Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
What I'm really focussing on here is where do you draw the line with the phrase '...study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.'
An illusionary wall I understand. It looks real to the layperson viewing it. and it fails when they try to touch it.
When exactly are you 'interacting' with it?
If I used it to cover my escape, are you interacting with it when you round the corner and wonder where did I dissapear? or does it remain until my pursuer stops and wonders about the far wall? or when he decides to make a 'sweep of the room'
Or how about my illusionary bear skin rug I've placed over a 10 x10 pit. If you charge me when do you get your saving throw? when you step on the rug? when you are about to step on the rug? when you begin the charge? when you decide to attack?
Or if the monk wants to leap from the bannister, grab the illusionary chandelier and swing to the opposite ledge. does he get a saving throw before he commits the the leap?
How much work (do you think) has to be put toward an action before it is 'interaction'
Batts
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss.
Based on the description of the failure I would say that the first observation of the illusion is when you receive your Will save.
However from the description of the success it makes it sound like you need to look at it closely or perhaps try to touch it in some way to get the save.
The language in Illusions leave a lot open to GM interpretation.
I think it's a bit of a case by case bases. For your chandelier grabbing Monk I would allow a Will save as he's not likely to leap and grab a normal chandelier if it appears to be shoddy and unstable so clearly he must be appraising it before the actual jump. If he fails his Will save then I suppose he just didn't look close enough...
If you had a 100ft hallway and there's a 5ft wide hallway that branches off but is covered by an Illusory Wall, and the PC just "walks down the hallway" I don't think they would get a save as there was no real reason they would be inspecting the entire thing. If they called for a Perception check of the hallway to search it then a save would be appropriate as the act of inspecting is clearly stated. (An elf would of course make the check automatically as they pass that area)
[Edit]How your PC's interact with the objects is what I believe to be a good judge of their interaction with it.
GM: "You walk up to a hut, it appears to be rather shabby. A tall oak stands beside it looking majestic and well taken care of. You see some smoke coming from a crude chimney."
-the tree is actually a figment covering a hole in the ground-
PC: "Ok cool, I charge up to the door, kick it down and brandish my greatsword menacingly!"
...No save for detecting the tree/hole.
What I'm really focussing on here is where do you draw the line with the phrase '...study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.'
I take interact to mean touching or touched by, in most cases. For Ghost Sounds, it would be when heard. Your questions seem to be about Figments, which are a sub-class of Illusions so I will quote from the PRD-
"Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly."
A Wil save to disbelieve is moot whenever a figment has obviously been exposed as not being real- such as by stepping through an illusionary wall.
An illusionary wall I understand. It looks real to the layperson viewing it. and it fails when they try to touch it. ....If I used it to cover my escape, are you interacting with it when you round the corner and wonder where did I dissapear? or does it remain until my pursuer stops and wonders about the far wall? or when he decides to make a 'sweep of the room'
For an illusionary wall, you get a Wil save by studying it carefuly.
Or how about my illusionary bear skin rug I've placed over a 10 x10 pit. If you charge me when do you get your saving throw? when you step on the rug? when you are about to step on the rug? when you begin the charge? when you decide to attack?
you get a Wil save if you study the 10' by 10' bear skin rug carefully, if you charge over it you would also get one, but it will be moot if you fall through the rug into the pit.
Or if the monk wants to leap from the bannister, grab the illusionary chandelier and swing to the opposite ledge. does he get a saving throw before he commits the the leap?
Only if he studies it carefully before hand.
How much work (do you think) has to be put toward an action before it is 'interaction'
I interpret 'Study Carefully' as a Standard Action taken when a player declares that he is going to examine something carefully (or some similar statement), but I'm not sure if it is specified in the rules.
Interaction isn't a specific sort of thing, but it includes touching or affected by the Illusion.
Or say one character witnesses another character who saved vs the illusion walk through the illusory wall... would he then get an immediate save with a bonus to said save?
...and do illusory objects actually support weight if you don't disbelieve them? ie, would you fall into a pit if you jumped onto an illusory overhang that you believe to be real, or would you simply fall through it like a hologram?
Interesting questions...
