f. Since he beats 12+2, 12+4, 12+6, 12+8, and 12+10, he avoids attacks from five more Goblins.

    3g-h. Since he fails to beat 12+12 and 12+14, the back two goblins get to swing at him. It doesn't matter which ones it was, since he will only provoke once from any goblin for moving.

    5a. He moves into the first goblin's square.

    5b. As no new goblin's threaten him, he moves again, to two squares left of the Ogre.

    5c. Now threatened by the ogre, we compare his 22 vs. the Ogre's CMD of 18, +16 for being the 9th creature = fail. Ogre gets an attack as T moves* one more square to the right, and can now flank (if still alive).

    In play, it's really easy - roll once, and just tick off how many defenders he succeeds against, giving attacks for any failed on. "CMD is 17, roll,:" "24 total", "okay, that's good for 17,19,21,23 - four of the orcs - the fifth one gets a swing at you... Crit**, you're dead."

    *: At half speed, T would need a 30 movement to get this far.
    **: this is the best part.

  • Scarab Sages

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Majuba wrote:
    Remco Sommeling wrote:
    I think you have to use tumbling to get through an opponents square, even if it can't or won't make an AoO.

    This is correct (unless the opponent is 3 size categories different).

    I sincerely do not think the rules in any way intend you to roll separate checks against each opponent, regardless of how the DC is calculated.

    Here's how I do it, and it seems to work both quickly, and in line with the rules.

  • 1. Describe your Tumbling path, whether around or through different creatures.
  • 2. Roll your Acrobatics check once.
  • 3. Compare this to the CMD (or CMD +5 if moving through) of the first creature to get an attack of opportunity.
  • 4. Repeat Step 3 for each threatening creature, adding +2 each time. Do not reroll.
  • 5. Move one square.
  • 6. Repeat steps 3-5 for any new threatening creatures (do not re-add/compare against a creature you already compared against).

    I don't think you get to "choose" who you are avoiding, but under this method it doesn't matter - it's a free part of the one check.

    Example:** spoiler omitted **...

  • Oh boy. Been doin' tumble checks so wrong in my game. Never knew about the increase for multiple opponents. I would have eaten a lot more goblin rogues in my last game if I knew about this.


    Majuba wrote:
    Remco Sommeling wrote:
    I think you have to use tumbling to get through an opponents square, even if it can't or won't make an AoO.

    This is correct (unless the opponent is 3 size categories different).

    I sincerely do not think the rules in any way intend you to roll separate checks against each opponent, regardless of how the DC is calculated.

    Here's how I do it, and it seems to work both quickly, and in line with the rules.

  • 1. Describe your Tumbling path, whether around or through different creatures.
  • 2. Roll your Acrobatics check once.
  • 3. Compare this to the CMD (or CMD +5 if moving through) of the first creature to get an attack of opportunity.
  • 4. Repeat Step 3 for each threatening creature, adding +2 each time. Do not reroll.
  • 5. Move one square.
  • 6. Repeat steps 3-5 for any new threatening creatures (do not re-add/compare against a creature you already compared against).

    I don't think you get to "choose" who you are avoiding, but under this method it doesn't matter - it's a free part of the one check.

    Example:** spoiler omitted **...

  • I like the way you do that. I think I'll do it that way in my games.

    I do think that a character can choose whether or not he's trying to avoid the AoO from someone while tumbling. Its an active character decision to try to avoid in the first place, so he should be able to decide whether to eat the AoO or not, and there can be plenty of tactical reasons why he would make such a choice. i.e. he'd rather take the AoO himself than permit his more squishy companion to, or hes facing multiple AoOs from different types of targets, some of whom pose considerably more danger than others. I certainly wouldn't lock a player into an all or nothing decision.


    Majuba wrote:
    Remco Sommeling wrote:
    I think you have to use tumbling to get through an opponents square, even if it can't or won't make an AoO.
    This is correct (unless the opponent is 3 size categories different).

    But isn't that exactly what overrun does, move you through the opponents square?

    The question I have is this: the tactical movement rules say that you can use tumbling to move through an opponent's square and make reference to the acrobatics skill description. In the acrobatics skill description, there is no discussion of simply moving through an opponents square; it only describes how to use acrobatics to move through an opponents square AND avoid the attack of opportunity that would provide. So is there any way to use acrobatics to move through an opponent's square without avoiding the attack of opportunity?

