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Re: Channel energy and charisma


Rules Questions

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Happler wrote:
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Happler wrote:

Just a little devils advocate here.

The spell states this:

Quote:
The transmuted creature becomes more poised, articulate, and personally forceful. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma, adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell's effect do increase.

Do spells not commonly act as specifics that over ride the general rules?

The spell states that the +4 enhancement bonus to charisma adds "the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill checks and other uses of the Charisma modifier."

It does not state that it follows the normal, temporary attribute bonus rules. In fact, it seems to say that it grants the bonus for all "other uses of the charisma modifier".

Now, this is just me being pedantic, but I could see either reading, especially with how often spell mechanics override general rules.

(please note, I would probably play it the other way (no additional channels), just for less to track in game).

The book says "other uses of the charisma modifier" and then the next sentence outlines what those "other uses of the charisma modifier" are. Then you say "all 'other uses of the charisma mofier.'" The "all" is yours, not the book's.

So, it does not effect any part of channel then (DC or count). By that reading, here is a list of things that it would not effect:

Divine Grace (paladin)
Lay on Hands (paladin)
Smite Evil (paladin)
Channel (Paladin/Cleric)

As these are neither skills or spells. Which is all that the spell lists, other then the phrase "other uses of the Charisma modifier".

It does affect channel DC's, because the glossary on temporary bonuses says it does. A spell can specify additional things which are not included in the glossary entry, and it can specify if the spell does not give one or more of the normal benefits of a temporary bonus, but it can not give benefits that are not spelled out in either place. First you infer channel energy uses per day, because nothing specifically names that as something which is not increased, then you infer that since the spell does not specify a benefit which is common to all temporary bonuses that the spell disallows that benefit.

You can play the game of inferring things which are not implied all over the rule book, but it does not make your inferences true.

Shadow Lodge

Actually, I wouldn't think it would be that hard to take a look at some NPC stat blocks (anyone with books readily available) to find a mention of something not specified in that explanation that is being bumped to varify for us all.

Something like ______ deals an extra 3 points while Smiting, (5 with Eagle's Splendor cast) or something like that.

At this point, I'm not saying the #/Day would increase, but prooving one way or the other that that specificl list in not all inclusive.

I would assume that Divine Grace or Lay on Hands would be the easiest, but a Bard's Bardic stuff might also be easy?


Beckett wrote:

Actually, I wouldn't think it would be that hard to take a look at some NPC stat blocks (anyone with books readily available) to find a mention of something not specified in that explanation that is being bumped to varify for us all.

Something like ______ deals an extra 3 points while Smiting, (5 with Eagle's Splendor cast) or something like that.

At this point, I'm not saying the #/Day would increase, but prooving one way or the other that that specificl list in not all inclusive.

I would assume that Divine Grace or Lay on Hands would be the easiest, but a Bard's Bardic stuff might also be easy?

So, go find some examples. It is in your hands to prove the positive, because proving a negative is impossible.

Shadow Lodge

I'm deployed, and I can't look at books readily. Hence me asking. And I'm actually asking to prove one way or the other. I could be wrong. I just do not think your reasoning is sound or valid.


All the content from all the books is right on this web site:

PRD


Beckett wrote:
I can't look at books readily. Hence me asking. And I'm actually asking to prove one way or the other.

You'll accept the lack of text as proof?

High Priest CR 12
Special Attacks channel positive energy 5/day (DC 18, 7d6)
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 24, Cha 14
Combat Gear ...wand of eagle's splendor (50 charges)

Shadow Lodge

If there where a portion that stated a second set of stats from buffs, maybe.

The DC is Half Cleric level (6) plus Cha Mod (2), so the Wand is not accounted for.

13th level cleric normally deals 7d6 with Channel Energy, and 3+2 (Cha) = 5/Day Channels. It doesn't say one way or the other.


So I wonder how you would handle this:
- You normally have 5 channels per day.
- You cast eagle's splendor, now have 7 channels per day
- You spend all of them in the duration
-> Now you have spent two more than you usually have. What if he casts it again? Does he get channels again? Basically unlimited (pearls of power) per day?

I consider the case settled according to what I said beofre. Have fun all :-)

Shadow Lodge

I'm still going by the FAQ, which specifically answers this issue. It doesn't work. Any extra Channel uses for the day are a one time thing. Even if you get a higher bonus later, you still used them already.