Or say one character witnesses another character who saved vs the illusion walk through the illusory wall... would he then get an immediate save with a bonus to said save?
Yes, unless the DM ruled that it had been exposed as obviously fake, in which case the save is moot.
...and do illusory objects actually support weight if you don't disbelieve them? ie, would you fall into a pit if you jumped onto an illusory overhang that you believe to be real, or would you simply fall through it like a hologram?
No, they do not support weight.
Or say one character witnesses another character who saved vs the illusion walk through the illusory wall... would he then get an immediate save with a bonus to said save?
Yes, with a +4 bonus.
...and do illusory objects actually support weight if you don't disbelieve them? ie, would you fall into a pit if you jumped onto an illusory overhang that you believe to be real, or would you simply fall through it like a hologram?
Only a shadow illusion can have real qualities. The rest you would fall through. As an example a shadow Wall of Force cast with the Shades spell would support weight.
There's a distance between "studied carefully" and "give an appraising glance."
A monk looking at a chandelier and judging whether it would hold his weight is going to be looking at the thickness of the rope holding it up, the construction of the bars, and several other factors, most especially his own weight. There are chandeliers that would support a halfling but that would likely snap if a human swung from them.
Seeing an illusion of a chandelier sturdy enough to swing on is like seeing an illusion of a bear skin rug covering an open pit: There's no cause to disbelieve until you discover that the thing does not support weight. At that point, disbelief is automatic.
There's no reason why an illusionist would make an illusion of shoddy construction that no one in their right mind would trust their weight to unless it was to disguise perfectly good construction, like making the nice secure staircase look like a termite-riddled deathtrap.
I would grant the Wil save anytime a player makes it clear that he is taking time to study a figment carefully, whether he is eyeing it for sturdiness, appraising it's value or whatever.
Not sure if that is agreeing with you or not.
There's a distance between "studied carefully" and "give an appraising glance."
A monk looking at a chandelier and judging whether it would hold his weight is going to be looking at the thickness of the rope holding it up, the construction of the bars, and several other factors, most especially his own weight. There are chandeliers that would support a halfling but that would likely snap if a human swung from them.
Seeing an illusion of a chandelier sturdy enough to swing on is like seeing an illusion of a bear skin rug covering an open pit: There's no cause to disbelieve until you discover that the thing does not support weight. At that point, disbelief is automatic.
There's no reason why an illusionist would make an illusion of shoddy construction that no one in their right mind would trust their weight to unless it was to disguise perfectly good construction, like making the nice secure staircase look like a termite-riddled deathtrap.
Right, but he's still appraising it and giving it more then a passing glance. When it comes to a situation like this where the rules are vague I find it's more enjoyable for the parties involved to give the player the benefit of the doubt. I usually go with a Will save any time an Illusion can lead to a PC hurting themselves. Which is pretty standard fair for traps. Even a trap where the floor spontaneously falls out from under you is going to give you a Reflex save.
In the end though, this is loose language and will lead to a loose interpretation that should be decided on by each GM for their group. Until there's an errate that says, [Illusions only incur their Will save if a Standard action is used to inspect them or as part of a Perception check].
Right, but he's still appraising it and giving it more then a passing glance. When it comes to a situation like this where the rules are vague I find it's more enjoyable for the parties involved to give the player the benefit of the doubt.
I'd still rule that he would need a standard action to check if it can hold or not and announce that if he goes for it, there is a chance it might not hold him. I don't tell him that this chance is 100% since it's an illusion of course ;-)
If he does spend the standard action to study, he would get the will save. Maybe I will be more lenient if he would fall to his death, but if it's just a couple of floors, a couple d6, it's perfectly in line with the level of the spell.
Wow, my DMs have always played illusion magic as far more powerful than they actually are apparently.
Example: One character who made the save picks up the other character who failed the save and physically forces them through the wall... my DMs always said that the character who failed the save would hit the "solid" wall and not be able to go through.
There was a very good advice column on the use of illusions at WotC site, the article is a couple of year's old but should still exist in the archives.
Here's the archive you mention
Rules of the Game
It's 3.5 but these articles are mainly them talking about how the rules are read and most of that has stayed the same. You're looking for the All About Illusion pages.