    Scarab Sages

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Majuba wrote:
    Remco Sommeling wrote:
    I think you have to use tumbling to get through an opponents square, even if it can't or won't make an AoO.

    This is correct (unless the opponent is 3 size categories different).

    I sincerely do not think the rules in any way intend you to roll separate checks against each opponent, regardless of how the DC is calculated.

    Here's how I do it, and it seems to work both quickly, and in line with the rules.

  • 1. Describe your Tumbling path, whether around or through different creatures.
  • 2. Roll your Acrobatics check once.
  • 3. Compare this to the CMD (or CMD +5 if moving through) of the first creature to get an attack of opportunity.
  • 4. Repeat Step 3 for each threatening creature, adding +2 each time. Do not reroll.
  • 5. Move one square.
  • 6. Repeat steps 3-5 for any new threatening creatures (do not re-add/compare against a creature you already compared against).

    I don't think you get to "choose" who you are avoiding, but under this method it doesn't matter - it's a free part of the one check.

    Example:** spoiler omitted **...

  • I have one problem with the explanation/example. The rule in the book says +2 for each additional opponent avoided in 1 round.

    The way your example went, it increases by +2 for each opponent, stacking as you go. In other words, the first got got a +2 boost, the next one got a +4 (stacking with the previous +2, etc). All fine, but wouldn't you instead add up all threatening opponents, and add this bonus to all CMD's, not +2 stacking?

    You aren't avoiding each AoO, one at a time, you are avoiding them all at once. Therefore, using your above example, each goblin has a CMD of 28 (12 + 16 (for 8 opponents after the 1st), and a 33 for the one goblin he's trying to tumble through. The ogre's CMD would be a 34, since you aren't trying to tumble through him, just up to him, as you stated in your example.

    Anyway, this is the way I see the rule. Just my 2 cents.

    Scarab Sages

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    King Joey wrote:
    Majuba wrote:
    Remco Sommeling wrote:
    I think you have to use tumbling to get through an opponents square, even if it can't or won't make an AoO.
    This is correct (unless the opponent is 3 size categories different).

    But isn't that exactly what overrun does, move you through the opponents square?

    The question I have is this: the tactical movement rules say that you can use tumbling to move through an opponent's square and make reference to the acrobatics skill description. In the acrobatics skill description, there is no discussion of simply moving through an opponents square; it only describes how to use acrobatics to move through an opponents square AND avoid the attack of opportunity that would provide. So is there any way to use acrobatics to move through an opponent's square without avoiding the attack of opportunity?

    Aye, but overrun doesn't avoid AoO's from all surrounding opponents, just from the opponent you are attempting to overrun, and only if you have Improved Overrun. While tumbling won't have a chance to knock your opponent down, you can hopefully avoid a lot of AoO's.

    As to moving through an opponents square, if you are 3 sizes smaller than the opponent who's square you are trying to enter, they can't stop you. They can only attack you on the way in. But, you can't stop in their area unless they are helpless. More information on this can be found on page 193 of the Core Rulebook.


    well this text leads me to believe it is so...

    "* This DC is used to avoid an attack of opportunity due to
    movement. This DC increases by 2 for each additional
    opponent avoided in 1 round."

    I took avoided as every succesful evasion, you might take it as every attempt at evasion as well, I see your point, I am just not sure which it is.

    in some ways your method would be simpler but more lethal, and the player cant change his mind what to do mid-round.
    The rogue could tumble through a group of creatures and turn a corner to spot even more, if he then decides to tumble through those as well.. the old DC's should in actuality have been higher.

    Altogether it doesn't seem like it should work that way.


    William Sinclair wrote:
    King Joey wrote:
    So is there any way to use acrobatics to move through an opponent's square without avoiding the attack of opportunity?
    Aye

    Okay, so what is the mechanic for doing this? Would it require the same contest of acrobatics versus CMD +5? That wouldn't make any sense as it should be harder to slip through AND avoid the AoO than it is to simply slip through.

    Scarab Sages

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    King Joey wrote:
    William Sinclair wrote:
    King Joey wrote:
    So is there any way to use acrobatics to move through an opponent's square without avoiding the attack of opportunity?
    Aye
    Okay, so what is the mechanic for doing this? Would it require the same contest of acrobatics versus CMD +5? That wouldn't make any sense as it should be harder to slip through AND avoid the AoO than it is to simply slip through.