Specific Part:
"Casting eagle’s splendor increases his Charisma to 16, which would grant 6 attempts per day. At the end of the spell, however, his daily limit would drop back down to 4 attempts. At that point, the player must compare the number of daily uses expended to the daily limit to see if any still remain. Here’s how that might work in play. Our cleric turns undead twice, then casts eagle’s splendor right before a big fight with a horde of zombies. During the duration of the spell, he makes four more turning checks. When the spell ends, he compares his new daily limit (4) to the number of attempts used (6)—whoops, no turns left. Hope all the undead have been destroyed, because even if the cleric cast eagle’s splendor again, he wouldn’t have any more turning attempts available, since he’s already used all 6 of his allotted attempts. If he could increase his Charisma to 18, he’d “gain” one more turning attempt (since he has now used 6 out of his allotted 7 daily attempts), usable only during the duration of the Charisma boosting effect."


Beckett wrote:

I'm still going by the FAQ, which specifically answers this issue. It doesn't work. Any extra Channel uses for the day are a one time thing. Even if you get a higher bonus later, you still used them already.

** spoiler omitted **

It looks like a D&D 3.5 FAQ. If that is the case, it is not valid. Pathfinder is its own game with - in part - very different rules and different concepts :-)


Beckett wrote:
And I disagree. I think you are all ignoring the part that indicates it does and insisting on adding your interpritation of and changes when they are not there.

I'm saying that in 3.5e there was only one type of stat increase effect, and in Pathfinder there are two (temporary and permanent). Are you trying to say that this is not considered a change?

Shadow Lodge

Yes, I am saying that it is not a change, there where both in 3.5 as well. In 3.5, for example, a temp boost to Int did not grant you more "temporary" skill points. Only Permanent boost did. They also did not grant you additional spells, because they did not last 24 hours (so would not last through the entire day -> rest -> spell prep -> adventuring day.


Beckett wrote:
In 3.5, for example, a temp boost to Int did not grant you more "temporary" skill points. Only Permanent boost did.

Are you sure?

D&D 3.5 Ability Scores: "A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence."

Shadow Lodge

That is correct.

Such an

Item:
Headband of Intellect
This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points.

Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6).

would not grant you extra skill points with each level. Also note this is something that PathFinder did change, so that the Headband of mental Prowess does grant a bonus in 1 skill per +2 to Int.

I could be wrong, but I believe

THIS:
Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

was the exception.


Beckett, you have just proven yourself wrong. You stated that pathfinder's separation of temporary and permanent bonuses was carried over from 3.5, but you have just shown that there were no permanent bonuses: items and spells had the exact same effect on everything, and the only exception was inherent bonuses, which functioned identically to increases in stats gained every 4 levels, with the exception that any one stat was limited to a maximum of +5 inherent bonus.

So, to look to the 3.5 faq for what the comparative effects of temporary and permanent stat bonuses are, and then state that as authoritative for pathfinder is erroneous, because in 3.5 all stat bonuses were temporary, and there was no such division between temporary and permanent stat bonuses.

Shadow Lodge

Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Beckett, you have just proven yourself wrong.

Not really.

You are interpritting it to mean this:
PS: I used CAPS and <> to indicate something I added to the original text, and *___* to show I removed something.

what I think you (general you) think:
"Ability Score Bonuses
* *Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses <AND DO NOT CHANGE YOUR ABILITY SCORES OR ANYTHING DERIVED FROM THEM, EXCEPT AS NOTED>. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability<, EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF TEMPORARY ABILITY SCORES>.

Strength: Temporary increases * * to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense <only>.

Dexterity: Temporary increases * * applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense <only>.

Constitution: Temporary * * gives you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points <only>.

Intelligence: Temporary increases * * give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks and spell DCs based on Intelligence <only>.

Wisdom: Temporary increases * * give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws and spell DCs based on Wisdom <only>.

Charisma: Temporary increases * * give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks and spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy <only>.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."

While my interpritation is more along these lines:

what I think I think:
"Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability <TEMPORARY OR NOT>.

Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense, <AS WELL AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED "and statistics listed with the relevant ability">.

Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense, <AS WELL AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED "and statistics listed with the relevant ability">.

Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points, <AS WELL AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED "and statistics listed with the relevant ability">.

Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence, <AS WELL AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED "and statistics listed with the relevant ability">.

Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom, <AS WELL AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED "and statistics listed with the relevant ability">.

Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy, <AS WELL AS THE ABOVE MENTIONED "and statistics listed with the relevant ability">.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score <ONLY> after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points <notice me above in the Temp Con bonus?> , and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."


You have what I think completely wrong. What I think is exactly what you wrote for what you think. The difference is our interpretation of "and statistics listed with the relevant ability." Statistics are numbers which are rolled against, such as ability scores, saves, AC, attack modifiers, skills, DC's, etc. Numbers of spell slots, number of uses of Spell Like Abilities, Supernatural and Extraordinary Abilities are not statistics. (You do not ever roll dice related number of these resources, thus you are not taking a statistical sampling based on these numbers.)

