Spells and abilities ruining monster tactics


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I love how some monsters have tactics other than simply "beat the enemy until it stops moving" but when do such monsters ever get to actually use such tactics? Take the Bone Devil for example. It's perfect for misdirection and hit-and-run tactics (attack then quickened invisibility. Use Major Image to pull away the melee characters, slaughter the spellcasters and archers who think they're safely out of harms way, use greater teleport and quickened invisibility to get to safety if needed. Etc). But a simple See Invisibility spell (or any of the many spells that allow characters to see invisible creatures) and/or a paladin's detect evil ability completely ruins all these tactics and turns the bone devil into just another "beat the enemy until it stops moving" monster. So, how do you allow these monsters to use all their cool abilities and tactics without completely nerfing the characters?


Thats when you have to consider the intelligence of the creature in regards to using its environment, minions, etc. Because in a environment, without any type of physical obstructions or other distractions, your statements hit home. You also have to consider in a devil eat devil world with the same magic available, they would have learned how to be sinister without the use of magic.

So if they get summoned into a foreign environment with the appropriate precations taken, they should know when the game is up.


In your example (which is a great one btw), you have to take into account the chances of the party actually preparing and using the counters.. See Invisible lasts 10 min/level.. Is your party really going to have that active all the time? A paladin's Detect Evil is in the same boat. Sure, it can be recast without using spell slots, but it only lasts up to 10 min/level before it has to be recast as a standard action, something most characters don't ever want to give up.

I suppose if someone in the party made goggles out of two Gems of True Seeing and a leather band, you're pretty much hosed trying to use most trickster monsters, but otherwise it all boils down to how much you let your players metagame. I think it would take a pretty ridiculous knowledge roll for a character to have such intimate understanding of that particular creature, its abilities, and tactics.


I dont really have any of those troubles, sure sometimes they get the best of a creatures tactics, but most of the time they dont..

a one on 'one party' encounter is never really a good challenge even with elaborate tactics, a single creature needs something to level the playing field.

Also do take into account they know what powerful adventurers are capable off, a typical devil with high intelligence seen all the tricks and more.

Also, I suspect your players might play a bit outside their characters.. it's ok, just even the field a bit and make small variations on most creatures, give your bonedevil a few custom feats maybe a class level, some summoned minions that might add little to the CR but pay off rather well.


To give a more definite example, I'm replacing the monsters in The Hidden Beast encounter in Pathfinder #6. The Hidden Beast will now be a unique creature, but for stats I'm going to use a Huge, 19HD bone devil with the vampire template. The vampire skulks with 6 rogue levels will become vampire morlocks with 5 rogue levels. (I'm converting the campaign to Pathfinder.) If necessary the Hidden Beast can summon in another bone devil, although it only has a 35% chance of success. I'm hoping that the PCs will be kept so busy they wont have time to concentrate on things like detect evil and see invisible/true seeing. Hopefully it'll be a really challenging encounter.


Comes down to a play style I think. How much of reality do you use when you play and when you set out your combats what do you do with your terrain. Do you use physical obstacles when you create your encounters or is it a flat empty space? Ambush creatures would teleport behind a rock/tree/whatever instead of somewhere out in the open I would think. Even if invisible I would expect smart ambushers to show caution. If they appear behind the obstacle they have some sort of cover to add to their Stealth check, which you'll have made in advance against their perception check made in advance. For this stuff we normally have players roll a d20 half a dozen times and the DM keep a record of it behind his screen. Rolls a d6 at the start of the session to determine where he starts using the d20. I.e. rolls a 3 so he starts with the third result and goes down the list as required.

If you treat characters as if they have 360 degree vision then yeah you're restricting the ambush strategies. The rules might not specify anything about the facing and perception checks, but I think as a DM you need to factor in these things. I'd rule that unless players state they're constantly checking their rear and flanks they don't automatically see things unless its something massive. Pretty much take a commonsense approach. A giant 60ft away on your flank is noticable, but a tiny creature would require a perception check. It works for and against the players after all as they can use this to their advantage.

Going on your example with the battle for my mind if a battle has casters at the back they are focused on whats in front of them and get a perception check to notice that a threat is coming in from the rear. I'd give the ambusher a bonus because of the distraction of battle unless the characters at the rear state that they are watching for ambush behind them. A smart creature might wait until the caster is starting to cast before charging in.

Detect Evil is a cone too, so any smart creature who recognises a Paladin would know about the ability to detect evil and keep their distance until the Paladin has turned around or moved on. Plus if they can identify that a combatant is a caster then they dhow appropriate caution knowing that the caster would have some sort of way to see invisibility.


BQ wrote:
If you treat characters as if they have 360 degree vision then yeah you're restricting the ambush strategies. The rules might not specify anything about the facing and perception checks, but I think as a DM you need to factor in these things.