    The whole purpose of tumble is TO avoid an AoO. Normally, you just move around a creature, through his threatening squares. If you have to move THROUGH him, say an ogre in a 10 ft. wide corridor, that's harder than just moving around him, thus the additional +5 to the CMD. The only thing I don't like is that even if the Acrobatics check fails, the person performing the Acrobatics check still makes it through the enemy space. Kinda munchy, I think, but that's just my opinion.


    William Sinclair wrote:
    The whole purpose of tumble is TO avoid an AoO.

    But the tactical movement rules (p. 193) specifically state:

    Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Acrobatics skill).

    That doesn't say anything about avoiding an AoO. So I'm just wondering if there is intended to be a separate game mechanic for using the Acrobatics skill to simply move through an opponent's square when you don't care about the AoO.

    Or, were they talking about the typical tumbling maneuver to avoid the AoO and the ability to use it to go through an opponent's square (at an additional 5 DC)?

    Scarab Sages

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    King Joey wrote:

    But the tactical movement rules (p. 193) specifically state:

    Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Acrobatics skill).

    That doesn't say anything about avoiding an AoO. So I'm just wondering if there is intended to be a separate game mechanic for using the Acrobatics skill to simply move through an opponent's square when you don't care about the AoO.

    Or, were they talking about the typical tumbling maneuver to avoid the AoO and the ability to use it to go through an opponent's square (at an additional 5 DC)?

    Again, I think this was something poorly worded. Certain things were carried over with an unwritten understanding of earlier rules and concepts. By using the information on pg. 193 with the information under Acrobatics on page 87, one can glean the whole truth, that Acrobatics (Tumbling) allows you to move through a creatures square as well as avoid the AoO. As per the rules on page 193, you can NEVER move through an opponents square unless they are helpless, or you use Acrobatics, which kinda answers my gripe before (why you make it through their square even if you get attacked).


    the simple answer would be you do not get through, but then in 3.5 that was clearly worded, now it seems to be deleted, which makes me doubt.

    For lack of solid ruling I will go with the explanation that on a fail you do not get through and ends your move action.


    Remco Sommeling wrote:

    the simple answer would be you do not get through, but then in 3.5 that was clearly worded, now it seems to be deleted, which makes me doubt.

    For lack of solid ruling I will go with the explanation that on a fail you do not get through and ends your move action.

    Yes, if you don't make the roll you dont' make it through. That is how we play it at least. If you don't make the DC roll you dont automaticly get to move through the space, and just provoke . Going back to 3.5, I supose.

    What brought this question up is I had a certain ghast aristocrat who got surrounded by the party and tried to tumble out of the middle. of 4 players I had a good skill role at 26 which just made it through the paladins CMD. but once we added all the 2's to the role it would have been 32. So I decided to just take the lesser damage from the other characters because I wasn't to concerned with thier damage, but the paladin hurt, and I had to get around him to have any hope of escaping for another round or two.

    So I was wondering if you can ignore others to take the AoO, thus reducing the DC check being that I was only worried by one of the players. Or if you don't have that option, and the DC would stay 32 because of all those threatening. Meaning that the monster would not move at all, or making the 26 to end up on the other side of the paladin.


    it makes sense to me to be able to ignore others, I know I would if I had DR and only one guy to seriously threaten me.

    The tumble rolls aren't that easy anymore I think I can allow my players that bit of gace as well.

    Scarab Sages

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Okay, this thread issue continues to come up in my game. Could we get an official call on this?

    If a player/npc fails an Acrobatics (tumble) check when moving through an opponents square, are they stopped, or do they get through suffering an AoO?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

    Funny enough, this came up twice this past weekend, because of invisible acrobatics checks to move through - where they aren't even concerned about the AOO's (total concealment and all). We dropped the Dex from the CMD and added +2 for invis, but this question still applies.

    By the way:

    William Sinclair wrote:
    Majuba wrote:

    Here's how I do it, and it seems to work both quickly, and in line with the rules.

    Spoiler:
  • 1. Describe your Tumbling path, whether around or through different creatures.
  • 2. Roll your Acrobatics check once.
  • 3. Compare this to the CMD (or CMD +5 if moving through) of the first creature to get an attack of opportunity.
  • 4. Repeat Step 3 for each threatening creature, adding +2 each time. Do not reroll.
  • 5. Move one square.
  • 6. Repeat steps 3-5 for any new threatening creatures (do not re-add/compare against a creature you already compared against).

