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I'm finding PF to be a lot more powerful then any D&D game I've played in the past. And the system got rid of the xp system for creating magic item, now it kinda like you have the money to make it done a few days later.
So 30% off for making aligned or a certain class usable and 10% off for attaching a skill to the item then they half the price of the item and that's the cost to create said item.So I made a Headband of INT,Wis,Cha item costing 144k for around 25k with no xp cost.
And another thing I have a Doppelganger 5 levels and Cleric 3 levels, Warshaper prestige lvl 2 at = 10th lvl with 140 Hit points.
That's bit crazy oh and a 39 AC
Well, if you're running a monty haul twink campaign...then yeah.
So...
You are a Doppleganger (4d10 hit dice) Advanced to 5 HD?
Cleric 3/Warshaper 2 (5d10+3d8+2d8) I assume this is the Warshaper PrC from the Complete Warrior, correct me if I'm wrong.
To have 140 hp. You would have to have a 20 constitution and rolled max HP every single level. A more likely scenario is a much higher constitution than that and more average rolls.
Which is it?
And...as a Cleric 3, since Warshaper doesn't give you any spellcasting abilities, how are you making a item that has a required Caster Level of 16 to create?
Please explain, I'm not following.
Wellll...uh, damn, OK, Mr. Fishy is on this, God help a fish.
The difference between 144k and 25k is a lot more than 40%, 50% of 144 is 72 thousand, Mr. Fishy hopes you just threw out numbers.
Two those discounts are one only unless your a book says different than mine. Its in the fine print in the back you have to really look. Mr. Fishy is serious about the fine print it's a foot note.
Mr. Fishy would also suggest an accounting of characters and judicious
stick beatings. You could have a munchkin problem, Mr. Fishy is sad to say the only way to stop munchkinism is to stay on the twink like a
barnacle on a rock.
And learn to count.
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I have a starting stat of 18 +2 con from Doppelganger,
WarShaper from Complete Warrior gave me at 2nd lvl +4 Str and +4 Con I put both of my 4th and 8th lvl points into con, and I have a item that boost it 2 points
And I have the toughness feat, and Improved Toughness feat Doppelganger 5th lvl only gives me 3HD
Doppelganger 3d8+33, plus Cleric 3d8+33, Warshaper 2d8+22.
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Wellll...uh, damn, OK, Mr. Fishy is on this, God help a fish.
The difference between 144k and 25k is a lot more than 40%, 50% of 144 is 72 thousand, Mr. Fishy hopes you just threw out numbers.
Two those discounts are one only unless your a book says different than mine. Its in the fine print in the back you have to really look. Mr. Fishy is serious about the fine print it's a foot note.
Mr. Fishy would also suggest an accounting of characters and judicious
stick beatings. You could have a munchkin problem, Mr. Fishy is sad to say the only way to stop munchkinism is to stay on the twink like a
barnacle on a rock.
Forgot to mention a another feat that lets you take 25% off the price, bring the total discount to 65%
Fair enough on the HP, but even if the HP rolls for the character are incredibly good...
I still fail to understand how a Caster Level 3 cleric can create an item that requires Caster Level 16.
Are there some House Rules involved somehow?
And being a 10th level character, you would have 5 feats, so at least one is Craft Wondrous Item, the other being this feat that gives an additional 25% off item creation costs (I assume one of the Crafting feats from Eberron?). With that, and the other discounts, your math would be correct. 25,200 gp to create the item. But see above question.
Since you also have Toughness and Improved Toughness, that leaves only 1 other feat left to your character. Such character builds are perfectly possible, if a player wants to focus the character on HP.
Basic counting mistakes irks Mr. Fishy. A feat worth 25% is a major ball drop, it caused Mr. Fishy to think that someone can count.
Feat aside the alignment/skill discount is a one only they aren't stackable a player tried that with a Fishy, Mr. Fishy made him show and found the foot note, maybe it was a mistake. The item in question also has a skill roll and a level requirement. It's in the book if the munchkin, uses a rule againist, smile and read the rule yourself. Then slap him for his insolence.
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Fair enough on the HP, but even if the HP rolls for the character are incredibly good...