Simple enough, we have found where we differ. It is in how we interpret the use of the word "statistics" in that one sentence.

Shadow Lodge

Negative, because I also believe that Non-Spell and Channeling DC's would be affected, as well as other things that would apply to "statistics" such as a Paladins Divine Grace or the DCs of arious Oracle abilities based off of Cha. The difference is that you dont think the score actually changes, just that the listed things are all that get a bonus from Temporary Ability score changes.

I think that the ability does actually change, and everything based off of it, (with a few exceptions like Skill Points and spells) also change for the duration, the ones listed are just a quick reference, and that over all this was the same as in 3E, (the changes being in other portions of the rules, particularly skill points).

:)


Actually, I have always thought that dc's of divine grace and oracle abilities and other dc's based on ability scores were intended to be included, but were overlooked, thus I said I thought it was RAI but not RAW. But you brought to my attention the phrase "and statistics listed with the relevant ability", which makes me change my stance on those from it is RAI but not RAW, to it is RAI and it is RAW.

However, numbers of uses of special abilities granted by ability scores does not seem to fit into the definition of "statistics" to me, so I still say they do not increase.

You have convinced me of part of your argument, and I think the rest of our disagreement comes down to semantics, and that can only be resolved by elaboration by the developers, as I don't think either of us is going to convince the other past this point.

Shadow Lodge

Fair enough. I'm just argueing because it pushes me to evaluate and learn myself. At worst, I'll be wrong.

:)

RAI as also a very fickle thing.


Hey, I argue for the same reason. I'm sure many people take me to be a loud-mouth jerk, but I look at it as the dialectic process.

It's good to have an adversary who relishes the debate as much as I. "And for this, we thank you."

Shadow Lodge

And you, though I wouldn't say adversary.


Beckett wrote:
That is correct.

You claimed that in 3.5 a permanent boost to intelligence would grant skill ranks. (Despite there not being any permanent/temporary bonuses in 3.5)

I quoted the 3.5 rule stating that you never get retroactive skill ranks by increasing intelligence.

Unless you can find a rule (with link, please) stating otherwise, you're wrong.

Beckett wrote:
I think that the ability does actually change

They do, after 24 hours.

"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours."

That quote means that the relevant ability score doesn't increase before 24 hours.

If "statistics listed" includes everything, then what exactly is the difference between a temporary and permanent bonus?

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Core Rulebook, Glossary, page 554 wrote:

Ability Score Bonuses

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.

That's what you get. For example, I don't see anything in there about a temporary Charisma bonus giving you additional uses of {Cha bonus}/day abilities.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Core Rulebook, Glossary, page 554 wrote:

Ability Score Bonuses

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
That's what you get. For example, I don't see anything in there about a temporary Charisma bonus giving you additional uses of {Cha bonus}/day abilities.

Sean,

Would you get an increase to DC's of class abilities not specifically mentioned here? (ie. it specifies Channel Energy DC's, but says nothing about Oracle Mysteries, or Bard's Suggestion(Sp) ability.)

The reason I ask is because of this phrase in the second sentence of the ability score bonuses: "apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." What exactly qualifies as a statistic in this case? Is it only the things listed after each ability score in the paragraph, or is it more inclusive than that?

Shadow Lodge

Grick wrote:

You claimed that in 3.5 a permanent boost to intelligence would grant skill ranks. (Despite there not being any permanent/temporary bonuses in 3.5)

I quoted the 3.5 rule stating that you never get retroactive skill ranks by increasing intelligence.

Unless you can find a rule (with link, please) stating otherwise, you're wrong.

No I didn't actually. I said that they didn't, and that was a change in how Paizo handled it (some items grant the equivalent in a bonus on a skill), but I did not say that they granted skills in 3E. Someone else implied it and I said no, except in Inherent and Racial bonuses I believe, and a few uncommon cases like age. Your mixing up the arguement that I did say temporary and permanent bonuses DID exist in 3E also.

Grick wrote:
Beckett wrote:
I think that the ability does actually change

They do, after 24 hours.

"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours."

That quote means that the relevant ability score doesn't increase before 24 hours.

If "statistics listed" includes everything, then what exactly is the difference between a temporary and permanent bonus?

That is correct, and exactly what I say. If you suggest that only the specific things listed in Temp bonuses increase, the only way that could be true is to ignor every time it says that the stat icreases, which also includes under each and every temp bonus for the stat.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I don't see anything in there about a temporary Charisma bonus giving you additional uses of {Cha bonus}/day abilities.