    I don't think you get to "choose" who you are avoiding, but under this method it doesn't matter - it's a free part of the one check.

  • I have one problem with the explanation/example. The rule in the book says +2 for each additional opponent avoided in 1 round.

    The way your example went, it increases by +2 for each opponent, stacking as you go. In other words, the first got got a +2 boost, the next one got a +4 (stacking with the previous +2, etc). All fine, but wouldn't you instead add up all threatening opponents, and add this bonus to all CMD's, not +2 stacking?

    You aren't avoiding each AoO, one at a time, you are avoiding them all at once. Therefore, using your above example, each goblin has a CMD of 28 (12 + 16 (for 8 opponents after the 1st), and a 33 for the one goblin he's trying to tumble through. The ogre's CMD would be a 34, since you aren't trying to tumble through him, just up to him, as you stated in your example.

    Anyway, this is the way I see the rule. Just my 2 cents.

    I see your point, but you may not be avoiding them all at once. Considering pc P running down a line of opponents O, at target T:

    P . . . . . . . . . . . T
    O1 O2 O3 O4 O5

    When P is running past O1, he is just getting started. At O2 he's a bit off balance from already avoiding O1, then more and more so as he moves down the line.

    Similarly, in the surrounded example, he's making a break for it in one direction, and reacting to them primarily, and each other around him less and less well. It also could easily be seen your way though, that all the surrounders hinder the attempt. I just prefer a consistent system that makes some sense, and also allows for partial success - the difference between 0 attacks and 8 attacks is pretty extreme.

    Official word on acrobaticing... tumbling through opponents square when failing the DC would be nice.


    William Sinclair wrote:

    Okay, this thread issue continues to come up in my game. Could we get an official call on this?

    If a player/npc fails an Acrobatics (tumble) check when moving through an opponents square, are they stopped, or do they get through suffering an AoO?

    I would also like an official call on this.


    Where are you getting that you make a check per opponent or per square you are trying to avoid AoOs from.

    The DC is to move through threatened squares. Plural implies that you make 1 check to move through multiple threatened squares, and the DC is based on the total number of AoOs opponents.

    Here is why you always succeed in moving through an opponent even if you fail the tumble check. If I am completely surrounded and I try to tumble out and fail and I don't move, then I wouldn't provoke any AoOs because I didn't move. The way I see it is you can always get past the opponent, it if just a lot harder to not provoke an AoO that way.

    Sovereign Court

    You make a roll against each opponent. In most case the CMD of your opponents will likely be the same, for example fighting a half dozen goblins. However in many cases each opponents CMD will be different and as the opponents CMD is the BASE DC you'd have to roll seperately against each.

    For example a rogue 5 (dex 18) with max ranks in Acrobatics is +12. You face a pair of goblins (CMD 12), an ogre (CMD 18), and a evil Cleric (CMD 14) in a 20 ft wide x 30ft long room.

    In this example the ogre is to your left fighting your Paladin buddy and the two goblins are lined up right next to it blocking your path to the Cleric at the back of the room.

    xxCx
    xxxx
    xxxx
    ooxx
    oogg
    PxxR

    To tumble through the goblin in front of you a DC 17 Acrobatics check is needed. To avoid the AoO from the other goblin however is only a DC 14 (CMD 12+2), to avoid the Ogres AoO its DC 22 (CMD 18+4). You want to move next to the Cleric and out of the Ogres Reach so you must also tumble through his threatened squares DC 20 (CMD 14+6). It's going to take a double move to do it as your movement is half speed (unless you want to up the DC's by 10!)...

    Rogue Acrobatics checks:
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (12) + 12 = 24
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (17) + 12 = 29
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (18) + 12 = 30
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (17) + 12 = 29

    In this case you make all the checks easily (thank you Paizo Dice roller!) and get next to the Evil Cleric!

    The DC's are so vastly different that you'd have to make several or one botched roll would result in Attacks of Opportunity from every creature that threatens you! It has to be one roll per opponent.

    --Vrock n Roll!


    King of Vrock wrote:

    You make a roll against each opponent. In most case the CMD of your opponents will likely be the same, for example fighting a half dozen goblins. However in many cases each opponents CMD will be different and as the opponents CMD is the BASE DC you'd have to roll seperately against each.

    For example a rogue 5 (dex 18) with max ranks in Acrobatics is +12. You face a pair of goblins (CMD 12), an ogre (CMD 18), and a evil Cleric (CMD 14) in a 20 ft wide x 30ft long room.