I still fail to understand how a Caster Level 3 cleric can create an item that requires Caster Level 16.
Are there some House Rules involved somehow?
And being a 10th level character, you would have 5 feats, so at least one is Craft Wondrous Item, the other being this feat that gives an additional 25% off item creation costs (I assume one of the Crafting feats from Eberron?). With that, and the other discounts, your math would be correct. 25,200 gp to create the item. But see above question.
Since you also have Toughness and Improved Toughness, that leaves only 1 other feat left to your character. Such character builds are perfectly possible, if a player wants to focus the character on HP.
Two different characters
Another question, might we know what your stats are in entirety?
You already mentioned the +4 Str and +4 Con from Warshaper level 2. Fair enough. But what are the rest? And what method does your DM use for stats? Rolling? Point buy? Etc.
Basically though, here is the thing to remember, if your DM has very loose rules for how they let you create characters, then the game can hardly be overpowered. Especially if the DM lets you create characters that way.
Basically the DM is saying screw the rules, I'll allow it.
Wait until he kills the munchkin. Shirts torn, chests beaten, women lamentating...
Ah...
So the person who created the Headband of Mental Superiority is actually a level 16 spellcaster?
Its hardly overpowered to allow someone to create an item, if they have spent the feats on Item Crafting, for a lesser cost.
Do bear in mind though, the Pathfinder rules and the adjustments to the way items are crafted are not meant to be used with books like Eberron (which has multiple crafting feats to allow cheaper crafting of items).
Eberron is quite specifically a very high magic world, those feats are in that book to reflect that there are people who do nothing in the world but craft items for sale and profit.
That said, a character may certainly take such feats...but thats their choice.
Hell, just post the entire PC statblock. And then we can watch Mr. Fishy's gnashing of teeth.
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Two different charactersFair enough on the HP, but even if the HP rolls for the character are incredibly good...
I still fail to understand how a Caster Level 3 cleric can create an item that requires Caster Level 16.
Are there some House Rules involved somehow?
And being a 10th level character, you would have 5 feats, so at least one is Craft Wondrous Item, the other being this feat that gives an additional 25% off item creation costs (I assume one of the Crafting feats from Eberron?). With that, and the other discounts, your math would be correct. 25,200 gp to create the item. But see above question.
Since you also have Toughness and Improved Toughness, that leaves only 1 other feat left to your character. Such character builds are perfectly possible, if a player wants to focus the character on HP.
Thought it was 25,200 sounds about right, the feat I actually took was from Players guide to Faerun Magical Artisan if I would have knew about the eberron ones i probably would have went that route.
But I assume this Item Crafter is level 16 or above, right?
That was the big issue from your initial post and the confusion about your two character builds. The first post made it sound like you had your Doppleganger craft the Headband.
From what you've said since, thats not so. So...?
You have a level 16+ casting class character who made the item, correct?
Mr. Fishy eats munchkins and s@#*s power gamers, Mr. Fishy is a anti-munchkin. Any DM can say no or kill you, Mr. Fishy will make you sorry you wrote that bastard. Mr. Fishy is a fish hole with nothing better to do than chew on your character. Mr. Fishy isn't perfect and a few munchkins have gotten pass Mr. Fishy. Mr. Fishy hunted them down by the blood they left in the water.
;ousfghuuqwrbgbnbvnbuot4v 08qejqfjhfhgfn;kd89gf3 rf
(Mr. Fishy is gnawing on the key board.)
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But I assume this Item Crafter is level 16 or above, right?
That was the big issue from your initial post and the confusion about your two character builds. The first post made it sound like you had your Doppleganger craft the Headband.
From what you've said since, thats not so. So...?
You have a level 16+ casting class character who made the item, correct?
yes they were 16th and above
the stats were rolled by the DM and everyone had the same stats.
hold on to your chairs lol they are a bit high.
14
14
15
16
17
18any where you want them.
Let me be a bit more explicit. The feats, the skills, the gear, the whole shebang. :D As if you were providing for an online PbP and the DM needs to see your build.
