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A straightforward question, this. If you give a monster more Hit Dice or class levels, does it gain a stat point every 4 levels like a character does? Or is this effectively replaced by the 'advanced' monster template? I've had a look through the Bestiary, but I can't find it mentioned anywhere.
Thanks for the answers!
A monster should gain a stat increase every 4 levels or hitdice as normal.
Yup, every fourth HD would give an ability boost to one stat. Note that an ability increases the monster would have gotten for prior HD that it already has are essentially factored in already. So taking a monster with 6 racial HD to 8th would give it a single ability point.
It gets a bit different when adding class levels in a PC class though. Note that a monster will get an adjustment to its ability scores of +4, +4 ,+2, +2, +0, -2, assigned to whatever stats best benefit the creature.
In essence any NPC or monster with levels in a PC class gets to use the 'elite array' of ability stats. Most monsters and NPCs are based on the array of stats of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. The elite array is based on 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
So for example, taking a monster from the bestiary at random, we'll look at the Minotaur. It has stats of 19, 10, 15, 7, 10, 8. Since this is based on the normal array, we can see that the Minotaur is getting a racial boost to ability scores of +8, +0, +4, -4, +0, -2 laid over the normal array of 11, 10 ,11, 11, 10, 10.
We decide to give the Minotaur a level in Fighter. Since its getting its first PC class level, it gets the ability boost to take it to the elite array. We'll add them as follows: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha -2. And we'll end up with final ability stats of 23, 12, 19, 7, 12, 6. We'll give it an additional d10 HD and a fighter feat, as well as another general feat for getting its 7th HD. We'll relcalculate its BAB/CMB/CMD, hit points, saves, and skills based on the new fighter level and the new ability score adjustments. This should boost its CR by 1, but possibly 2; you'll have to kind of determine this on your own whether its a CR 5 or 6 monster now.
(Note that the CR for class levels in a PC class is generally Class level -1. But the ability boost of going to the elite array is worth at least a +1 boost itself. Hence generally adding a single level in a PC class is worth a +1. Although it could result in a +2 for some monsters that benefit greatly from a class level and ability boost.)
Now lets say we want to add a second level of fighter to our Minotaur Fighter 1. We'll give him another d10 HD and this will give him 8 total HD. So he'll get another ability point boost for his eight HD. And he'll get another fighter feat for 2nd level fighter.
It can get a little confusing at times adding PC class levels to monsters. Sometimes its best to just break the mob down to its base normal array and adjust scores appropriately, essentially rebuilding the monster from the ground up. Then figuring out the CR is a little bit of an art, but just kind of guess how much tougher the monster is with the new class level and ability boost. Rule of thumb is two of the same monster is equal to a +2 CR in an encounter, so if the new monster with a class level is about as much threat as two of the same monster without class levels, then its a +2 CR; if not then just go with +1.
All additional class levels after the first would generally be a +1 CR adjustment, unless its a class that doesn't really help the monster much (such as giving sorcerer levels to our minotaur); in that case its generally a +1 CR for every two class levels.
Also keep in mind that it's suggest that a 50% increase in monster HD should come with an increase in size with the modifications to stats as appropriate. Thus a 15 HD dire bear should be advanced from Large to Huge giving the creature +8 to strength, -2 to dex, +4 to Con and +3 to Natural Armor on top of the +1 to any stat moving from 8 to 12 HD. You'd give the creature additional feats and skills, advance it's BaB, increase the damage on the claws and advance it's CR to 10 ( Table 1-2 of the Building Monsters appendix in the Bestiary indicates that a 15 HD animal is a CR 10 monster).
It can definitely be a time consuming process which is why they went with the giant simple template in the bestiary which is a lot quicker to configure.
Additional notes about adding class levels, table 2-4 and appendix 13 provide a good outline of when a class level should be considered key or not. Key levels should result in a 1 for 1 increase in CR. Non-linked classes should be at a 1 for 2 deal. Monsters with no role are probably not intelligent enough to be advanced via class levels and should resort to monster HD.
Caveats to the above should should be noted.
1)In my personal experience once class levels = the racial HD of a monster from that point on the class levels become key.
For example a Succubus Sorceror 10 would probably be a CR 13 encounter (Base CR 7 + 4 CR for 8 non-key sorceror levels + 2 CR for 2 key sorceror levels). This works well for when the class levels are more of a challenge than the base creature abilities.