    In this example the ogre is to your left fighting your Paladin buddy and the two goblins are lined up right next to it blocking your path to the Cleric at the back of the room.

    xxCx
    xxxx
    xxxx
    ooxx
    oogg
    PxxR

    To tumble through the goblin in front of you a DC 17 Acrobatics check is needed. To avoid the AoO from the other goblin however is only a DC 14 (CMD 12+2), to avoid the Ogres AoO its DC 22 (CMD 18+4). You want to move next to the Cleric and out of the Ogres Reach so you must also tumble through his threatened squares DC 20 (CMD 14+6). It's going to take a double move to do it as your movement is half speed (unless you want to up the DC's by 10!)...

    Rogue Acrobatics checks:
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (12) + 12 = 24
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (17) + 12 = 29
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (18) + 12 = 30
    1d20 + 12 &#8658; (17) + 12 = 29

    In this case you make all the checks easily (thank you Paizo Dice roller!) and get next to the Evil Cleric!

    The DC's are so vastly different that you'd have to make several or one botched roll would result in Attacks of Opportunity from every creature that threatens you! It has to be one roll per opponent.

    --Vrock n Roll!

    But the tumble is a single action. One action, one roll, then check that single roll against all of the DCs. Making it multiple rolls actually makes it harder, because you are more likely to have one of more botched rolls, and it negates luck based abilities that let you reroll botched rolls because of the shear number of rolls you have to make.

    Paizo Employee Creative Director

    5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
    Krisam wrote:
    William Sinclair wrote:

    Okay, this thread issue continues to come up in my game. Could we get an official call on this?

    If a player/npc fails an Acrobatics (tumble) check when moving through an opponents square, are they stopped, or do they get through suffering an AoO?

    I would also like an official call on this.

    If you fail an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's square, you stop in the square you were left to make the attempt to go through that creature's square and your movement for that turn ends. If that square is occupied (say, you ran through three wererats in a narrow tunnel only to fail on the fourth), you fall prone in that square.

    If you have any more move actions left in a turn, you could try again, of course.

    Sovereign Court

    Charender wrote:
    But the tumble is a single action. One action, one roll, then check that single roll against all of the DCs. Making it multiple rolls actually makes it harder, because you are more likely to have one of more botched rolls, and it negates luck based abilities that let you reroll botched rolls because of the shear number of rolls you have to make.

    If you run through a 30 foot long 5 foot wide hallway with traps every square would you roll a single Reflex save for the whole movement or six??? Using acrobatics is no different.

    A Greater TWF'er with 6 attacks and a luck reroll (1/d) is surrounded by foes has to make an attack roll against each foe.

    If you miss or fail a check then you use a reroll, or just suck it up and take the hit. Decisions, decisions...

    --Vrock & Roll the Bones!


    King of Vrock wrote:
    Charender wrote:
    But the tumble is a single action. One action, one roll, then check that single roll against all of the DCs. Making it multiple rolls actually makes it harder, because you are more likely to have one of more botched rolls, and it negates luck based abilities that let you reroll botched rolls because of the shear number of rolls you have to make.

    If you run through a 30 foot long 5 foot wide hallway with traps every square would you roll a single Reflex save for the whole movement or six??? Using acrobatics is no different.

    A Greater TWF'er with 6 attacks and a luck reroll (1/d) is surrounded by foes has to make an attack roll against each foe.

    If you miss or fail a check then you use a reroll, or just suck it up and take the hit. Decisions, decisions...

    --Vrock & Roll the Bones!

    Ok, by that logic, I should have to make a tumble check for every square I move through for every creature that threatens that square. Obviously tumbling is different than setting off traps or having multiple attacks.


    Wow, Majuba, that's a really great way to run things. Thanks!

    Sovereign Court

    No you only make one check per creature, just as you make one save per trap, or one roll per attack. The limits on AoO's preclude making a roll for every square, but you have to beat the modified CMD of each creature you pass or pass through.

    You have a far better chance by making multiple rolls than only one, because if you fail horribly on one roll you could take 8 AoO's. But if you only botch a single roll of many you take a single AoO. Obviously if you're using Acrobatics to escape a ring of foes you have the score to do it reliably in general.