Sure, if your answer is, "Gosh I just want to make up all the rules" then this is a wonderful solution.

Somehow I don't think I should have to cheat and break the rules in order to make an encounter playable.


nexusphere wrote:
BQ wrote:
If you treat characters as if they have 360 degree vision then yeah you're restricting the ambush strategies. The rules might not specify anything about the facing and perception checks, but I think as a DM you need to factor in these things.

Sure, if your answer is, "Gosh I just want to make up all the rules" then this is a wonderful solution.

Somehow I don't think I should have to cheat and break the rules in order to make an encounter playable.

Well the stealth rules are broken already, your stealthy creatures can't attempt to hide if they're observing one another with their senses.

You kind of have to make up new rules when no rogues can hide due to single-cell organisms in the game world "observing" them.

Grand Lodge

Heh, for me it depends on how much time I have to prepare for the encounter -- not so much on how intelligent the NPC is. Don't get me wrong, I won't design dumb monsters (the Chaotic ones) to use inappropriately good tactics, but my intelligent NPCs (the Lawful ones) are typically only as brilliant as I have time to make them.


nexusphere wrote:
BQ wrote:
If you treat characters as if they have 360 degree vision then yeah you're restricting the ambush strategies. The rules might not specify anything about the facing and perception checks, but I think as a DM you need to factor in these things.

Sure, if your answer is, "Gosh I just want to make up all the rules" then this is a wonderful solution.

Somehow I don't think I should have to cheat and break the rules in order to make an encounter playable.

I don't see it as cheating, just factoring in reality. We have two eyes and they are in the front of our heads so unless a player is actively checking the rear I don't see why it should be treated as if whats happening right in front of them. If it feels deceptive to you then bring it up with your players that you are going to be ruling it in this manner so they know. Remember they can use this to their advantage too when they attempt to sneak up on creatures.

At the end of the day its a game thats about fun so its up to the DM as just how strict you want to make your rulings and factor in reality.


simce when are chaotic beings automatically dumb and lawful ones automatically smart??

Lawful neutral is very capable of stubborn foolishness.

Chaotics are by nature more adaptable.

Alignment has a lot more to do with point of view than intelligence.

Sovereign Court

Well "Hit and Run" tactics should work fine, it's just that you need to actually have the monsters run and have combat end for that to be effective. You see a lot of "Hit and Become Harder to See" and not so much Hit and Run.


In the case of the bone devil he sets the fight. If it isn't on his terms he leaves. Invis teleport in full attack teleport regroup and come back when buffs are off. He's smart and unless overwhelmed can controp tgings.


Paladin Detect Evil wrote:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

So you can't use Detect Evil like radar. You need to specify something you can already see (or at least get the right square) and it will tell you if it's evil. So I don't think it would help very much against the Bone Devil.

Note that the paladin's ability is not quite like the spell, which does work rather more like the radar, though you'd need to scan the area for 3 rounds to locate the devil.


Apropos of the above, I note that Detect Evil and Detect Chaos aren't on the paladin's spell list, so he can't even create or use a wand or scroll to do it. Seems like an oversight.


Mojorat wrote:
In the case of the bone devil he sets the fight. If it isn't on his terms he leaves. Invis teleport in full attack teleport regroup and come back when buffs are off. He's smart and unless overwhelmed can controp tgings.

Then Invis, hang back half a mile, wait for the party to stop for the night, teleport, full attack, teleport, repeat.


Mudfoot wrote:
Paladin Detect Evil wrote:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet

So you can't use Detect Evil like radar. You need to specify something you can already see (or at least get the right square) and it will tell you if it's evil. So I don't think it would help very much against the Bone Devil.

I'm pretty confident that Paladins can "use detect evil, as the spell" at will, AND furthermore quickly evaluate a single target with a move action.

As for invisible creatures, I agree, using Detect spells to find them should be plan F, not plan A.

Silver Crusade

Man. Osyluth/Bone Devils are like every single outsider with teleport, they're a nightmare.

The hit and run is less 'invisibility, and meander around where PCs can beat me up' and more 'be invisible, whack a dude, step away, zot away, grab some healing, lather, rinse, repeat.'

Stuff like see invis and dimensional anchor don't ruin these guys, they make them fightable.

I had players fighting a few erinyes once, by the time they closed to melee range, they'd teleport away, heal up, and come back. The only trick is that most fiends' psychic bs only extends out to 100ft, so they have to guess where the heroes might be.

Phase spiders work similarly.

In a more generic way, everything should have a counter. I have more of an issue with the rocket tag approach some monsters have (the kill me before I kill you damage dealing type) then ones like this.