2) After a certain point in time (generally after CR 15 or 16) additional racial HD are almost always better than advancing in a key class. At that point in time a bunch of class levels invariably makes the monster a higher CR than it really is. For instance a Horned Devil with 8 levels of fighter would be a CR 24 encounter whereas a Horned Devil with 8 outsider HD is larger (with everything that comes with that) and is probably not much more than a CR 18 encounter. The Horned Devil Fighter 8 probably has more tricks than the 23 HD Horned Fiend but the difference in Challenge is alot smaller than it would be otherwise. I'd probably consider the Horned Devil Fighter 8 a CR 20 encounter (roughly comparable to a pit fiend).
The best thing to do is compare you freshly statted creation with a monster of equal CR. If it looks and feels right go for it, otherwise change the CR or add more levels (don't forget that leveled monsters get equipment, this can alter things drastically).
Creative Director
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The best thing to do is compare you freshly statted creation with a monster of equal CR. If it looks and feels right go for it, otherwise change the CR or add more levels (don't forget that leveled monsters get equipment, this can alter things drastically).
This.
CR calculations can only take you so far. After you change or create a monster, it's a good idea to go back to Table 1–1 and check its scores against the expected values for that CR. It's cool if the monster is notably over ONE of those values (since it's okay if monsters excel in one area), but you shouldn't treat the CR calculations and suggested changes as writ-in-stone. Especially since that way lies the road to GM abuse, where you number crunch monsters to get the best possible stats using the least "expensive" advancement options. That's basically cheating.
The best thing to do is compare you freshly statted creation with a monster of equal CR. If it looks and feels right go for it, otherwise change the CR or add more levels (don't forget that leveled monsters get equipment, this can alter things drastically).
Hey Shane, you have the same last name as me!
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A related question to my original one - Do monsters get the '-1 CR for PC class levels' applied to them, or is that only for creatures without racial hit dice? Do monsters have itt replaced with the key/non-key role differentiation? Where is the 'CR -1 for PC levels' actually mentioned? And do leveled monsters have a 'favoured class'? (My gut says no on that one, but I want to be sure.)
- Only example I can find at the moment of a leveled monster is the skeletal champion in Crypt of the Everflame - he's CR 2 base with 2 fighter levels, and is listed as CR 4. Looks like no -1 CR for him. I can't check Council of Thieves because I'm curently playing in it, and want to avoid spoilers.
Generally no, adding a keyed PC class should be +1 per level of the class. The ability boost for gaining the elite array is enough to counter the Cr-1 and make it a straight CR+0.
But don't let the CR formulas tie you down. Always double check the final monster to see how it stacks up against the CR charts in the back of the bestiary, and against other monsters. The CR formulas are more guidelines than hard rules, so always do a final check to determine CR.
Look at page 398 in the Core Rulebook, under "Adding NPCs." That gives the basis for the CR-1 for NPCs with heroic classes and CR-2 for NPCs with only nonheroic classes. It also says there that this only applies to creatures who don't get racial HD. For rules on adding class levels to creatures that do have racial HD you should look at page 296 in the Bestiary under "Adding Class Levels."
Any creature with class levels can have a favored class. So adding a level of fighter to a Minotaur would let him take fighter as his favored class and then get an extra hp or skill point. Its not clear to me whether non heroic classes (such as expert, aristocrat, etc) can be favored classes. Looking through some NPCs in Council of Thieves it looks like some of the NPCs got extra skills from favored class bonus and others did not, so I can't really tell. But its just an extra hp or skill point per class level, so it probably shouldn't affect CR at all whether a creature gets it or not.
Yup, every fourth HD would give an ability boost to one stat. Note that an ability increases the monster would have gotten for prior HD that it already has are essentially factored in already. So taking a monster with 6 racial HD to 8th would give it a single ability point.
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In essence any NPC or monster with levels in a PC class gets to use the 'elite array' of ability stats. Most monsters and NPCs are based on the array of stats of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. The elite array is based on 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
So for example, taking a monster from the bestiary at random, we'll look at the Minotaur. It has stats of 19, 10, 15, 7, 10, 8. Since this is based on the normal array, we can see that the Minotaur is getting a racial boost to ability scores of +8, +0, +4, -4, +0, -2 laid over the normal array of 11, 10 ,11, 11, 10, 10.
Since the minotaur has 6HD, wouldn't it have gotten an ability boost to one stat that is included in its starting stats? So that one point of its stats is NOT a racial boost, but a leveling/HD one?