Mr. Fishy eats munchkins and s&~*s power gamers, Mr. Fishy is a anti-munchkin. Any DM can say no or kill you, Mr. Fishy will make you sorry you wrote that bastard. Mr. Fishy is a fish hole with nothing better to do than chew on your character. Mr. Fishy isn't perfect and a few munchkins have gotten pass Mr. Fishy. Mr. Fishy hunted them down by the blood they left in the water.
;ousfghuuqwrbgbnbvnbuot4v 08qejqfjhfhgfn;kd89gf3 rf
(Mr. Fishy is gnawing on the key board.)
EDIT <tosses some munchkin chum into the frothing waters>
Frothing water
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It's been tough but I've been working with this DM to try to turn the game around some. I found I had to show him what could be done by doing it in game. So that I could get him to change his mind about some of this crap.
He says, the next game he runs it's going to be PF only so we can hope everything turns out ok.
Either way though, since your DM is mixing rules from the FR Campaign Setting (which is a 3.0) book and Pathfinder, don't be surprised if certain feats give your characters extra bonuses.
Couple of other notes,
1) Pathfinder in and of itself is not overpowered. Paizo has worked really hard to fix broken classes and to extensively playtest them. This obviously cannot account for every single permutation that exists in the game, but its about the best we can hope for.
2) Many of the WotC books have classes in them that are broken or overpowered. Especially some of the PrCs. A good notion is to look at a class and think "Would a particular type of character ever NOT take this class?"
The Warshaper PrC is a class ANY shapeshifter will take! Even just for the 1st level ability. Complete immunity to Stunning and Critical Hits!
The Abjurant Champion PrC is another. Not necessarily because its incredibly overpowered, but it offers way too many benefits and is far too easy to qualify for. Any arcane spellcaster would love Full BAB and Spellcasting + tons of special abilities.
These are things your DM needs to keep in mind. If they just allow things from any book, then yes....you are always going to have overpowered and underpowered characters.
Not a fault of Pathfinder...but again, while Pathfinder is backwards compatible with minimal effort to convert classes and such...it doesn't always mean that everything printed before now is forwards compatible with the balance struck in Pathfinder.
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Let me be a bit more explicit. The feats, the skills, the gear, the whole shebang. :D As if you were providing for an online PbP and the DM needs to see your build.the stats were rolled by the DM and everyone had the same stats.
hold on to your chairs lol they are a bit high.
14
14
15
16
17
18any where you want them.
you really want everything ...the whole character sheet?
Anything that goes into building the overall stats of your character so we can see where the math and/or source is coming from. There are some things that have changed from 3.0 -> 3.5 -> Pathfinder that would essentially become incompatible (like Toughness & Improved Toughness stack, for instance).
It's been tough but I've been working with this DM to try to turn the game around some. I found I had to show him what could be done by doing it in game. So that I could get him to change his mind about some of this crap.
He says, the next game he runs it's going to be PF only so we can hope everything turns out ok.
That sounds like a good idea. Trust me, I've run and played in some games like this...where the DM says "Anything Goes!" and its been a train wreck.
I know that I, as a DM, realized quickly that a lot of the stuff in the Complete series of books must not have been playtested much. If your DM still wants to allow things from various sources, thats fine, but they should definitely reserve the right to refuse certain classes and such.
Especially when it falls into the "Everyone must have this feat/class/etc". Thats the big pitfall.
So, you're essentially showing him that 3.5 is the broken system and that by cutting a lot of stuff and using a lot of discretion when it comes to 3.5's expanded material, PFRPG is actually a really good game?
You're Munchkining for the greater good?!
Well said!
<checks for blood within the froth>
you mentioned 3.0 ..we even have a Exalted Deed Vow of Poverty monk in the group
Honestly though...the Vow of Poverty was a great idea...but so poorly executed. I'm not even sure if there is a way that kind of concept could be done right mechanically for a game like this.
Another thing....
Food for thought for your DM. For anyone who ever asked me about such a thing as that unmentionable Vow...
Before I would ever even consider something of the sort, that character had better, through serious and long term roleplay, show their dedication to their deity, faith and the donation of wealth. Its the book of Exalted Deeds...your character had better be 'Exalted' or Saintly.