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.

Comparred to things like:

"Channel Energy: . . . A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."

"Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws."

"Lay On Hands: . . . Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier."

"Revelations: An oracle with the battle mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.

Battlecry (Ex): As a standard action, you can unleash an inspiring battlecry. All allies within 100 feet who hear your cry gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier."

"Revelations: An oracle with a flame mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.
. . .
Fire Breath (Su): As a standard action, you can unleash a 15-foot cone of flame from your mouth. This flame deals 1d4 points of fire damage per level. A Reflex save halves this damage. You can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time per day at 5th level and every five levels thereafter. The save DC is Charisma-based."

"Assassin: . . .
Class Features: . . .
Death Attack (Ex): If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies."

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 9 people marked this as a favorite.
Mabven the OP healer wrote:

Would you get an increase to DC's of class abilities not specifically mentioned here? (ie. it specifies Channel Energy DC's, but says nothing about Oracle Mysteries, or Bard's Suggestion(Sp) ability.)

The reason I ask is because of this phrase in the second sentence of the ability score bonuses: "apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." What exactly qualifies as a statistic in this case? Is it only the things listed after each ability score in the paragraph, or is it more inclusive than that?
...

The term "statistics" in this case refers to the things called out in the stuff I quoted for Strength, Dexterity, and so on. That intro paragraph is explaining how to do the general math when you get an ability score increase, the paragraphs beneath are explaining exactly what gets boosted when you boost that ability score.

I spoke with Jason and he says that the Charisma section's failure to mention Cha-based saves that aren't spells (such as bard performance DCs) is an oversight and it should apply to Charisma-based DCs. Likewise, an Int boost affects Int-based DCs, and so on.

We can't give an exhaustive list of every single ability in the game and whether or not a temporary boost affects it, but we can give you these two guidelines:

(1) It should affect DCs based on that ability score modifier.
(2) It should affect rolls modified by that ability score modifier, such as Str mod affecting melee attack rolls and Wis mod affecting Will saves.
(3) It should not affect abilities that treat an ability score modifier as a "consumable." In this context, a "consumable" is one where your number of uses per round/day/week/whatever is based on the ability score or its modifier, such as channel energy uses per day, wizard school abilities usable {Int bonus} per day, bardic performance rounds per day, barbarian rage rounds per day, and so on.

Everything else is on a case-by-case basis up to GM discretion, but avoiding (3) is much more important than limiting it to (1) and (2).

This means you could eagle's splendor to temporarily improve a paladin's divine grace ability, because that falls under the category of (2). Likewise, this means a temporary bonus to an oracle's Charisma should increase the DC of the oracle's revelations (even though oracle revelations weren't invented at the time the Core Rulebook was written).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Does the same sort of thing apply to penalties? For example, I seem to recall strength damage from a shadow doesn't actually change your carrying capacity.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What about Selective Channeling, Sean? Would eagle's splendor mean you could exclude more individuals from your channeling?


Sean,

Thank you for the in-depth clarification of the effects of temporary ability bonuses. I think it is very clear now. I guess I did read the rules correctly, except for the part about all ability-based dc's being affected, although I did say I thought that was RAI if not RAW. I would put this in the win column for Beckett, as he successfully changed my mind through good rhetoric about ability-based DC's not mentioned, even though his assertion that uses-per-day was wrong.

@Cheapy: carrying capacity is not a DC or a roll.

@Joana: The amount of people you can exclude with selective channeling is not a DC or a roll, so no.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
Does the same sort of thing apply to penalties? For example, I seem to recall strength damage from a shadow doesn't actually change your carrying capacity.

It makes sense to apply it to ability score penalties/damage/drain as well.

Joana wrote:
What about Selective Channeling, Sean? Would eagle's splendor mean you could exclude more individuals from your channeling?

I would allow that. Can anyone think of other cases where it's not a DC or a roll, like Str and carrying capacity?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm. The point at which you die. Does temp con affect your negative con?

Andoran

Feat prerequisite's?


AOOs per round with temp dex? Seems like that ought to go up, but you did include "per round" in #3 above.


Flashohol wrote:
Feat prerequisite's?

Feat prereqs definitely can NOT rely on temp bonuses.


oneplus999 wrote:
AOOs per round with temp dex? Seems like that ought to go up, but you did include "per round" in #3 above.

That's a good one.

Shadow Lodge

I don't really see it as a competition, so no win or lose. But I appriciate the thought.

However, I will say that it seems like an arbitrary answer. One that also contradicts the RAI (original) and the RAW (original and current). It's not a personal attack, but if that's going to be the ruling, I really suggest you remove any mention of increasing the ability scores for Temp affects and instead start specifying exactly what sorts of things increase.