    Think about it. You are surrounded by 8 goblins CMD 12. You're that 5th level rogue with a +12 check and you attempt to escape the ring of foes. In your method if you roll a nat 1 you don't go anywhere AND you provoke from all 8 goblins. In my method the rogue goes nowhere and provokes from the first goblin only, but I have to roll 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 to keep from getting hit by the rest. Far, far better chances to succeed than not.

    Note that by attempting the Acrobatics to pass through you initiate a move action that provokes if you fail from ALL creatures that threaten you. In for a penny, in for a pound. Your move action is done if you fail.

    --Vrocking Horse


    King of Vrock wrote:

    No you only make one check per creature, just as you make one save per trap, or one roll per attack. The limits on AoO's preclude making a roll for every square, but you have to beat the modified CMD of each creature you pass or pass through.

    You have a far better chance by making multiple rolls than only one, because if you fail horribly on one roll you could take 8 AoO's. But if you only botch a single roll of many you take a single AoO. Obviously if you're using Acrobatics to escape a ring of foes you have the score to do it reliably in general.

    Think about it. You are surrounded by 8 goblins CMD 12. You're that 5th level rogue with a +12 check and you attempt to escape the ring of foes. In your method if you roll a nat 1 you don't go anywhere AND you provoke from all 8 goblins. In my method the rogue goes nowhere and provokes from the first goblin only, but I have to roll 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 to keep from getting hit by the rest. Far, far better chances to succeed than not.

    Note that by attempting the Acrobatics to pass through you initiate a move action that provokes if you fail from ALL creatures that threaten you. In for a penny, in for a pound. Your move action is done if you fail.

    --Vrocking Horse

    No, you method will likely result in less AoO, but they are almost certain to fail.

    rogue with a +12, 8 goblins CMD 12, your method you have to make 8 checks at 17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31. So the rogue needs to roll a 5,7,9,11,13,15,17, and 19 or better. He has about a 1 in 2500 chance of making all 8 rolls.

    My way he makes 1 roll against a 31. So he needs a 19 or better, 1 in 10 chance to succeed.

    Sovereign Court

    Charender wrote:


    No, you method will likely result in less AoO, but they are almost certain to fail.

    rogue with a +12, 8 goblins CMD 12, your method you have to make 8 checks at 17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31. So the rogue needs to roll a 5,7,9,11,13,15,17, and 19 or better. He has about a 1 in 2500 chance of making all 8 rolls.

    My way he makes 1 roll against a 31. So he needs a 19 or better, 1 in 10 chance to succeed.

    No the Rogue has to beat DC 17 against the first goblin only (5+CMD) to tumble through. The rest are tumbling past which means the first DC is 14, then 16, etc. Meaning to fully escape you have to roll:

    5, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14... Not that hard at all to avoid most of those AoO's. (my numbers above were off, but still my method is essentially better than yours)

    With your methods the Rogue's gonna eat 8 AoO's is he fails one roll. My way you have more than a 50% chance of not getting attacked against SIX goblins. He might flub the last two, but it's not likely.

    --Vrock N' Roll


    2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

    I see some officials weighing on this subject. Is anything gonna be posted in FAQ and thus become definative.

    I see some entry regarding tumbling/acrobatics. Since after three printings they have not changed anything regarding all this.

    According to the Core book (regarding movement through threatened DC = CMD and occupied square +5 CMD = DC) This is what I find.

    The Asterisk indicates under the acrobatics skill table, that the value applies to the Attacks of Opportunities. Extra opponants give a +2 to the DC.

    Through the square? sliding past someone, under there legs, flipping over? penalty says +5 already to the DC

    It says nowhere that you Stop movement under the skill entry, and it provides nothing about moving you back to a LEGAL sqaure.

    It does say under movement 190s that you can't enter a enemy square, and spells out why, but scanning down is says a TRAINED person can TUMBLE through, and a person can Overun the occupying foe.

    It does say TRAINED people can do this.... so You need 1 rank at least to try and move through using Acrobatics (without provoking AofOs?)

    So what if your are UNTRAINED? thats the next question are you actually precluded from moving through the occupied square or threatened square for that matter? I would say NO you can't. Since you need to be TRAINED to do it. You will have to OVERUN instead.

    You are penalized with Half your Movement unless you add 10

    There is a Feat called "Stand Still" that that allows you to STOP someone from moving through your squares (for the whole movement)

    Some have suggested in some place, you are dropped prone from the successfull AofO, I guess unless they trip you. WHICH is how a person without the feat "Stand Still" can stop a person. Trip em, they need a whole movement to stand up again.