Its factored in already to the racial/size adjustments.
And really, the only time it would be an issue is if you were taking a base creature with 4 or more HD and then REMOVING HD from it to where it drops below the next lower multiple of 4. (i.e. taking a 6 HD creature to 3 HD, or a 14 HD creature to 11 HD). Then yeah, you'd remove a point for the lost HD.
But when adding HD to the base creature (whether from class levels or racial HD) the ability point boosts for every 4 HD that the monster already has is already factored into its stats as part of its racial ability boosts.
You can double check this with any monster in the bestiary that has 4 or more HD and no class levels. Just take their base stats and find the difference between them and the normal ability array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 (these being applied to any ability in any order). You'll find that in order to reach the normal ability array, you'll have to add or subtract all even numbers from the monsters base stats. If the 4 HD ability boost were not a part of the monsters racial ability bonuses, then you'd expect to find one odd number in that bunch for any monster that would have received an odd number of such ability boosts.
Cool, thanks!
Right, that's what I figured. My question was if you wanted to strip a high CR monster down to its basics for some variant rebuilding, i.e. a charismatic minotaur instead of a strong one, how to find out where the "extra" ability point per 4 HD was put in. Your point about the even addition helps, but what about 8 HD creature that does NOT have two odd ability scores (and why would it, effectiveness wise)? Then you have an 8 HD creature where 2 points of one ability score were boosted by HD rather than racial bonuses. Any idea how to figure that out? I could just guesstimate (i.e., a minotaur probably drops his bonuses in Str, etc), but if there's a better method I'd love to hear it.
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Creative Director
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Technically, monsters with racial HD do not lose ability scores for HD reductions. Their HD scores show them as-is at their standard baseline. While they DO gain +1 to an ability score each time they gain enough HD to hit a number divisible by 4 (not by every 4 HD above their starting HD), they do not lose a +1 to an ability score for lowering their HD. Their ability scores just aren't built that way, after all. (And reducing a monster's HD is a kind of strange thing to do anyway...).
Technically, monsters with racial HD do not lose ability scores for HD reductions. Their HD scores show them as-is at their standard baseline. While they DO gain +1 to an ability score each time they gain enough HD to hit a number divisible by 4 (not by every 4 HD above their starting HD), they do not lose a +1 to an ability score for lowering their HD. Their ability scores just aren't built that way, after all. (And reducing a monster's HD is a kind of strange thing to do anyway...).
Right, I was less wanting to LOWER a monster's HD than figure out what variable went into raising it to the standard baseline.
For example, if I was making a Storm Giant who added sorcerer levels, I would assume that he (hopefully) was a more charismatic giant growing up than most of his race, and so of his 19 HD, would have liked the chance to switch his +4 to an ability score from, most likely, his Strength or Con, to his Cha.
So basically I'm trying to min/max a standard Bestiary monster into a unique one, which is partly done by adding the heroic stat bonuses when adding a PC class (so that I could do +4 Cha, -2 Str). I just wish I knew what was a racial bonus and what was from extra HD (which, admittedly, was only given on "monster as PC" monsters in the old 3.5 MMs).
Thats kinda what we're getting at. Taking a base monster from the bestiary, it has NO bonus due to extra HD. It would get it as it added HD, but any that it would have gotten for every 4th HD are already a factor of its race and size.
Now you are definitely free to adjust things as you like. If you want a Giant Sorcerer who has a little more Cha and a little less Str then you can certainly do that. Either via innate ability increases or through magic items. (Don't forget that your Giant Sorcerer should have some decent NPC gear).
The most important thing is to make sure that the final creature is given an appropriate CR.
While they DO gain +1 to an ability score each time they gain enough HD to hit a number divisible by 4 (not by every 4 HD above their starting HD), ...
Actually that is not what the Pathfinder RPG rules seem to say:
For every 4 additional Hit Dice gained by the monster, add 1 to one of its ability scores.
I think it is probably intended to work as James laid out, and it would make more sense if it does, but the actual rules say the exact opposite.
I encountered this possible change when starting work on the PCGen dataset for the Pathfinder Bestiary; a similar issue is present for creatures advanced with class levels. The rules say nothing about ability increases in this case, so one is led to assume it would work as laid out in the Table "Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses", i.e. every four levels, independent of previous racial hit dice.
I would very much like to see this clarified.