It also leaves the Paladins Divine Grace up for question. It doesn't apply to any of the criteria mentioned.

Carrying Capacity and Death at Neg. Con are things I mentioned earlier. Sometimes there are cases where you compare modifiers directly, (tying Initiative), or that are based directly off of a score or the amount of a bonus. The only other things I can think of are similar situations to Selective Channeling, many Feats/Abilities/Spells/Etc. . . are based off a formula like # + Ability Mod.

Attacks of Oppertunity, for example. Stunning Fist for Monks, I believe. Seems odd that one set of things on that formula would work, while others on the same formula would not.


I think what we are coming up with at this point is feats which use an ability score as a coefficient. I think if this ends up as an errata, perhaps what needs to be errata'd is the feats themselves need to specify if they are affected by temporary ability bonuses, as it would be impossible to make a global judgement such as "feats which have limited uses and/or targets based on ability score." I'm sure it could be worded better, but even worded as well as possible, it would still be open to rampant misinterpretation. Feats are just too varied in the ways they could possibly be affected by ability score, perhaps in new content, in ways we could not even think of beforehand.


Beckett wrote:

I don't really see it as a competition, so no win or lose.

However, I will say that it seems like an arbitrary answer. One that also contradicts the RAI (original) and the RAW (original and current).

It also leaves the Paladins Divine Grace up for question. It doesn't apply to any of the criteria mentioned.

Carrying Capacity and Death at Neg. Con are things I mentioned earlier. Sometimes there are cases where you compare modifiers directly, (tying Initiative), or that are based directly off of a score or the amount of a bonus.

Actually, Sean specifically called out divine grace when he said "This means you could eagle's splendor to temporarily improve a paladin's divine grace ability, because that falls under the category of (2)"

Shadow Lodge

Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Actually, Sean specifically called out divine grace when he said "This means you could eagle's splendor to temporarily improve a paladin's divine grace ability, because that falls under the category of (2)"

I could have sworn I saw that on my first read through, and then couldn't find it. Thanks :)

<also edited what your quoted. Hate when that happens>

<and re-edit, I see a lot more people already said something I was editing. . .> :(

Andoran

Feat Stuff,

Example 1:
Barbarian with 16 Str takes Power attack. Then dies... Then get's reincarnated into a kobold now str 12, could he/she use a temporary str boost, say rage or bulls str, to power attack again?

Example 2:
Could a permanant bonus allow you to take a feat you don't normaly meet say belt of dex +x and the TWF tree, and if you lost the belt could a temporary bonus allow you to TWF/ITWF/GTWF again?

Shadow Lodge

Flashohol wrote:

Feat Stuff,

Example 1:
Barbarian with 16 Str takes Power attack. Then dies... Then get's reincarnated into a kobold now str 12, could he/she use a temporary str boost, say rage or bulls str, to power attack again?

Example 2:
Could a permanant bonus allow you to take a feat you don't normaly meet say belt of dex +x and the TWF tree, and if you lost the belt could a temporary bonus allow you to TWF/ITWF/GTWF again?

In 3E, yes in both cases. Again, in both cases, you would not lose the Feat, but would not be able to use it, (nor any other Feat that had either str/dex or Power Attack/Two-Weapon Fighting as a prereq) until you met all requirements again. That included things like a temp Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace, but would vanish again with the spell.


Yes in both cases for pathfinder as well.

Shadow Lodge

Not necissarily if they are ruling only certain parts get the bonus.


It has been established that in PFRPG, if you have a feat which has an ability requirement, and then your ability score is decreased permanently, you lose use of the feat, but if you ever have a temporary bonus bringing it back above the required stat, you may use the feat again for the duration of the temporary bonus. It has also been established that you can qualify for feats with ability score requirements if you meet the requirement with any combination of raw ability score and permanent bonus. If you take off the item, you lose use of the feat, but gain it back when you put the item back on.

Andoran

would a temp. penalty also cause you to lose the use of a feat?
Say from Ray of Enfeeblment and/or Fatigue.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here's the word on feats, etc


Flashohol wrote:

would a temp. penalty also cause you to lose the use of a feat?

Say from Ray of Enfeeblment and/or Fatigue.

That is a good question. I have not seen any ruling on this, but if the logic extends, then I guess you would temporarily lose use of the feat. I await correction from someone who knows better.


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No you do not since penalties don't actually lower the stat only drain does that.

Ability Damage wrote:


Ability Score Damage

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

Ability penalties wrote:


Ability Score Penalties

Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.

Ability Drain wrote:


Ability Drain

Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.

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