    The notion that IF you end movement in a occupied square is Moot, since you are trying to get to an UNoccupied square, on completion of the movement.

    The notion that the square is considered hampered terrain under the obstacles entry is not explicit under acrobatics/tumble. It simply says your Movement is halved, not halved TWICE. Obstacles are everything else.

    As far as I know you have to be actually be MOVING to provoke the AofO, so you have to actually be moving through the square. If you don't succeed, as the AofOs are defined, it prevents the action (movement) from taking place. Which is awkward since you didn't actually succeed in moving. SO you must actually be moving to provoke them. So the only question is... Did you get hit in the process? that's what I THINK the DC only defines.

    I think the text represents exactly what it says. You shouldn't be forced back or stopped cold unless the opponant CAN stop you.... which the feat "Stand Still" clearly allows you to do.

    There are already enough penalties to this to make the tactic hard to perform without getting hit.

    And enough provisions for the player to stop a person if they don't want someone moving past them, such as through a trip attack.

    Suggested errata under the MOVEMENT section and under the Acrobatics skill entry.

    "The person moving is not stoppped in his movement unless the opponant attempts to stop him, via a trip maneuver (from the AofO) or through the use of a feat or ability."

    or addeded to the astrisk section a tiny clarification can be had.

    "movement is not stopped"

    Just my ramblings.... go ahead and poke at em.


    Although under the Movement and tactics area it says "attempt" to tumble. Does that imply you will fail. Some say that is the word that indicates you need a "successful" check to move through occupied or threatened squares. But again it points us to acrobatics skill (trained) despite acrobatics being able to be used untrained, the table says the DC is for avoiding AofOs and there is no entry for failure.

    Imagine this. Take that you might have uber movement. You have 50 guys in a straight line in front of you in a five foot corridor. Ignore the half speed (some ability). You start moving through squares (5+cmd for each opponent with +2 escalting for each extra you have to pass) you get 5 square into the movement and you fail the acrobatics check. Now some are saying that you get booted to the closest or last legal square. Which is 25 feet away. That's screwed up. So I think you HAVE to move through no matter what even if you suffer failure and get the AofO. If you die you fall prone in the square and are helpless. And you don't break the rule for occupying an enemy square.

    Typed from mobile phone. Forgive errors

    Shadow Lodge

    So... this is answered in the hard to find FAQ.
    Jason on Tumbling

    FAQ wrote:

    How does Acrobatics (Core Rulebook, page 87) work when you use it to avoid attacks of opportunity? When do you make checks? How many do you make?

    Acrobatics allows you to make checks to move through the threatened area of foes without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must make a check the moment you attempt to leave a square threatened by an enemy, but only once per foe. The DC (which is based of the Combat Maneuver Defense of each foe), increases by +2 for each foe after the first in one round. The DC also increases by +5 if you attempt to move through a foe. In the case of moving out of the threatened square of two foes at the same time, the moving character decides which check to make first.

    For example, a rogue is flanked by a meek goblin and a terrifying antipaladin. The rogue move away from both of them, provoking an attack of opportunity from both, but uses Acrobatics to attempt to negate them. She must move at half speed while threatened by these foes and can choose which to check against first. If she fails a check, she provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe. If she makes it, she does not provoke from moving through that foe's threatened space this turn.

    So if you are surrounded you make 8 checks, one at +5 for the initial creature and 7 more for attacks of opportunity (you can reduce it to 5 more if you do a withdraw action). You get to pick the order you make the checks in so I would suggest you take the initial tumble through a creatures square first, if you do that then it looks like this:

  • To tumble through first creatures space: DC = creatures CMD+5
  • Avoid AoO 1: Second creatures CMD +2
  • Avoid AoO 2: Third creatures CMD +4
  • Avoid AoO 3: Third creatures CMD +6
  • Avoid AoO 4: Third creatures CMD +8
  • etc...

    Yeap... lots and lots of rolls.

    Edit: This is more or less what Majuba suggests but Jason seems to suggest a distinct check(roll) for each creature.

  • Shadow Lodge

    James Jacobs wrote:

    If you fail an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's square, you stop in the square you were left to make the attempt to go through that creature's square and your movement for that turn ends. If that square is occupied (say, you ran through three wererats in a narrow tunnel only to fail on the fourth), you fall prone in that square.

    If you have any more move actions left in a turn, you could try again, of course.

    This question is asked a lot and deserves a place in the FAQ.

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