Shad0wdrag0n wrote:
I love how some monsters have tactics other than simply "beat the enemy until it stops moving" but when do such monsters ever get to actually use such tactics? Take the Bone Devil for example. It's perfect for misdirection and hit-and-run tactics (attack then quickened invisibility. Use Major Image to pull away the melee characters, slaughter the spellcasters and archers who think they're safely out of harms way, use greater teleport and quickened invisibility to get to safety if needed. Etc). But a simple See Invisibility spell (or any of the many spells that allow characters to see invisible creatures) and/or a paladin's detect evil ability completely ruins all these tactics and turns the bone devil into just another "beat the enemy until it stops moving" monster. So, how do you allow these monsters to use all their cool abilities and tactics without completely nerfing the characters?

There's two ways of handling that.

1) Lots of bone devils. If a wizard casts See Invisibility, only the wizard can see the bone devils! (Invisibility Purge is sort of like a party buff, but very short-ranged.) Perhaps the wizard can see the bone devil teleport right behind it, but it doesn't matter, because said bone devil is now right in it's face... and another bone devil is chowing down on the fighter, a third is hunting down the rogue, etc.

2) Use bone devils as part of the team. Pair it with gruntier devils, and maybe some casting devils too.


Pupsocket wrote:
I'm pretty confident that Paladins can "use detect evil, as the spell" at will, AND furthermore quickly evaluate a single target with a move action.

Your confidence is misplaced.

Detect Evil.

*looking right at a devil*

Round 1: I sense Evil in the vacinity!

Round 2: There is one Evil creature nearby, and it is strongly Evil indeed!

Round 3: There! *points at the devil* There is the Evil creature!

(The rest of the party groan and roll their eyes.)

Luckily the paladin ability isn't exactly like the spell. :p


"Detect Evil" has its uses, but ANY intelligent evil being/outsider can usually spot the shiny tin man waving his hand around and have experience or knowledge enough to know what he's doing.

For one, all it takes is a potion of Misdirection, or a Ring Of Mind Shielding (I love that item and so cheap too) to foil him, unless your fortunate enough to be a spell aster yourself. And as others have said the Bone Devil would pick a fight on its terms - if it got detected somehow beforehand it could teleport away and prepare better the following time around (a potion or scroll of Alter Self and/or Misdirection perhaps next time around).

Devils are cunning creatures (I personally love them) - there's a good reason why even though Demons outnumber them 100's to 1 that they hold their ground - they are masterminds of strategy and cunning foes.

Don't be afraid to have the Bone Devil try to kill them when they least expect it - nothing like catching someone with their guard down.

But "Detecf Evil" is a sweet deal ability nonetheless but states specifically it "as a move action, can comcentrate on a single item or individual within 60ft" which means the Paladin CANNOT use it to locate a hidden evil enemy in an area, it only allows him to discern if something he can directly see is evil or not.


It is all part of the challenge rating.

The example Bone Devil applying those tactics will make a APL<CR group pull out their hair in frustration and run away, or maybe win with a lucky hit and some tactical thought. Either way it ends up as a leaning curve fight for the characters.

Now the party has gained two levels, invested some assets into See Invisibility wands/potions after the embarrassing beat down. Maybe the wizard was so affected that he always keeps dimensional anchor memorized.

And the fight becomes a trivial beat down, party celebrates and feels a sense of accomplishment and growth. Now you fish through the next few CRs for the next interesting monster to repeat the process over again. Once they have learnt the lesson of invisibility, other than a few encounters to let them stretch their new found skill, it is time to move on the the next specialist fight, maybe the grapple monster.

So back to the first question. Those monsters get to use those tactics when they have the CR advantage, before the group has the resources and knowledge to counter properly.


Lord Pendragon wrote:
Pupsocket wrote:
I'm pretty confident that Paladins can "use detect evil, as the spell" at will, AND furthermore quickly evaluate a single target with a move action.
Your confidence is misplaced.

I disagree, I read it just like Pupsocket.

Paladin's can use Detect Evil (exactly as the spell description with concentration etc) at will.

They can ALSO use Detect Evil (in a special paladin-only way) to target a specific creature they can see (note: this will not work on an invisible target) to get information more quickly.

They can do it either way... just the former method is not required most of the time.

Lord Pendragon wrote:


Detect Evil.

*looking right at a devil*

Round 1: I sense Evil in the vacinity!

Round 2: There is one Evil creature nearby, and it is strongly Evil indeed!

Round 3: There! *points at the devil* There is the Evil creature!

(The rest of the party groan and roll their eyes.)

Luckily the paladin ability isn't exactly like the spell. :p

This is exactly how the paladin would have to do it, if the devil were invisible (except he'd be pointing at an empty square rather then the devil itself at the end of it, of course, as its still invisible).

And if you rule that the paladin can't do the general Detect Evil, and only its 'specific target' version, than it can't even do this, as it can't target what it can't see.

Detect Evil would not be that helpful vs an invisible devil.

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