I think a lot of DMs allow stuff from that book and the BoVD without realizing that if these are supposed to reflect the evilest and most noble folk in the multiverse...then anyone taking these Feat/Class/etc had better be the epitome of those ideals.
And if a player isn't willing to roleplay it, then no freaking way.
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Doppelganger character was made from Races of Destiny D&D
Feats
1st Nymphs Kiss +1 skill point a lvl, +2 to Cha skills, +1 to saves
1st Toughness
3rd Item Familiar
5th Craft wondrous item
7th Magical Artisan
9th Roll with it (Savage Species) give DR 2/- stack able
10th lvl Doppelganger give me a race feat for being 5th lvl in it.
Improved Toughness
Mr. Fishy is not above chewing on a boat. If you want us to tell you if "WE" think that you DM's game is a broken train wreak then you should already know.
Now about that munchkin character sheet Mr. Fishy hasn't eaten a munchkin in some time, so gemme the sheet or Mr. Fishy will be forced to look else were for a playmate. Hmmmm, and one seen V.
,So 30% off for making aligned or a certain class usable and 10% off for attaching a skill to the item then they half the price of the item and that's the cost to create said item.So I made a Headband of INT,Wis,Cha item costing 144k for around 25k with no xp cost.
And another thing I have a Doppelganger 5 levels and Cleric 3 levels, Warshaper prestige lvl 2 at = 10th lvl with 140 Hit points.
That's bit crazy oh and a 39 AC
We want that guy.
You're rolling your hit points each level or is there an adjucation of how much you're allotted each progression? It's just looking like a lot of max more than mini.
And I'd like to see how you're hitting that 39 AC.
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You're rolling your hit points each level or is there an adjucation of how much you're allotted each progression? It's just looking like a lot of max more than mini.
And I'd like to see how you're hitting that 39 AC.
we would role the HP and if we roled low the DM would roll and we'd take that role. Also I forgot he gave everyone at first lvl +6hp, why I have no ideal.
Umm, what was the question? Give Mr. Fishy the sheet and he'll take a look. Mr. Fishy is solid on the rules but home rules and I forgets mud the water. Mr. Fishy can only comment on the rules and the counting ability of the poster.
I think roleplaying game rules need some kind of warning label on them like they do with over-the-counter meds:
Do not use...
- with any other rules containing armor class bonuses (prescription or nonprescription). If you are not sure whether the rule contains armor class bonuses, ask a rules lawyer or pharmacist.
- if you are allergic to armor class bonuses or any of the flavor text in this product.
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we would role the HP and if we roled low the DM would roll and we'd take that role. Also I forgot he gave everyone at first lvl +6hp, why I have no ideal.You're rolling your hit points each level or is there an adjucation of how much you're allotted each progression? It's just looking like a lot of max more than mini.
And I'd like to see how you're hitting that 39 AC.
The AC Item Familiar is a Chain shirt I dumped a lot of gold into.
Chain Shirt +5, Darkwood Shield +2, Dastana +1 to AC, Dex +5, Ring of protection +3, Ioun Stone +1 insight, Natural AC +3 and Item +3 to Nat AC
Equals AC 39
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we would role the HP and if we roled low the DM would roll and we'd take that role. Also I forgot he gave everyone at first lvl +6hp, why I have no ideal.You're rolling your hit points each level or is there an adjucation of how much you're allotted each progression? It's just looking like a lot of max more than mini.
And I'd like to see how you're hitting that 39 AC.
The AC Item Familiar is a Chain shirt I dumped a lot of gold into.
Chain Shirt +5, Darkwood Shield +2, Dastana +1 to AC, Dex +5, Ring of protection +3, Ioun Stone +1 insight, Natural AC +3 and Item +3 to Nat AC
Equals AC 39
been awhile but if dastana are the armored sleeves from Oriental Adventures, they are a shield bonus so won't stack with the darkwood shield.
That'll do it.
Now just find a Sacred bonus to AC and you're set.
I think Tessius might be right about the Dastana...but its been a while since I looked at them. Either way, its still a 38 or 39.